Throwawaytheone wrote:Lebronnygoat wrote:Throwawaytheone wrote:I don't really care to weigh in on this "debate" too much, but I will note that Harden has been as well optimized as any offensive star ever, with amazing spacing/shooters/rollers over his entire career, even when his cast looks bad. Curry has never had his production optimized like this, the team is always built in a way to maximise their odds of winning, which involves defense and giving large roles to players who can't roll or space the floor meaningfully.
Hard disagree, Harden’s best teammates before 2018 was Parsons and Ariza that fit his mold. Howard optimized his passing threat driving but I mean anyone that’s competent enough as a center can, I mean look at Clint Capela. Then an injury riddled and aging CP3 came along who missed a lot of the regular season, and Harden was still able to make that team an ATG offense with Eric Gordon, Capela and Ariza. Then in 2020 he gets Russ, which seemed well in the regular season (still wasn’t optimizing Harden) but in the postseason he gets hurt and is just a decoy basically, except he can’t shoot, from anywhere lol. So harden gets box and one + doubled constantly, which happened anyway in the regular season.
Curry on the other hand, had Green run the offense many times through his on ball playmaking in & out the post, and a system that greatly optimized players like Curry (Reggie miller for example) with threats like Klay, Durant, Barnes, & other role players that can shoot (Poole, Cook, Livingston) sometimes Iggy, and amazing screen setters (got away with a lot of illegal stuff).
Always had the squad healthy too until 2019 in the finals. Meanwhile, Harden was playing with a Howard on a torn MCL after ‘14, injured Pat Bev, injured Russ, injured House Jr, injured Rivers, injured CP3.
Curry’s squad definitely maximized him more than Harden.
Almost all of this is wrong on a lot of levels. The following stats exclude Harden and Curry obviously
14 Rockets: 7 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
15 Rockets: 4 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
16 Rockets: 3 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (5 taking 3+ attempts)
17 Rockets: 5 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (6 taking 3+ attempts)
18 Rockets: 6 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
19 Rockets: 6 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (10 taking 3+ attempts)
14 Warriors: 1 player shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (2 taking 3+ attempts)
15 Warriors: 1 player shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (2 taking 3+ attempts)
16 Warriors: 3 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)
17 Warriors: 2 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)
18 Warriors: 4 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (5 taking 3+ attempts)
19 Warriors: 2 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)
Of course, this isn't the perfect measure of spacing. I know that. But it's pretty decent and is indicative of what we see on the floor, the Rockets always surround Harden with better spacers than the Warriors do Curry, and that's evidenced by one being offensively slanted and the other being defensively slanted. I included a % and volume stat, but I actually think the volume only stat is more important because it's more reflective of who the designated shooters are, defenses worry about them and guard them which is often why they might not crack the % barrier. It really shows the disparity between the roster construction philosophy of the Warriors and the Rockets.
I'd also like to note that all of Curry's seasons included Draymond taking 3+ attempts, but he obviously never spaced the floor for Curry, so he shouldn't even be included but I did anyways.
You spoke about how Harden had Russ next to him as a primary ballhandler and he couldn't shoot so teams sagged way off him, leading to Harden doubles and box-and-1s... Oh the horror... Now imagine dealing with that your entire prime, and having a player like that who can't even finish plays or attack the rim or roll like a normal bigman. That reminds me, we haven't even gotten to discussing roll-men where obviously the Rockets were way better. You called Howard's abilities something any competent bigmen can do, but that's just the thing, Curry has never had a Howard or Capela, he has gotten Looney and Zaza and Draymond, who aren't even meeting that standard, let alone being as good as the aforementioned 2 at attracting defenders in the PnR and finishing plays (we'll get to that.)
You also had this strange point about listing all the players the Rockets had, and just prefacing it with "injured" like that suddenly meant they don't exist or were never healthy. Not sure what that was about.
I don't deny that the Warriors supporting casts were good. The thing is, the addition of Durant didn't help Curry's box score statistics at all, all it did was lower his scoring output and put him out of rhythm temporarily in the 17 RS. Durant obviously made it WAY easier for Curry to win games, but not to pad his stats, whereas the roleplayers the Rockets had do that much better for Harden. That specifically pertains to PnR partners, which is crucial for a modern guard to rack up stats. They need that big that can roll well and finish adequately, so they have someone to get assists from, and they need that big man to have roll gravity opening up layups for the ballhandler, or free throws. They also need shooters to get assists from, and to space the floor to allow for direct mismatch hunting and easier shots. These are traits the Warriors had far less of compared to the Rockets.
That doesn't even get into the Warriors playstyle, where Curry running offball constantly (while it does unlock shots for him) isn't as effective as racking up triple doubles spamming PnR. We can see that because every season some new guard running that same helio-ball style racks up more gaudy stats than Curry, and every season the conversation is "Has Curry been surpassed?" And every season that conversation quickly dies down until a new guy comes in. It's not like Curry was ever incapable of mimicking that style, he deals with more physicality than any star guard in the league and has better cardio than literally any other player in the league, while having a unique combination of shotmaking, burst, ballhandling and passing neccecary for that playtype, hence why his PnRs are so efficient. He just has a coach that despises it. In the 2014 season before Kerr came on, and importantly, before he even entered his prime, he was averaging 24/9 on 113 TS+. Harden literally has never averaged those stats, despite having all the advantages to do so.
One last section to debunk: You mention how Curry has Draymond to maximise his onball playmaking, but Draymond doesn't often finish the play in the PnR, and most of the times he does it's a fake handoff (generated by Curry) that Curry doesn't get credit for. Usually, Curry passes to Draymond who lobs it for a dunker, or passes to a cutter, which means Curry doesn't get credit for his playmaking. Conversely, Harden has the lob threat which directly gives him an assist, or a wide array of shooters to pass to. I've talked about how the system, while potentially optimizing the Warriors chances of winning, didn't optimize Curry's individual production already. And if we want to talk about abusing rules and illegal plays, we should also talk about the Rockets spamming screens, many of which were illegal, and Harden grifting to the line at historic rates by blatantly cheating.
TL DR: no
This is why I didn't wanna weigh into the debate, I start yapping on too much about a debate that's already dead.
That's it for me.
