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Interesting question. Both are forgotten and both were not considered real stars, yet their team won alot, though obviously not winning it all. Kemp's 1996 is his peak and Payton probably 2000. Looks like Payton, with less talent on his team at that time and still performing well but it's close.

Payton—his defense was overrated but his offense underrated.

homecourtloss wrote:Payton—his defense was overrated but his offense underrated.

He's arguably the best defensive PG ever, how's it underrated.

homecourtloss wrote:Payton—his defense was overrated but his offense underrated.

Kemp's defense and offense is underrated, and Payton peaked in a weaker league

migya wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:Payton—his defense was overrated but his offense underrated.

He's arguably the best defensive PG ever, how's it underrated.

His own teammate, a guard, was a better defender. This is what I mean.

migya wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:Payton—his defense was overrated but his offense underrated.

He's arguably the best defensive PG ever, how's it underrated.

Read it again. And again.

migya wrote:Interesting question. Both are forgotten and both were not considered real stars, yet their team won alot, though obviously not winning it all. Kemp's 1996 is his peak and Payton probably 2000. Looks like Payton, with less talent on his team at that time and still performing well but it's close.

GP was definitely considered a real star. And he was also the main cog of those Sonic teams. Kemp was never a lead guy

homecourtloss wrote:

migya wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:Payton—his defense was overrated but his offense underrated.

He's arguably the best defensive PG ever, how's it underrated.

His own teammate, a guard, was a better defender. This is what I mean.

What teammate was better on defense than GP????

I always saw them as having a roughly equal peak. Gun to my head though I think Kemp is slightly more dominant and harder to deal with for an opposing defense while being a very good defensive player plus strong rebounder.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

migya wrote:
He's arguably the best defensive PG ever, how's it underrated.

His own teammate, a guard, was a better defender. This is what I mean.

What teammate was better on defense than GP????

He means nate mcmillan

falcolombardi wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:
His own teammate, a guard, was a better defender. This is what I mean.

What teammate was better on defense than GP????

He means nate mcmillan

Nate was in no way better than GP on defense though

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:What teammate was better on defense than GP????

He means nate mcmillan

Nate was in no way better than GP on defense though

No need wasn't, though he was very good also.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

migya wrote:Interesting question. Both are forgotten and both were not considered real stars, yet their team won alot, though obviously not winning it all. Kemp's 1996 is his peak and Payton probably 2000. Looks like Payton, with less talent on his team at that time and still performing well but it's close.

GP was definitely considered a real star. And he was also the main cog of those Sonic teams. Kemp was never a lead guy

GP only became arguably their best player 1996 onwards, even then Kemp was great in the finals. Peyton took a few years to rdevelop scoring wise. Kemp by 1993 may have been considered their best player.

Gary Payton - one of the greatest defensive basketball players of all time, 'The Glove' was one of the most intimidating point guards I've seen. More durable, consistent and impactful than Kemp at their very best. Payton also boasted a superior two-way game (playmaking and scoring adding to his complete skillset). GP's ball protection, fast-break control and passing actually elevated Kemp's influence, benefiting from Payton's elite vision and perception of space and player movement.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:What teammate was better on defense than GP????

He means nate mcmillan

Nate was in no way better than GP on defense though

Well that seems rather definitive. And McMillan may have some impact data on his side

in '94 McMillan had the league's best plus-minus iirc, and a 13.2 on off, to Payton's -6.2.
'95 McMllan's on-off was 10; Payton's 1.5
'96 McMillan's -2.1; Payton's 5.4.
Obviously that's a 2 way measure and noisy but ... not nothing.
From the 97-14 Googlesites DRAPM McMillan 2.17 ; Payton is -0.16 (in this version negative is bad, positive good).

This doesn't preclude Payton from peaking higher as a defender or perhaps providing more value in a particular season by being on the floor more. McMillan does though have a significant impact signal in the 94-96 window and a significant defensive signal in his later career. Payton's number isn't bad for a point guard and it's hurt by the weak defensive end to his career (though how long it was weak ... "name"-based accolades might hide). Overall, though, it is quite a bit lower than one might expect off reputation.

As far as peak I do think Payton is somewhat hurt by his defensive and offensive peak's perhaps not aligning. RS Kemp is hurt by foul trouble harming his minutes, though around his apex he was closer to a normal stars minutes in the playoffs (... though if one likes 96 for his combination of RS and playoffs [and being in shape unlike later], at 36mpg his playoff numbers is in somewhat of a middle ground ... he'd gone circa 40 in the brief runs in 94 and 95).

Owly wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
He means nate mcmillan

Nate was in no way better than GP on defense though

Well that seems rather definitive. And McMillan may have some impact data on his side

in '94 McMillan had the league's best plus-minus iirc, and a 13.2 on off, to Payton's -6.2.
'95 McMllan's on-off was 10; Payton's 1.5
'96 McMillan's -2.1; Payton's 5.4.
Obviously that's a 2 way measure and noisy but ... not nothing.
From the 97-14 Googlesites DRAPM McMillan 2.17 ; Payton is -0.16 (in this version negative is bad, positive good).

This doesn't preclude Payton from peaking higher as a defender or perhaps providing more value in a particular season by being on the floor more. McMillan does though have a significant impact signal in the 94-96 window and a significant defensive signal in his later career. Payton's number isn't bad for a point guard and it's hurt by the weak defensive end to his career (though how long it was weak ... "name"-based accolades might hide). Overall, though, it is quite a bit lower than one might expect off reputation.

As far as peak I do think Payton is somewhat hurt by his defensive and offensive peak's perhaps not aligning. RS Kemp is hurt by foul trouble harming his minutes, though around his apex he was closer to a normal stars minutes in the playoffs (... though if one likes 96 for his combination of RS and playoffs [and being in shape unlike later], at 36mpg his playoff numbers is in somewhat of a middle ground ... he'd gone circa 40 in the brief runs in 94 and 95).

Yeah but this data is irrelevant since it isn't AI driven data. All data prior to the AI, which is built on Human Data, is irrelevant.

I have Kemp as the better player at his peak, but Payton a much better career

Owly wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
He means nate mcmillan

Nate was in no way better than GP on defense though

Well that seems rather definitive. And McMillan may have some impact data on his side

in '94 McMillan had the league's best plus-minus iirc, and a 13.2 on off, to Payton's -6.2.
'95 McMllan's on-off was 10; Payton's 1.5
'96 McMillan's -2.1; Payton's 5.4.
Obviously that's a 2 way measure and noisy but ... not nothing.
From the 97-14 Googlesites DRAPM McMillan 2.17 ; Payton is -0.16 (in this version negative is bad, positive good).

This doesn't preclude Payton from peaking higher as a defender or perhaps providing more value in a particular season by being on the floor more. McMillan does though have a significant impact signal in the 94-96 window and a significant defensive signal in his later career. Payton's number isn't bad for a point guard and it's hurt by the weak defensive end to his career (though how long it was weak ... "name"-based accolades might hide). Overall, though, it is quite a bit lower than one might expect off reputation.

As far as peak I do think Payton is somewhat hurt by his defensive and offensive peak's perhaps not aligning. RS Kemp is hurt by foul trouble harming his minutes, though around his apex he was closer to a normal stars minutes in the playoffs (... though if one likes 96 for his combination of RS and playoffs [and being in shape unlike later], at 36mpg his playoff numbers is in somewhat of a middle ground ... he'd gone circa 40 in the brief runs in 94 and 95).

0n/off numbers are for roster evaluation. They were never meant for player comparisons, the very people who made them said that lol.

Nate wasn't on GP's level defensively. Nate came in for defensive rotations playing like 22 mpg, so of course his +/- numbers will look great. GP was taking the tougher assignments and consistently better. In 96' Nate only play 55 games, yet the Sonics defense jump to #2 after being #10 in 95'. Shouldn't they have fallen off?