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1986 Bird and 1987 Magic vs. whatever year was Lebron's peak. How good is the case for each of those two?

I ask because years ago people were very open to the idea that those guys peaked higher but these days I feel it's controversial to say that. The narrative has shifted a lot.

About as good as the case for peak Moses over peak Kareem.

Peak Magic and Bird have little to no case over Lebron mostly due to defense.

Non-existent, and I typically am fairly open with ranges regarding player assessment.

I don't think any smaller player, other than Jordan, has an argument over Peak LeBron. A few big men have their case.

very bad. zero case.

Non-existent. Lebron is the GOAT for career, prime and peak. Magic and Bird aren't top 5 for any of the 3.

Bird is much, much more portable than Bron. And that's important in a league where you cannot manipulate/change teams so easily.

Contrary to common narratives, there is more to portability than whether you are best used as a ball-handler.

SHAQ32 wrote:Bird is much, much more portable than Bron. And that's important in a league where you cannot manipulate/change teams so easily.

Lebron literally is more impactful off-the-ball

Djoker wrote:1986 Bird and 1987 Magic vs. whatever year was Lebron's peak. How good is the case for each of those two?

I ask because years ago people were very open to the idea that those guys peaked higher but these days I feel it's controversial to say that. The narrative has shifted a lot.

I would say that narrative was pretty much mainly before LeBron won titles. As soon as he won, then for a lot of people, it somehow "validated" the fact that by a pure numbers standpoint, he was clearly better than both. It was always bad logic imo, whether LeBron ever won a title or not, he was better at his best than Bird and Magic at their best, by a clear amount.

Everyone pretty much forms narratives when it comes to player rankings, but basing those narratives off objective fact rather than winning bias should be the goal.

The way I see it...

Defensive valuations have a very wide range of acceptable conclusions so based on that it's very possible. For instance, if one only sees Lebron as a small positive on defense then it's possible to have Magic over him especially if you believe Magic is a tier ahead offensively which some people including Ben Taylor do. In other words, the gap in impact from Magic's offense can override the gap in impact from Lebron's defense. And with Bird, he'd be on the same tier as Lebron on both ends but he can get a small bump overall because of superior portability.

For what it's worth, I personally do have Lebron's peak over both. Purely on offense, I do see Magic as better but Lebron makes that up and then some with defense. And with Bird, I see Lebron's peak as a bit better on both ends.

Bird has a good case.

Magic has no case as James is a better iteration.

SNPA wrote:Bird has a good case.

Magic has no case as James is a better iteration.

Struggling to see the case for Bird, to be honest.

tsherkin wrote:

SNPA wrote:Bird has a good case.

Magic has no case as James is a better iteration.

Struggling to see the case for Bird, to be honest.

Let’s start with the basics: better shooter, passer and rebounder.

SNPA wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

SNPA wrote:Bird has a good case.

Magic has no case as James is a better iteration.

Struggling to see the case for Bird, to be honest.

Let’s start with the basics: better shooter, passer and rebounder.

Better shooter, sure. Marginally better rebounder. Not clearly a better passer, definitely worse on D and not as good a playoff scorer. Also CONSIDERABLY worse at generating shots at the rim and drawing fouls, with significantly worse longevity.

SNPA wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

SNPA wrote:Bird has a good case.

Magic has no case as James is a better iteration.

Struggling to see the case for Bird, to be honest.

Let’s start with the basics: better shooter, passer and rebounder.

LeBron is a better overall scorer (which makes the point about shooting irrelevant) and is a much better defender (which makes the point about rebounding irrelevant). Passing is debatable honestly.

Djoker wrote:The way I see it...

Defensive valuations have a very wide range of acceptable conclusions so based on that it's very possible. For instance, if one only sees Lebron as a small positive on defense then it's possible to have Magic over him especially if you believe Magic is a tier ahead offensively which some people including Ben Taylor do. In other words, the gap in impact from Magic's offense can override the gap in impact from Lebron's defense. And with Bird, he'd be on the same tier as Lebron on both ends but he can get a small bump overall because of superior portability.

For what it's worth, I personally do have Lebron's peak over both. Purely on offense, I do see Magic as better but Lebron makes that up and then some with defense. And with Bird, I see Lebron's peak as a bit better on both ends.

I don't think Ben sees Magic as a whole tier above LeBron offensively, but if we're going that route, he also sees LeBron as one of the greatest defensive wings of all time and FAR better than Magic on that end of the floor, and ranks LeBron ahead of Magic on his peaks list and rivaled only by Jordan.

IMO, it's much harder to argue that Magic is better than LeBron by any more than a tiny amount offensively, than it is to argue that LeBron's defense blows Magic's out of the water.

And honestly, I don't find Magic's case over LeBron on offense to be all that convincing. Kind of hard for me to pick anyone ever over LeBron offensively, tbh.

tsherkin wrote:

SNPA wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
Struggling to see the case for Bird, to be honest.

Let’s start with the basics: better shooter, passer and rebounder.

Better shooter, sure. Marginally better rebounder. Not clearly a better passer, definitely worse on D and not as good a playoff scorer. Also CONSIDERABLY worse at generating shots at the rim and drawing fouls, with significantly worse longevity.

In a tougher league playing with Parish and McHale he average 10 for his career…James is at 7.5. It’s a real rebounding gap. Shooting isn’t close. Passing is closer but Bird is clearly the more naturally gifted passer. James spent most of his career as a manufacturer, creating assists. Bird didn’t need to put in that upfront effort (which forces a team into a certain style).

On ball defense isn’t close in James’ favor. Off ball defense is a lot closer, Bird was on several all D teams for a reason.

SHAQ32 wrote:Bird is much, much more portable than Bron. And that's important in a league where you cannot manipulate/change teams so easily.

Contender level lead ballhandling/playmaking is arguably the most important skill in basketball. It's why POA defenders are coming back around in perceived value now

SNPA wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

SNPA wrote:Let’s start with the basics: better shooter, passer and rebounder.

Better shooter, sure. Marginally better rebounder. Not clearly a better passer, definitely worse on D and not as good a playoff scorer. Also CONSIDERABLY worse at generating shots at the rim and drawing fouls, with significantly worse longevity.

In a tougher league playing with Parish and McHale he average 10 for his career…James is at 7.5. It’s a real rebounding gap. Shooting isn’t close. Passing is closer but Bird is clearly the more naturally gifted passer. James spent most of his career as a manufacturer, creating assists. Bird didn’t need to put in that upfront effort (which forces a team into a certain style).

On ball defense isn’t close in James’ favor. Off ball defense is a lot closer, Bird was on several all D teams for a reason.

Tougher league is BS. The rest of what you said about shooting and rebounding is countered as per therealbig3's post.

On ball defense is very definitely in James' favor, as is help D. D isnt close at all.