If you replace 2018 LeBron with any version of himself from 2009-16, do the Cavs still make the Finals?

[ardee]

Simple question. Not putting 2017 in there because I do think he was more or less the same player at that point.

[Throwawaytheone]

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[ardee]

"If you replace Lebron with better versions of himself, would he do better?"

Probably. I mean, the earlier versions of Lebron could get unlucky with shotmaking or something, but on average, they do better, especially if they coast the RS.

2018 was arguably his most impressive Playoff run so I think it's a bit presumptive to say that any prior version would easily be able to mimic it.

In 2018, LeBron had arguably the worst supporting cast of his prime, and was especially outmatched against Indiana and Boston, to the point where he needed to score 40+ for his team to even have a chance. In all Cav wins for that run, he averaged 38/9/9 on 66% TS, and they NEEDED that from him.

I think it's fair to assume that's not easily replicable by earlier versions, considering they were in situations like that and COULDN'T raise production to that point.

2014 LeBron was highly outmatched by the Spurs for example, and he took 18 shots a game. Then in 2015 he was once again outmatched by the Warriors in the Finals, and while he did raise his volume his efficiency took a serious tumble.

So why could we assume that all prior versions would be able to match what he did in 2018, even if they were better on paper?

[Throwawaytheone]

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[ardee]

"If you replace Lebron with better versions of himself, would he do better?"

Probably. I mean, the earlier versions of Lebron could get unlucky with shotmaking or something, but on average, they do better, especially if they coast the RS.

2018 was arguably his most impressive Playoff run so I think it's a bit presumptive to say that any prior version would easily be able to mimic it.

In 2018, LeBron had arguably the worst supporting cast of his prime, and was especially outmatched against Indiana and Boston, to the point where he needed to score 40+ for his team to even have a chance. In all Cav wins for that run, he averaged 38/9/9 on 66% TS, and they NEEDED that from him.

I think it's fair to assume that's not easily replicable by earlier versions, considering they were in situations like that and COULDN'T raise production to that point.

2014 LeBron was highly outmatched by the Spurs for example, and he took 18 shots a game. Then in 2015 he was once again outmatched by the Warriors in the Finals, and while he did raise his volume his efficiency took a serious tumble.

So why could we assume that all prior versions would be able to match what he did in 2018, even if they were better on paper?

I just don't see why superior versions of Lebron that are more productive on both ends across larger samples wouldn't be able to mimic that output given the same circumstances.

Because they literally didn't. I just provided examples of when LeBron was badly outmatched in prior series and his production simply wasn't there in comparison to 2018.

[Cavsfansince84]

I just don't see why superior versions of Lebron that are more productive on both ends across larger samples wouldn't be able to mimic that output given the same circumstances.

Because they literally didn't. I just provided examples of when LeBron was badly outmatched in prior series and his production simply wasn't there in comparison to 2018.

09 was there.

[TheGOATRises007]

2009 would.

2010 would if he doesn't injure his elbow.

I'm not sure about 2015, because I think he slightly declined that season.

I think 2016 would as well.

2012-2013, I'm not sure if his offense can scale up.

[MyUniBroDavis]

You can replace him with any single player in history and they aren’t making it out of round one lol

[Homer38]

It's almost impossible to do what LBJ did in 2018....I mean against the Celtics, the Cavs won despite that 5 of the 6 best scorers in this series were from the Celtics...and against the Pacers ,2 pacers players were at one point away from Love to have 6 of the 7 best scorers come from Indiana

I don't think it has happened before that a team won a playoff series despite the other team having 5 of the 6 best scorers in the series(maybe some of the cavs vs bulls series in the last 1980s for Jordan?)....It was such an all-time carry job

[Joao Saraiva]

Maybe his best years like 09 or 10.

But it's all circumstancial. I think if you do those POs again with 18 James Cleveland might be eliminated more often than not.

No team with such bad defense ever made it out of round 1 so... the odds are pretty much against them.

Hot streaks are required by Bron and the role players appearing on the right moments.

Also those clutch shots he hit... a wrong bounce at the rim and the outcome can be very different.

So who knows? It's hard that even he could replicate all that. I'd be more confident with younger versions of high motor James like 09-13, but who knows.

[McBubbles]

"If you replace Lebron with better versions of himself, would he do better?"

Probably. I mean, the earlier versions of Lebron could get unlucky with shotmaking or something, but on average, they do better, especially if they coast the RS.

2018 was arguably his most impressive Playoff run so I think it's a bit presumptive to say that any prior version would easily be able to mimic it.

In 2018, LeBron had arguably the worst supporting cast of his prime, and was especially outmatched against Indiana and Boston, to the point where he needed to score 40+ for his team to even have a chance. In all Cav wins for that run, he averaged 38/9/9 on 66% TS, and they NEEDED that from him.

I think it's fair to assume that's not easily replicable by earlier versions, considering they were in situations like that and COULDN'T raise production to that point.

2014 LeBron was highly outmatched by the Spurs for example, and he took 18 shots a game. Then in 2015 he was once again outmatched by the Warriors in the Finals, and while he did raise his volume his efficiency took a serious tumble.

So why could we assume that all prior versions would be able to match what he did in 2018, even if they were better on paper?

I think 2009, 2010 and 2012 Lebron do better in place of 2018 Lebron. They have the same scoring aggression as 2018 Lebron with better stamina and defence. He didn't have an off the dribble 3 point shot yet in those years but honestly I think that would be more than offset by the spacing he'd receive, both from a raw production and gravity standpoint.

Lebron's FGA in the Restricted Area peaked at 33 years old at 8.7 per game on 74.8% shooting. In 2009 Lebron was at 6.8 per game on 72.5% shooting. Imagine the explosion you'd see from giving 09 Lebron 2018 spacing. Ditto with 2012 Lebron. The 2012 Miami Heat took less 3 pointers a game than the 1994 Houston Rockets.

[OhayoKD]

You can replace him with any single player in history and they aren’t making it out of round one lol

Why are you acting like 2009 Lebron isn't decimating small-ball on both ends in 2018 lol

[Heej]

I have 17 as peak LeBron so maybe that year. I just don't think the Miami versions had the same grit LeBron developed in 2015 when he took the limiter off and fully emptied the clip in a way he never had to in his entire career. The Cavs version just has a little bit more of that assertiveness and not worrying about stepping on toes to get the job done. 2018 was a master class. It's hard to see someone playing better than LeBron did, especially in the role he played. Luka surely could handle the offensive load but LeBron was essentially their backup C and secondary paint protector as well on those teams.

[homecourtloss]

I have 17 as peak LeBron so maybe that year. I just don't think the Miami versions had the same grit LeBron developed in 2015 when he took the limiter off and fully emptied the clip in a way he never had to in his entire career. The Cavs version just has a little bit more of that assertiveness and not worrying about stepping on toes to get the job done. 2018 was a master class. It's hard to see someone playing better than LeBron did, especially in the role he played. Luka surely could handle the offensive load but LeBron was essentially their backup C and secondary paint protector as well on those teams.

This is quite likely. Most of the scoring James generated came from unassisted FGs while he was creating open shots for others who couldn’t make them while stepping up his defensive energy in the playoffs. While I think there are overall better versions of James, I’m not sure any version of anyone could score that well on high volume unassisted FGs while creating for others; I’m not sure anyone could. LeBron himself became a more refined scorer while incorporating some Euro step slower moves in the paint and scoring quite creatively, something he had to do less of in 2009 since back then he was at his athletic peak. I think the sheer hurricane force of 2009 James leads them to the Finals as well as some Miami versions of playing differently than he did there as well as 2015-2017 all having a shot.

Here are some other playoff runs of over 10 games played with the player scoring at a high unassisted %. This was a quick scan so there may be others. The main point here is that it’s almost impossible to score super efficiently at high volume while creating for everyone else.

2018 LeBron

78.9% FGM unassisted
61.9% TS (+6.4 rTS)
34 ppg, 45.3 Assist%
22 games played

2020 Harden

78.9% FGM unassisted
63.6% TS (+6.2 rTS)
29.6 ppg., 39.1 Assist%
12 games played

2009 Kobe

76.4% FGM unassisted
56.4% TS (+2.0 rTS)
30.2 ppg., 26.0 Assist%
23 games played

2022 Luka

81.9% FGM unassisted
57.7% TS (+1.0 rTS)
31.7 ppg., 36.9 Assist%
15 games played

2024 Luka

82.7 FGM unassisted
55.6% TS (-1.0 rTS)
28.9 ppg., 35.0 Assist%
22 games played

2019 Harden

88.1% FGM unassisted
56.7% TS (+1.2 rTS)
31.6 ppg., 32.9 Assist%
11 games played

2018 Harden

82.8% FGM unassisted
54.8% TS (-.7 rTS)
28.6 ppg., 35.6 Assist%
17 games played