RealGM

As the title says who was better when it came to just shot blocking? Obviously Dikembe was better at basically every other skill in the game.

Eaton was a little more prolific in blocking, but that's basically all the Jazz asked him to do, so that made it a little easier for him to rack them up. Mutombo may not have been Shaq or Hakeem offensively, but he was a more competent scorer than Eaton, so he couldn't just focus on swatting shots.

Basically, if Mutombo's teams only ever asked for him to block shots, his average might have been similar to Eaton's.

B-Mitch 30 wrote:As the title says who was better when it came to just shot blocking? Obviously Dikembe was better at basically every other skill in the game.

While we typically talk about shot-blocking as if it's one thing, I think it makes sense here to distinguish:

Eaton, along with contemporary Manute Bol, were probably the best goalie-style shot blockers we've ever seen in the NBA - that is guys with the most sheer capacity to block shots as they near the rim.

But the guys we typically call the best shot blockers are guys with mobility and decision making. On this front, Mutombo > Eaton...though I'd say Russell > Mutombo, and quite possibly by an even larger gap.

But the guys we typically call the best shot blockers are guys with mobility and decision making. On this front, Mutombo > Eaton

Looking at each player's top 10 seasons for most blocks, Eaton averaged 372 blocks/3000min, Mutombo 282 blocks/3000min. That's not even close - mobility notwithstanding.

Also Eaton's first decade in the league (1982-83 to 1991-92) Utah was the best defensive team in the league (103.3 pts/100poss allowed) - that's over an entire decade - and allowed the lowest 2pt FG% in the league (47.1%) over the ten years.

I don't remember any teams that Mutombo started at C on that were that good on defense for any length of time compared to the rest of the league. His first 5 seasons at Atlanta they ranked 11th in the league in defensive efficiency, his next 5 seasons at Atlanta they ranked 14th in the league in defensive efficiency.

His first 5 seasons at Atlanta

Sorry - at Denver (1991-92 to 1995-96). Then at Atlanta (1996-97 to 2000-01).

kcktiny wrote:

His first 5 seasons at Atlanta

Sorry - at Denver (1991-92 to 1995-96). Then at Atlanta (1996-97 to 2000-01).

You do realize Mutombo's Defensive On/Off over the 5 years of 1997-2001 was somewhere around -8 to -10, right? His impact was bringing those Atlanta teams from worst Defense in the NBA without him to Best Defense in the NBA with him.

Colbinii wrote:

kcktiny wrote:

His first 5 seasons at Atlanta

Sorry - at Denver (1991-92 to 1995-96). Then at Atlanta (1996-97 to 2000-01).

You do realize Mutombo's Defensive On/Off over the 5 years of 1997-2001 was somewhere around -8 to -10, right? His impact was bringing those Atlanta teams from worst Defense in the NBA without him to Best Defense in the NBA with him.

I do broadly agree though I would back off a touch from (defensive) "On/off" straight into "his impact". He plays alongside Blaylock for 3 of those years, a guy with a mixed offensive boxscore profile (especially for years 2 and 3 here), a big defensive rep, a very significant impact signal in 94-96 on-off and an impact signal even after he gets box-worse in Golden State.

I'm not saying it's a 50:50 split or Dikembe isn't a defensive monster just ... having Blaylock as a fellow starter muddies the waters and "his impact", if describing the difference between on and off is already a lit more absolute than I personally would be comfortable with.

Owly wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

kcktiny wrote:
Sorry - at Denver (1991-92 to 1995-96). Then at Atlanta (1996-97 to 2000-01).

You do realize Mutombo's Defensive On/Off over the 5 years of 1997-2001 was somewhere around -8 to -10, right? His impact was bringing those Atlanta teams from worst Defense in the NBA without him to Best Defense in the NBA with him.

I do broadly agree though I would back off a touch from (defensive) "On/off" straight into "his impact". He plays alongside Blaylock for 3 of those years, a guy with a mixed offensive boxscore profile (especially for years 2 and 3 here), a big defensive rep, a very significant impact signal in 94-96 on-off and an impact signal even after he gets box-worse in Golden State.

I'm not saying it's a 50:50 split or Dikembe isn't a defensive monster just ... having Blaylock as a fellow starter muddies the waters and "his impact", if describing the difference between on and off is already a lit more absolute than I personally would be comfortable with.

My point isn't that On/Off is a great stat, it is that the Atlanta Hawks were an incredible defense with Mutombo and a bad defense without him. He had clear impact and the idea that the Hawks being the 11th best Defense is some slight on Mutombo doesn't hold up.

SportsGuru08 wrote:Eaton was a little more prolific in blocking, but that's basically all the Jazz asked him to do, so that made it a little easier for him to rack them up. Mutombo may not have been Shaq or Hakeem offensively, but he was a more competent scorer than Eaton, so he couldn't just focus on swatting shots.

Basically, if Mutombo's teams only ever asked for him to block shots, his average might have been similar to Eaton's.

Additionally, the floor "was smaller" in Eaton's day, as fewer 3PA's were taken, everything was coming closer in. Additionally, the Defensive 3-Second Rule was initiated beginning in '02, iirc; so that's affecting part of Deke's career (though mostly his post-prime).

It's still debatable, if talking about ONLY shot-blocking. Eaton was awfully long.

You do realize Mutombo's Defensive On/Off over the 5 years... His impact

You do realize - do you not - that on/off data has never been, and never will be, an "individual" player rating, right? It is always dependent on who was on the floor with the player and who was not. Period.

Tell me, is Gary Payton, one of the greatest defensive PGs in league history, a monster in defensive on/off? No? You know why?

Because for a good amount of his career his direct backup was Nate McMillan, another great defensive PG.

Is Alvin Robertson, one of the greatest SGs in league history, a monster in defensive on/off?

Do you realize that right now there is a thread in this same Player Comparisons section (Jordan overrated as an offensive hub) debating his impact on offense based on on/off information? This despite the fact that Jordan was on the floor for 80% of the Bulls minutes played over the 11 full seasons where he started for them?

My point isn't that On/Off is a great stat,

Yet this stat appears to be your go to in lieu for evaluating a player, no?

it is that the Atlanta Hawks were an incredible defense with Mutombo

Him all by his lonesome self?

and a bad defense without him.

Was his backup a really good defensive player?

He had clear impact

Again, he? This is not an individual player rating, never has been.

and the idea that the Hawks being the 11th best Defense is some slight on Mutombo doesn't hold up

Not a slight. Just factual. You can make of it what you will.

Just like Eaton played the most minutes on a team that was the league's best defensively over an entire decade. Fact.

Additionally, the floor "was smaller" in Eaton's day, as fewer 3PA's were taken, everything was coming closer in.

From 1979-80 to 1988-89 the league rate for shot blocking was 5.2 bs/100poss.

From 1989-90 to 1998-89 the league rate for shot blocking was 5.4 bs/100poss.

So in the decade of their primes more shots were blocked per team possession when Mutombo played than when Eaton played.

So, according to you, in an era where there were less shots coming from closer in, more shots were being blocked per team possession. How was this possible?

kcktiny wrote:

You do realize Mutombo's Defensive On/Off over the 5 years... His impact

You do realize - do you not - that on/off data has never been, and never will be, an "individual" player rating, right? It is always dependent on who was on the floor with the player and who was not. Period.

Tell me, is Gary Payton, one of the greatest defensive PGs in league history, a monster in defensive on/off? No? You know why?

Because for a good amount of his career his direct backup was Nate McMillan, another great defensive PG.

Is Alvin Robertson, one of the greatest SGs in league history, a monster in defensive on/off?

Do you realize that right now there is a thread in this same Player Comparisons section (Jordan overrated as an offensive hub) debating his impact on offense based on on/off information? This despite the fact that Jordan was on the floor for 80% of the Bulls minutes played over the 11 full seasons where he started for them?

My point isn't that On/Off is a great stat,

Yet this stat appears to be your go to in lieu for evaluating a player, no?

it is that the Atlanta Hawks were an incredible defense with Mutombo

Him all by his lonesome self?

and a bad defense without him.

Was his backup a really good defensive player?

He had clear impact

Again, he? This is not an individual player rating, never has been.

and the idea that the Hawks being the 11th best Defense is some slight on Mutombo doesn't hold up

Not a slight. Just factual. You can make of it what you will.

Just like Eaton played the most minutes on a team that was the league's best defensively over an entire decade. Fact.

Additionally, the floor "was smaller" in Eaton's day, as fewer 3PA's were taken, everything was coming closer in.

From 1979-80 to 1988-89 the league rate for shot blocking was 5.2 bs/100poss.

From 1989-90 to 1998-89 the league rate for shot blocking was 5.4 bs/100poss.

So in the decade of their primes more shots were blocked per team possession when Mutombo played than when Eaton played.

So, according to you, in an era where there were less shots coming from closer in, more shots were being blocked per team possession. How was this possible?

I apologize for not being clear.

You original said that because the Hawks were an average defensive team, that was a direct reflection of Mutombo as a defensive player.

I don't remember any teams that Mutombo started at C on that were that good on defense for any length of time compared to the rest of the league. His first 5 seasons at Atlanta they ranked 11th in the league in defensive efficiency, his next 5 seasons at Atlanta they ranked 14th in the league in defensive efficiency.

So, in response to this, I would point out that the Atlanta Hawks had an incredible defense in all of Mutombo's seasons while Mutombo was on the court.

While the Atlanta Hawks defense wasn't great overall, the reason for this was because of the minutes Mutombo spent on the bench. When Mutombo was on the court, the Hawks often had the best defense in the NBA.

So, in response to this, I would point out that the Atlanta Hawks had an incredible defense in all of Mutombo's seasons while Mutombo was on the court. While the Atlanta Hawks defense wasn't great overall, the reason for this was because of the minutes Mutombo spent on the bench.

So, in response to this, I would point out that in the decade that Utah was the best defensive team in the league (1982-83 to 1991-92), Eaton played just 30 min/g, yet averaged 299 blocks per season (372 bs/3000min) over that entire decade.

The other Cs on that team over that time were players like 6-11 Jeff Wilkins, 6-10 Mike Brown, 7-0 Rich Kelley, 6-11 Danny Schayes, 6-11 Eric Leckner, and 6-11 Mel Turpin. You remember any of these Cs being considered great defenders? Funny, neither do I.

Yet Utah was still the best team defensively over a decade. So how incredible on defense was Eaton over that time? How much better were the Jazz on defense when Eaton was on the floor versus these other Cs?

Surely the Jazz had to be much better, more "incredible", than the best defensive team over a decade, because even with these other six Cs playing some 18 min/g over that time they were still the best defensive team in the league over 10 years..

So what does your on/off say about him?