How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron?

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How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#1 » by Matt15 » Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:26 am

How many years of Kobe would you take over 2011 Lebron?
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#2 » by One_and_Done » Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:41 am

Zero.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#3 » by ardee » Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:37 am

2006-09 and then maybe 2001 I would say.

2011 was a strange year from LeBron, sandwiched between a pair of GOAT-level seasons on either side... 2011 was kind of back down to 2008 level I would say, or maybe slightly better, but still on a level I would take peak Kobe over.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#4 » by 1993Playoffs » Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:38 am

Probably zero
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#5 » by TheGOATRises007 » Sat Jun 15, 2024 10:02 am

Maybe 2008 or 2009.

2011 LeBron gets severely underrated. He was still the best player in the league despite the finals meltdown.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#6 » by One_and_Done » Sat Jun 15, 2024 10:31 am

TheGOATRises007 wrote:Maybe 2008 or 2009.

2011 LeBron gets severely underrated. He was still the best player in the league despite the finals meltdown.

If any version of Kobe was on the 2011 Heat instead, they don't make it to the finals to begin with.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#7 » by Texas Chuck » Sat Jun 15, 2024 12:26 pm

easily zero. This is taking one series against a team that had hte best anti-Lebron plan of all-time plus the horses to make it work and trying to say a clearly inferior player is better than him because of it. Which is especially odd since Kobe has quite a few stinker playoff series of his own.

Lebron was just a flat better player than Kobe and that is okay. We don't have to force this.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#8 » by thebigbird » Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:19 pm

Easily zero. LeBron sucked in the finals that year but he was still better than Kobe was in the 2000 finals. LeBron was all-nba first team and all-defensive first team. He should’ve been MVP, imo, but they weren’t going to give it to him that year. He was great in the eastern conference playoffs. His WS/48 in 2011 was higher than any Kobe season. His TS% was higher than any Kobe season. His BPM was higher than any Kobe season. His VORP was higher than all but one Kobe season. His PER was higher than all but one Kobe season.

It really goes to show the gap between LeBron and Kobe as players when even a “down” prime year from LeBron tops basically all of Kobe’s seasons.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#9 » by ardee » Sun Jun 16, 2024 1:49 am

Some of these comments are really ridiculous.

LeBron is easily my GOAT. And probably GOAT peak too. He's well above Kobe on an ATL.

But here we're talking about his weakest prime season, and NOT just one Playoff series.

LeBron in 2011 had put on a bunch of muscle and was notably less explosive than 2009 and 2010. I was actually around on RealGM back then and the earlier iteration of what is now "The LeBron Thread" was "LeBron's athletic decline from Cleveland to Miami."

No one actually thought LeBron really deserved the MVP back during the actual 2011 season. Playing with another MVP candidate + another All-Star yet the team is only 6.6 SRS. Meanwhile 2008 Kobe for instance takes a MUCH weaker cast to a 7.4 SRS.

Of course LeBron's impact was obscured by some fit issues but even so, when you look at team results relative to talent it's utterly insane to claim Kobe didn't provide lift in the same ballpark.

2011 LeBron had real offensive limitations as a player that he didn't fix until the next couple of years, meanwhile 2006 Kobe was one of the most potent offensive forces to ever exist, dragging an abominable cast to a top quartile offense in the league (and he was just as good or better in 2008).

I'm not even saying Kobe was WAY better, but given that in 2011 itself the perception was that LeBron and Wade were roughly equal, and prime Kobe and Wade are also in the same ballpark, the dismisiveness towards Kobe in this thread is pretty insulting.

Edit:

If every LeBron year should he judged as a part of his entire prime and not on its own merit, then where does that leave 2015? Was he the best player then too? Or was the Retro POY project right to give it to Steph (who frankly couldn't compete with most other prime LeBron years) and also let guys like CP3, Harden and Davis get some votes over LeBron?
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#10 » by One_and_Done » Sun Jun 16, 2024 2:10 am

Even though Lebron had a subpar 2011 finals series, and made a mistake trying to play the Magic Johnson role, his series isn't even as bad as it looks once you adjust it for pace. Kobe had many worse series.

Lebron had 18-7-7 on 541 TS%. Which is bad by his standards, but the games were also played at a pace of 85.5. Meanwhile actual Magic Johnson had 21-11-9 on similar efficiency in the 1980 finals, which looks better until you realise the series was played at a 102.4 pace, and remember Lebron is a vastly better defender. Magic was a universally praised finals MVP, because they won. If Lebron's team doesn't blow a big lead they go up 3-0 and they win, then the narrative is totally different.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Sun Jun 16, 2024 3:26 am

One_and_Done wrote:Even though Lebron had a subpar 2011 finals series, and made a mistake trying to play the Magic Johnson role, his series isn't even as bad as it looks once you adjust it for pace. Kobe had many worse series.

Lebron had 18-7-7 on 541 TS%. Which is bad by his standards, but the games were also played at a pace of 85.5. Meanwhile actual Magic Johnson had 21-11-9 on similar efficiency in the 1980 finals, which looks better until you realise the series was played at a 102.4 pace, and remember Lebron is a vastly better defender. Magic was a universally praised finals MVP, because they won. If Lebron's team doesn't blow a big lead they go up 3-0 and they win, then the narrative is totally different.

How to show that you don't watch game without saying that you don't watch games...
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#12 » by One_and_Done » Sun Jun 16, 2024 3:32 am

Strong rebuttal.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#13 » by rk2023 » Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:24 am

One_and_Done wrote:Even though Lebron had a subpar 2011 finals series, and made a mistake trying to play the Magic Johnson role, his series isn't even as bad as it looks once you adjust it for pace. Kobe had many worse series.

Lebron had 18-7-7 on 541 TS%. Which is bad by his standards, but the games were also played at a pace of 85.5. Meanwhile actual Magic Johnson had 21-11-9 on similar efficiency in the 1980 finals, which looks better until you realise the series was played at a 102.4 pace, and remember Lebron is a vastly better defender. Magic was a universally praised finals MVP, because they won. If Lebron's team doesn't blow a big lead they go up 3-0 and they win, then the narrative is totally different.


There’s way too much that missed the plot here, first and foremost - James in the middle of four GOAT peak caliber seasons being compared to rookie, age 20, Magic Johnson.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#14 » by One_and_Done » Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:35 am

rk2023 wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Even though Lebron had a subpar 2011 finals series, and made a mistake trying to play the Magic Johnson role, his series isn't even as bad as it looks once you adjust it for pace. Kobe had many worse series.

Lebron had 18-7-7 on 541 TS%. Which is bad by his standards, but the games were also played at a pace of 85.5. Meanwhile actual Magic Johnson had 21-11-9 on similar efficiency in the 1980 finals, which looks better until you realise the series was played at a 102.4 pace, and remember Lebron is a vastly better defender. Magic was a universally praised finals MVP, because they won. If Lebron's team doesn't blow a big lead they go up 3-0 and they win, then the narrative is totally different.


There’s way too much that missed the plot here, first and foremost - James in the middle of four GOAT peak caliber seasons being compared to rookie, age 20, Magic Johnson.

In 82 Magic had been in the league for 3 years, and again win the title, and his stats pet 100 for the whole playoffs were 20-13-11. Yes, his TS% was 614, but he is also a bad defender while Lebron is an incredible one, and in the 82 finals Magic put up 16-11-8 on worse efficiency than Lebron, with an even higher paced team. Again, Lebron compares much more favourably than ppl would think.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#15 » by Djoker » Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:51 am

One_and_Done wrote:
rk2023 wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Even though Lebron had a subpar 2011 finals series, and made a mistake trying to play the Magic Johnson role, his series isn't even as bad as it looks once you adjust it for pace. Kobe had many worse series.

Lebron had 18-7-7 on 541 TS%. Which is bad by his standards, but the games were also played at a pace of 85.5. Meanwhile actual Magic Johnson had 21-11-9 on similar efficiency in the 1980 finals, which looks better until you realise the series was played at a 102.4 pace, and remember Lebron is a vastly better defender. Magic was a universally praised finals MVP, because they won. If Lebron's team doesn't blow a big lead they go up 3-0 and they win, then the narrative is totally different.


There’s way too much that missed the plot here, first and foremost - James in the middle of four GOAT peak caliber seasons being compared to rookie, age 20, Magic Johnson.

In 82 Magic had been in the league for 3 years, and again win the title, and his stats pet 100 for the whole playoffs were 20-13-11. Yes, his TS% was 614, but he is also a bad defender while Lebron is an incredible one, and in the 82 finals Magic put up 16-11-8 on worse efficiency than Lebron, with an even higher paced team. Again, Lebron compares much more favourably than ppl would think.


No he doesn't compare favorably. The context of the 2011 Finals is that Miami lost the series they were favored in and peak Lebron badly underperformed. By the way, Lebron had a horrible series on the defensive end as well so the "incredible" comment is pretty off base. Even though his per 100 numbers are almost as good as 20-22 year old Magic! :lol:
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#16 » by One_and_Done » Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:54 am

Djoker wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
rk2023 wrote:
There’s way too much that missed the plot here, first and foremost - James in the middle of four GOAT peak caliber seasons being compared to rookie, age 20, Magic Johnson.

In 82 Magic had been in the league for 3 years, and again win the title, and his stats pet 100 for the whole playoffs were 20-13-11. Yes, his TS% was 614, but he is also a bad defender while Lebron is an incredible one, and in the 82 finals Magic put up 16-11-8 on worse efficiency than Lebron, with an even higher paced team. Again, Lebron compares much more favourably than ppl would think.


No he doesn't compare favorably. The context of the 2011 Finals is that Miami lost the series they were favored in and peak Lebron badly underperformed. By the way, Lebron had a horrible series on the defensive end as well so the "incredible" comment is pretty off base. Even though his per 100 numbers are almost as good as 20-22 year old Magic! :lol:

If all we use to judge value is 'who wins' anyone can do that "analysis". Some of us like our context a bit deeper than that. Lebron was excellent on D btw.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#17 » by Djoker » Sun Jun 16, 2024 5:07 am

Ben Taylor tracked the 2011 Finals and Lebron was horrible on D based on those metrics too. Look at defensive FG% and error rate.

Image

Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20110619141153/http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/13/2011-nba-finals-recap-by-expected-value/
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#18 » by 70sFan » Sun Jun 16, 2024 5:28 am

One_and_Done wrote:Strong rebuttal.

What do you expect? You compared LeBron in his absolute prime playing way below his standards and being clearly ineffective to Magic who was a rookie that wasn't expected to play anywhere near as well, all because their per100 stats look similar.

We are in 2024 and you still think comparing raw per100 statslines across 30 years have any value. All of that with your usual sense of superiority.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#19 » by One_and_Done » Sun Jun 16, 2024 5:51 am

70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Strong rebuttal.

What do you expect? You compared LeBron in his absolute prime playing way below his standards and being clearly ineffective to Magic who was a rookie that wasn't expected to play anywhere near as well, all because their per100 stats look similar.

We are in 2024 and you still think comparing raw per100 statslines across 30 years have any value. All of that with your usual sense of superiority.

The era point is important to raise, because while Lebron was close to taking his flawed support cast to a 3-0 lead, Magic's Lakers would have been flayed alive by the 2011 Mavs.
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Re: How Many Years of Kobe over 2011 Lebron? 

Post#20 » by 70sFan » Sun Jun 16, 2024 7:09 am

One_and_Done wrote:
70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Strong rebuttal.

What do you expect? You compared LeBron in his absolute prime playing way below his standards and being clearly ineffective to Magic who was a rookie that wasn't expected to play anywhere near as well, all because their per100 stats look similar.

We are in 2024 and you still think comparing raw per100 statslines across 30 years have any value. All of that with your usual sense of superiority.

The era point is important to raise, because while Lebron was close to taking his flawed support cast to a 3-0 lead, Magic's Lakers would have been flayed alive by the 2011 Mavs.

Completely unrelated to the topic, as always.

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