RealGM

Where does it among the top player today following the championship?
Did he move up or down on your list?

Top 1 among final MVP's this season

Exactly the same for me.

2nd banana rankings of this millennium

17 Durant
01-02 Kobe
20 Davis
18 Durant
12 Wade
05 Manu
06 Shaq
00 Kobe
09/10 Pau
07 Manu
24 Brown
16 Kyrie
23 Murray
15 Draymond
14 Kawhi
21 Holiday
13 Wade
19 Lowry
04 Ben Wallace
22 Draymond
uhhh 11 Kidd
uhhh 03 Robinson

Dr Positivity wrote:2nd banana rankings of this millennium

17 Durant
01-02 Kobe
20 Davis
18 Durant
12 Wade
05 Manu
06 Shaq
00 Kobe
09/10 Pau
07 Manu
24 Brown
16 Kyrie
23 Murray
15 Draymond

This is sort of an interesting topic for discussion I think. Maybe worthy of its own thread. I think my list would look something like this with extra emphasis on playoffs:
20 AD
17 KD
01 Kobe
18 KD
02 Kobe
05 Manu
09/10 Pau
04 Ben
12 Wade
06 Shaq
gets harder from here
24 Brown
23 Murray/16 Kyrie
15 Draymond

Might be a bit low on Draymond. idk

Dr Positivity wrote:2nd banana rankings of this millennium

17 Durant
01-02 Kobe
20 Davis
18 Durant
12 Wade
05 Manu
06 Shaq
00 Kobe
09/10 Pau
07 Manu
24 Brown
16 Kyrie
23 Murray
15 Draymond
14 Kawhi
21 Holiday
13 Wade
19 Lowry
03 Ben Wallace
22 Draymond
uhhh 11 Kidd
uhhh 03 Robinson

This might be worth having a thread of its own. Might be interesting to extend to Finalists as well. 2016 Draymond would be up there.

For OP's sake I'll try to answer the original question lol

Players that I'd prolly rank above him in groups of 5

Jokic
Embiid
Luka
Giannis
Shai

Tatum
LeBron
AD
Brunson
Kawhi

Steph
Durant
Edwards
Booker
DMitch

Hali
Gobert
Sabonis
Dame
Butler

Idk some of these are arguable I guess, and probably forgetting some guys. Suppose I'd call him top25

jalengreen wrote:For OP's sake I'll try to answer the original question lol

Players that I'd prolly rank above him in groups of 5

Jokic
Embiid
Luka
Giannis
Shai

Tatum
LeBron
AD
Brunson
Kawhi

Steph
Durant
Edwards
Booker
DMitch

Hali
Gobert
Sabonis
Dame
Butler

Idk some of these are arguable I guess, and probably forgetting some guys. Suppose I'd call him top25

Decent list but tbh, I think Brown is above some of these guys like Butler and Dame now. I also trust him more in that #2 spot in the playoffs than I'd trust Sabonis. He just had 4 very strong playoff series in a row including one where he was at superstar level while providing good defense.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

jalengreen wrote:For OP's sake I'll try to answer the original question lol

Players that I'd prolly rank above him in groups of 5

Jokic
Embiid
Luka
Giannis
Shai

Tatum
LeBron
AD
Brunson
Kawhi

Steph
Durant
Edwards
Booker
DMitch

Hali
Gobert
Sabonis
Dame
Butler

Idk some of these are arguable I guess, and probably forgetting some guys. Suppose I'd call him top25

Decent list but tbh, I think Brown is above some of these guys like Butler and Dame now. I also trust him more in that #2 spot in the playoffs than I'd trust Sabonis. He just had 4 very strong playoff series in a row including one where he was at superstar level while providing good defense.

I was higher on Dame than most this season, think he was still elite and did an excellent job at leading the offense as a playmaker. And if the reports about him not being in shape were true, I'm hopeful for an even better season next year.

As for Butler, yeah I dunno, kinda gave him the benefit of the doubt due to reputation. Frankly didn't see that much of him this year.

I assume you're talking about the ECF for JB? He was great (29.8 / 5.0 / 3.0 on 59.6% TS%), as was Dame (31.3 / 3.3 / 5.0 on 64.0 TS%) while injured for half of that, with a worse supporting cast, and against the same poor defense. Yeah Dame's a far worse defensive player, but Brown's also nowhere near him offensively imo

I think it's easy to be a little too high on anyone on the Boston team because of how ridiculously stacked it is. It really makes everyone's job easier when you're surrounded by that level of talent. When everyone in the rotation is a good 3PT shooter, most everyone is a positive defender, etc... OTOH he's also an easy player to build around and fit on different teams which is certainly a plus. I could see someone putting him in the top 20 for sure

jalengreen wrote:
I think it's easy to be a little too high on anyone on the Boston team because of how ridiculously stacked it is. It really makes everyone's job easier when you're surrounded by that level of talent. When everyone in the rotation is a good 3PT shooter, most everyone is a positive defender, etc... OTOH he's also an easy player to build around and fit on different teams which is certainly a plus. I could see someone putting him in the top 20 for sure

It's sort of easy to be on high on them given the talent otoh he's been a core part of teams that keep making the conf finals, finals and now won a ring so there's a battle testedness and resilience that's proven there now. He was also the best Celtic in the 2022 finals as well so he's a guy you can pretty much count on even in the finals. Which is a very short list of players.

Mention of 2022 just reminded me that I forgot Ja hmm wonder who else

Dr Positivity wrote:2nd banana rankings of this millennium

17 Durant
01-02 Kobe
20 Davis
18 Durant
12 Wade
05 Manu
06 Shaq
00 Kobe
09/10 Pau
07 Manu
24 Brown
16 Kyrie
23 Murray
15 Draymond
14 Kawhi
21 Holiday
13 Wade
19 Lowry
04 Ben Wallace
22 Draymond
uhhh 11 Kidd
uhhh 03 Robinson

Shouldn't this be a primary option ranking?

Metrics aren't good for Brown. He seems to get it done but with less talent around him he'd probably falter alot.

TroubleS0me wrote:Where does it among the top player today following the championship?
Did he move up or down on your list?

Not far below White & Holiday.

Same level he has always been--around a Top 50-ish player.

He's an all star that played like a top 10ish player in the finals. One of the best 2nd bananas in the league.

jalengreen wrote:For OP's sake I'll try to answer the original question lol

Players that I'd prolly rank above him in groups of 5

Jokic
Embiid
Luka
Giannis
Shai

Tatum
LeBron
AD
Brunson
Kawhi

Steph
Durant
Edwards
Booker
DMitch

Hali
Gobert
Sabonis
Dame
Butler

Idk some of these are arguable I guess, and probably forgetting some guys. Suppose I'd call him top25

This is fair I think. I would put him right in with that 16-20 tier.
His defense in the playoffs was really impressive, especially in slowing down Luka.
He has worked hard on areas he was weaker at. He goes left with ease now and takes care of the ball much better. Now he need to get that FT% up to 80.

Dr Positivity wrote:2nd banana rankings of this millennium

17 Durant
01-02 Kobe
20 Davis
18 Durant
12 Wade
05 Manu
06 Shaq
00 Kobe
09/10 Pau
07 Manu
24 Brown
16 Kyrie
23 Murray
15 Draymond
14 Kawhi
21 Holiday
13 Wade
19 Lowry
04 Ben Wallace
22 Draymond
uhhh 11 Kidd
uhhh 03 Robinson

He is woese than almost all those guys you rank below him

Draymond at his best was a better player, lowry was comparable, hollyday was comparable (so was middleton), kyrie was comparable or better, pre prime kawhi was comparable and just with a smaller load

falcolombardi wrote:
He is woese than almost all those guys you rank below him

Draymond at his best was a better player, lowry was comparable, hollyday was comparable (so was middleton), kyrie was comparable or better, pre prime kawhi was comparable and just with a smaller load

Keep in mind that its not the best version of each player, its the version that won a title as 2nd banana. I think some of the posters on this thread are way down on Brown and sort of being dismissive of him when there's not too many guys you could pencil in to give the combo of offense and defense that he gives. Not just theoretically speaking but his scoring was basically b+ in every series and a solid a in one of them(plus fmvp). Lowry in 19 had a down year for him and he had a solid playoffs but it wasn't on Brown's level. It was more he just hit some key shots here and there and played solid defense.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
He is woese than almost all those guys you rank below him

Draymond at his best was a better player, lowry was comparable, hollyday was comparable (so was middleton), kyrie was comparable or better, pre prime kawhi was comparable and just with a smaller load

Keep in mind that its not the best version of each player, its the version that won a title as 2nd banana. I think some of the posters on this thread are way down on Brown and sort of being dismissive of him when there's not too many guys you could pencil in to give the combo of offense and defense that he gives. Not just theoretically speaking but his scoring was basically b+ in every series and a solid a in one of them(plus fmvp). Lowry in 19 had a down year for him and he had a solid playoffs but it wasn't on Brown's level. It was more he just hit some key shots here and there and played solid defense.

Lowry is ridiculously insultingly low. He was miles better than Brown. Here's how their teams performed with and without them in their championship years:

Regular season
Raptors with Lowry +11.2
Raptors w/o Lowry: -1.0
On/off: +12.2

Celtics with Brown: +8.2
Celtics w/o Brown: +15.9
On/off: -7.7

Postseason
Raptors with Lowry: +8.9
Raptors w/o Lowry: -5.2
On/off: +14.1

Celtics with Brown: +7.0
Celtics w/o Brown: +14.5
On/off: -7.5

So with Lowry, the Raptors were 2-3 points better than the Celtics with Brown. Without Lowry, the Raptors were 17-20 points worse than the Celtics. That's not noise. That's a massive, massive signal. And Lowry staggered much more from Kawhi Leonard than Jaylen did from Tatum. Brown played 68% of his minutes with Tatum while Lowry only played 57% of his minutes with Kawhi.