Miami LeBron vs 1st stint Cavs LeBron

[wafflzgod]

Many people believe that LeBron peaked in Miami (specifically '12/'13) due to still being at or near his athletic peak, adding more 'polish' to his offensive game, and his ability as a Swiss Army knife defender

However, looking at what he accomplished in his 1st stint as a Cavalier, specifically his 2 MVP years in '09/'10, I think the floor-raising he pulled off was absurd. Those teams posted SRS marks of 8.7 and 6.2 respectively (compared to LeBron's Heat posting 5.7 and 7.0 marks in '12/'13). Those 09/10 seasons tend to look even better than 12/13 in a number of all-in-one / adjusted plus-minus metrics. However, these metrics may be affected by roster construction and team style as those Miami teams had a second offensive star in Wade who not only helped buoy non-Lebron lineups but took away on-ball reps from Lebron when they shared the court.

As a player, he put on weight in Miami (helping him power through defenders to finish at the rim) which came at the expense of some speed and agility as a slasher and ball-handler as well as an on-ball/man defender IMO. However, he became a better shooter/post-up player as a Heat, and was smarter in terms of help defense/communication/rotations etc. While his motor seemed to be 'revving the hottest' as a Cav, this may be influenced by him having a better supporting cast in Miami.

My question is: do you think the version of LeBron we saw in Miami would have been able to replicate or accomplish to similar (or an even better degree?) the floor-raising efforts that he pulled off as a Cavalier with those rosters?

[SHAQ32]

My question is: do you think the version of LeBron we saw in Miami would have been able to replicate or accomplish to similar (or an even better degree?) the floor-raising efforts that he pulled off as a Cavalier with those rosters?

I'd say no. Because anytime the floor got low he'd just jump ship to another team.

Baiting/trolling. Please don't take the bait everyone. trex

[Dutchball97]

Yes I believe that LeBron reached a level in Miami that was well beyond what he was doing with the Cavs. 2011 was a story of LeBron struggling to adapt to actually having to play together with other great players and not just trying to do it all himself. Putting 2012 or 2013 LeBron in the position of 2009/2010 might get a handful of wins less in the regular season but I can't see him doing worse in the play-offs. In reverse though I'm not sure the Heat still win 2 titles if it was 2009 LeBron playing instead.

[colts18]

Cleveland LeBron was more explosive and had a higher ceiling. I think Miami LeBron was more adaptable and versatile. He wasn't as quick and athletic as he was in 09 but he read the game better and had more counters vs. great defenses like Boston, Chicago, and San Antonio.

[Djoker]

I think Miami Lebron could have replicated what Cleveland Lebron did. Perhaps not in terms of regular season wins; they might win a few less games with 2012 or 2013 Lebron because of less motor but they would be a bit better in the playoffs. As the two posters above me alluded to, he became more adapable and versatile by playing more off ball, learning how to play in the post etc. Because he played with Wade who was a good offensive anchor, his impact numbers declined and that's what throws people off.

[Colbinii]

I think Miami Lebron could have replicated what Cleveland Lebron did. Perhaps not in terms of regular season wins; they might win a few less games with 2012 or 2013 Lebron because of less motor but they would be a bit better in the playoffs. As the two posters above me alluded to, he became more adapable and versatile by playing more off ball, learning how to play in the post etc. Because he played with Wade who was a good offensive anchor, his impact numbers declined and that's what throws people off.

Wade wasn't a good Offensive Anchor in 2013 or 2014 though.

[sp6r=underrated]

I think Lebron was basically the same player from 09 to at least 13. Just an absurdly high peak that lasted a super long time, followed by the most gradual decline maybe in North American sports history.

[Djoker]

I think Miami Lebron could have replicated what Cleveland Lebron did. Perhaps not in terms of regular season wins; they might win a few less games with 2012 or 2013 Lebron because of less motor but they would be a bit better in the playoffs. As the two posters above me alluded to, he became more adapable and versatile by playing more off ball, learning how to play in the post etc. Because he played with Wade who was a good offensive anchor, his impact numbers declined and that's what throws people off.

Wade wasn't a good Offensive Anchor in 2013 or 2014 though.

Lineups with Lebron OFF Wade ON were anywhere between solid and really good up to and including 2013.

[Colbinii]

I think Miami Lebron could have replicated what Cleveland Lebron did. Perhaps not in terms of regular season wins; they might win a few less games with 2012 or 2013 Lebron because of less motor but they would be a bit better in the playoffs. As the two posters above me alluded to, he became more adapable and versatile by playing more off ball, learning how to play in the post etc. Because he played with Wade who was a good offensive anchor, his impact numbers declined and that's what throws people off.

Wade wasn't a good Offensive Anchor in 2013 or 2014 though.

Lineups with Lebron OFF Wade ON were anywhere between solid and really good up to and including 2013.

Really?

2013 Wade On/LeBron Off: 457 Minutes, 108.8 ORTG

Lg Avg ORTG: 105.9

Wade Net-Ortg W/O LeBron +2.9

You pick the absolute weirdest hills to die on.

It's a solid number is low minutes, but it really doesn't paint Wade as a "Good offensive anchor", especially when you consider Wade wasn't Anchoring any offenses in 2013. Wade simply didn't have enough in the tank to anchor an offense in 2013 with his injuries.

[Djoker]

Wade wasn't a good Offensive Anchor in 2013 or 2014 though.

Lineups with Lebron OFF Wade ON were anywhere between solid and really good up to and including 2013.

Really?

2013 Wade On/LeBron Off: 457 Minutes, 108.8 ORTG

Lg Avg ORTG: 105.9

Wade Net-Ortg W/O LeBron +2.9

You pick the absolute weirdest hills to die on.

It's a solid number is low minutes, but it really doesn't paint Wade as a "Good offensive anchor", especially when you consider Wade wasn't Anchoring any offenses in 2013. Wade simply didn't have enough in the tank to anchor an offense in 2013 with his injuries.

I'm not sure why you're following up on this in the first place. Lebron with the Heat until 2013 had a better offensive anchor backing him up than he did in the first Cleveland stint. I don't see what's remotely controversial about what I said.

[Throwawaytheone]

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[LA Bird]

For a board which trashes media personalities like Skip Bayless, the fact that people repeat the same type of general buzzwords when it suits them really annoys me. Miami LeBron is more adaptable and had better counters? Pick a series and explain what he actually adapted that he couldn't before.

2013 Finals? Wade being benched for better spacing in the 4th quarter of game 6 was Spo not LeBron. Yeah LeBron had great shooting in game 7 but nobody ever talks about how he couldn't score for much of the rest of the series. Over games 1, 2, 3, 5, and most of 6, LeBron was putting up a 2011-esque 16.2 points per 36 on 44.9% TS. And it's not like Diaw sagging off and daring him to shoot was some genius defensive masterplan. It's literally what every defense had done to LeBron since he came into the league. People can sing praises about how complete 2013 LeBron's offense was but basketball is not a beauty pageant judged on aesthetics. What people think is 13 LeBron didn't really come around until 17/18 and regardless, the effectiveness of 09 LeBron isn't any lesser because it is not as "well-rounded".

2012 Finals wasn't nearly as polished as most think either. People love to frame the narrative as LeBron finally winning a title because he became a good shooter when that couldn't be further from the truth. 2012 LeBron shot 7-38 outside the paint (18.4%) in the Finals. He was 18.2% from mid range and 18.8% from three. It's literally the single worst series of LeBron's entire career as a shooter. He didn't beat OKC because he had developed a great jumper or a post game - he did it by driving to the basket repeatedly in the most stereotypical LeBron fashion. The stylistic criticism of 09 LeBron but not 12 LeBron is nothing more than championship bias. The inconvenient truth is that most people will never admit LeBron peaked in a non-title season so they reverse engineer reasons to justify why Miami LeBron must have been better even if he did the exact same thing.

[homecourtloss]

For a board which trashes media personalities like Skip Bayless, the fact that people repeat the same type of general buzzwords when it suits them really annoys me. Miami LeBron is more adaptable and had better counters? Pick a series and explain what he actually adapted that he couldn't before.

2013 Finals? Wade being benched for better spacing in the 4th quarter of game 6 was Spo not LeBron. Yeah LeBron had great shooting in game 7 but nobody ever talks about how he couldn't score for much of the rest of the series. Over games 1, 2, 3, 5, and most of 6, LeBron was putting up a 2011-esque 16.2 points per 36 on 44.9% TS. And it's not like Diaw sagging off and daring him to shoot was some genius defensive masterplan. It's literally what every defense had done to LeBron since he came into the league. People can sing praises about how complete 2013 LeBron's offense was but basketball is not a beauty pageant judged on aesthetics. What people think is 13 LeBron didn't really come around until 17/18 and regardless, the effectiveness of 09 LeBron isn't any lesser because it is not as "well-rounded".

2012 Finals wasn't nearly as polished as most think either. People love to frame the narrative as LeBron finally winning a title because he became a good shooter when that couldn't be further from the truth. 2012 LeBron shot 7-38 outside the paint (18.4%) in the Finals. He was 18.2% from mid range and 18.8% from three. It's literally the single worst series of LeBron's entire career as a shooter. He didn't beat OKC because he had developed a great jumper or a post game - he did it by driving to the basket repeatedly in the most stereotypical LeBron fashion. The stylistic criticism of 09 LeBron but not 12 LeBron is nothing more than championship bias. The inconvenient truth is that most people will never admit LeBron peaked in a non-title season so they reverse engineer reasons to justify why Miami LeBron must have been better even if he did the exact same thing.

Prepare to read “outlier.”

[lessthanjake]

I feel like this is basically a question of whether we are assessing what actually happened or what we think about how good he was absent contextual factors and variance. As in, is the question “Which year did LeBron actually play the best?” or is it “If you had a hypothetical team and could have any version of LeBron on that team for a year, which version of him would you want?” It seems to me that 2009 is the answer to the former, but 2013 is probably the answer to the latter. And both lenses are perfectly valid ways to look at it.

I suppose the question in this thread is not just asking what year was his peak, but more specifically asking if Miami LeBron could be on those Cavs teams and do as much as first-stint Cavs LeBron. Which is a more specific variant of the second question I noted above. I’m inclined to think the answer is generally yes, though I wouldn’t really expect he’d do quite as well as LeBron did in 2009. But I also wouldn’t expect 2009 LeBron to do *quite* as well if you ran that year over again.

[Djoker]

For a board which trashes media personalities like Skip Bayless, the fact that people repeat the same type of general buzzwords when it suits them really annoys me. Miami LeBron is more adaptable and had better counters? Pick a series and explain what he actually adapted that he couldn't before.

2013 Finals? Wade being benched for better spacing in the 4th quarter of game 6 was Spo not LeBron. Yeah LeBron had great shooting in game 7 but nobody ever talks about how he couldn't score for much of the rest of the series. Over games 1, 2, 3, 5, and most of 6, LeBron was putting up a 2011-esque 16.2 points per 36 on 44.9% TS. And it's not like Diaw sagging off and daring him to shoot was some genius defensive masterplan. It's literally what every defense had done to LeBron since he came into the league. People can sing praises about how complete 2013 LeBron's offense was but basketball is not a beauty pageant judged on aesthetics. What people think is 13 LeBron didn't really come around until 17/18 and regardless, the effectiveness of 09 LeBron isn't any lesser because it is not as "well-rounded".

2012 Finals wasn't nearly as polished as most think either. People love to frame the narrative as LeBron finally winning a title because he became a good shooter when that couldn't be further from the truth. 2012 LeBron shot 7-38 outside the paint (18.4%) in the Finals. He was 18.2% from mid range and 18.8% from three. It's literally the single worst series of LeBron's entire career as a shooter. He didn't beat OKC because he had developed a great jumper or a post game - he did it by driving to the basket repeatedly in the most stereotypical LeBron fashion. The stylistic criticism of 09 LeBron but not 12 LeBron is nothing more than championship bias. The inconvenient truth is that most people will never admit LeBron peaked in a non-title season so they reverse engineer reasons to justify why Miami LeBron must have been better even if he did the exact same thing.

Good post. Winning bias is real and there is definite case for 1st Cavs stint Lebron (specifically 2009) as peak Lebron. Overall, 2009 Lebron is the best production he's ever sustained in the postseason but it's only a 14-game sample. First Cleveland stint Lebron makes me think not just of 2009 Lebron but also 2010 Lebron.

We have ample evidence that Lebron improved a shooter in Miami. If we look at hundreds of regular season games which is a large sample, he's a much better shooter from 2012-2014 than 2009-2010. Cold shooting series can be just natural variance. And his post game is improved post 2011i. When teams gave him space to shoot and packed the paint, he could just post up like 12 feet from the basket and attack that way effectively. With a few shooters, that post game unlocked a lot for him and his team offensively. His mentality also improved. You said how he was 2011-esque in the 2013 Finals and indeed he was. it wasn't just that he didn't score well but he looked passive at times which brought back those painful flashbacks. However he still figured it out in Game 4, parts of Game 6 and Game 7. That's something he didn't do in 2011 when he basically sucked the entire series up to the end. He also busted his tail on D in 2013 compared to the 2011 Finals where he was quite simply terrible on defense. For instance I wouldn't call Game 2 in 2013 a terrible game even though he had only 17 points. The Heat were up huge by the 3rd quarter and Lebron's defense was a definite factor (Splitter block game!).

[Joao Saraiva]

It's a different context.

He was too raw until 08 to be at the level of the Heat, but he was already a very dangerous player since 05, he had the ability to force things trough his speed, quick 1st step and finishing at the rim.

By 08 he was super elite with his athleticism but his decision making improved a lot. He became a better defender over time and by 07 he was already a positive, by 08 he was a super versatile perimeter defender and one of the major defenders of the league.

He played with the ball in his hands mostly in Cleveland, and it might seem he couldn't play off ball too much because the team actually had no other decent handler/playmakers. Idk if he could, but it definitely wasn't developed.

In 09 and 10 James was the true definition of a one man army. Physically I believe those are his better years. Brutal stamina, raw power, and he definitely had mastered being the ball handler in PnR or in iso. He became a good but streaky shooter by then.

With the Heat in 11 he looked a bit heavy and a bit lost cause there was no offensive system, but he was basically the same player.

By 12 he was raw but understood he had to adapt to a new context. Played better as a post player trough raw moves, and started developing his help D a lot. So virtually since 12 I think he became better.

[Colbinii]

The thing about 2009 LeBron James is it was criminally underrated as it was happening. Why? Because he didn't win.

The same thing would have happened if Kyrie/Love were healthy in the 2015 Finals and Curry lost in both 2015 and 2016--both those seasons would be seen as inferior to their actual level of play, but because Curry won the finals in 2015 there was less doubt in people's minds his level of play could lead to a championship.

There has always been a clear winning-bias among NBA fans and it has been this way since NBA fandom started. I was super high on Jokic pre-2023 but many people who follow basketball religiously [Podcasters & Posters here] thought Jokic should be held down a peg or two from Giannis due to defensive limitations. Then, the right pieces are put next to Jokic, he has one of the easiest paths to a Championship in NBA history and all of a sudden he is the clear-cut best player in the world. The reality is Jokic was 95% of the same player in 2023 as he was in 2022 but because his team was better and he won, he somehow vaults up in many people's views.

Circling this back to LeBron James, I feel like there is this idea that we can clearly define a single season as the best version of LeBron and then once we do, we can try to find weaknesses to that specific season or put limits on what he can or can't do. Unfortunately, this lends itself to bad faith actors, because LeBron James is the most Chameleon-like player in NBA History.

2009 LeBron James: An unstoppable physical force where his BBIQ is not yet mastered but he is unstoppable in the post-season to a degree we have literally never seen. He was living at the rim anytime he wanted and had a 100-Percentile Motor shared by the likes of probably no one given his consistent 2-way play, being by far the best defensive player on the #1 defense in the NBA and rocking a 30%+ Usage Rate.

2013 LeBron James: A common pick for LeBron's best Peak/Season and a common GOAT Peak among NBA enthusiasts. He develops a robust mid-range and 3P arsenal and is utilized off-ball more rather than a freight train like his earlier iterations. His defensive abilities are still top-notch [As a weak DPOY candidate in the season] combined with an incredible season start-to-finish. As LA Bird alluded to, some hiccups for LeBron James as a scorer in later post-season series really roared it's ugly head, which then get mended in later iterations.

2016 and 2017 LeBron James: These are really the ultimate LeBron James offensive seasons. He was the most unstoppable offensive weapon the league has ever seen. He has fully mastered offense to a degree no player has with his combination of scoring and playmaking. This all comes with a slight downtick in athleticism [Now a 99 Percentile Athlete compared to a 100 Percentile Athlete] but he can, at this point, dissect any defense on a whim. He knows the best shot for any offensive set, he knows how to beat any possible defensive set and he has the full skill-set to attack any defense. This is the pinnacle of an NBA offensive force and it lasts from 2016 > 2020. What does take a slight down-tick is his defensive energy following 2017, which likely coincided with the following from 2018:

A) 82 Games [Most in NBA Career]
B) 3026 RS Minutes [Most since 2011]
C) 53,000 Career Minutes [BEFORE 2018 Season] which is 4K more minutes than Jordan had in his entire career [Including Washington years]

2013 is also the final season for LeBron James where as he leaves his Peak Regular Season Motor in 2014. He simply can't be the most active and engaged player we have ever seen continue for 75+ RS Games and 22+ PS Games as the level he plays at into his early 30's and beyond.

[LA Bird]

For a board which trashes media personalities like Skip Bayless, the fact that people repeat the same type of general buzzwords when it suits them really annoys me. Miami LeBron is more adaptable and had better counters? Pick a series and explain what he actually adapted that he couldn't before.

2013 Finals? Wade being benched for better spacing in the 4th quarter of game 6 was Spo not LeBron. Yeah LeBron had great shooting in game 7 but nobody ever talks about how he couldn't score for much of the rest of the series. Over games 1, 2, 3, 5, and most of 6, LeBron was putting up a 2011-esque 16.2 points per 36 on 44.9% TS. And it's not like Diaw sagging off and daring him to shoot was some genius defensive masterplan. It's literally what every defense had done to LeBron since he came into the league. People can sing praises about how complete 2013 LeBron's offense was but basketball is not a beauty pageant judged on aesthetics. What people think is 13 LeBron didn't really come around until 17/18 and regardless, the effectiveness of 09 LeBron isn't any lesser because it is not as "well-rounded".

2012 Finals wasn't nearly as polished as most think either. People love to frame the narrative as LeBron finally winning a title because he became a good shooter when that couldn't be further from the truth. 2012 LeBron shot 7-38 outside the paint (18.4%) in the Finals. He was 18.2% from mid range and 18.8% from three. It's literally the single worst series of LeBron's entire career as a shooter. He didn't beat OKC because he had developed a great jumper or a post game - he did it by driving to the basket repeatedly in the most stereotypical LeBron fashion. The stylistic criticism of 09 LeBron but not 12 LeBron is nothing more than championship bias. The inconvenient truth is that most people will never admit LeBron peaked in a non-title season so they reverse engineer reasons to justify why Miami LeBron must have been better even if he did the exact same thing.

Prepare to read “outlier.”

If I am being honest, it feels like it comes down to:
- 09 Bron has no bag so he can be stopped (theoretically)
- 13 Bron has a bag so he is unstoppable (theoretically)
Since this theory did not align with what actually happened, people ignore reality by dismissing it as outlier.

[CodeBreaker]

Miami Bron was way better off-ball player

[TheGOATRises007]

I feel like it's clear post-11 Bron was very clearly a superior player to pre-11 Bron. Any argument otherwise hinges on raw production, but that isn't really an honest comparison because we should all know box score stats aren't directly analogous to ability, especially considering Lebron was in a situation from 08-10 that absolutely maximised his stats and with the Heat, the style shifted to maximise team success rather than individual production. Even just watching something like 2012 playoff Lebron, it's very visibly different to the 2009 playoffs, there's a large shift in style and I think it's for the better. His offensive game is way more expansive and surgical, and he's much harder to scheme for. There are consistent examples of Lebron struggling prior to 2012 in the playoffs at times, whereas after that offseason we never really saw that again for the rest of his prime, excluding 2015 where he was injured. They're both insane peaks historically but I'd pick Miami.

How did LeBron struggle in the 2009 playoffs?