RealGM

SlimShady83 wrote:Love using this website when comparing players helps a lot and these two gotta be one of closest ones I can think of - Have another 2 In mind for a later thread.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/larry_bird_vs_kevin_durant.htm

Who you all pick In regards to Bird VS Durant?

A) Build a team around

B) Drafting them with out any knowledge of past history <> should be a fun one haha - If honest.

C) All round who you think Is better

For Me It's ...

A) Bird
B) Durant
C) Bird - But I'm biased and love birds trash talking stories haha - It's pretty damn close IMO

Hair Jordan wrote:Bird. They’re probably equal as shooters. Their FG, FT and 3 PT % are nearly identical,

tsherkin wrote:

Hair Jordan wrote:Bird. They’re probably equal as shooters. Their FG, FT and 3 PT % are nearly identical,

Durant takes more 3PA/g than Bird. Larry was a 50.9% shooter inside the arc on his career. KD has been a 54.1% shooter inside the arc on his career and he's shot over 50% from 3-23 feet for the past decade.

That's a little more than a "negligible" difference, even if you acknowledge era differences.

There are other pro-Bird arguments, but the shooting angle isn't a particularly good one. Durant is arguably the best mid-range shooter we've ever seen.

Hair Jordan wrote:Jordan is a better midrange shooter than KD. Durant is a better shooter everywhere else.

scrabbarista wrote:Bird had zero In-Season Tounament 1st Teams.

tsherkin wrote:

Hair Jordan wrote:Jordan is a better midrange shooter than KD. Durant is a better shooter everywhere else.

That's not a definitive thing, no. Jordan is certainly a contender in that realm, though, surely.

McBubbles wrote:The estimates I've seen for Jordan's mid-range shooting peak at 51.0% on 11.0 FGA.

KD peaked at 55.5% on 7.4 FGA and 56.0% on 7.0 FGA in 2023 and 2024 respectively, though he played 55 and 47 games respectively also which probably boost his percentages. He was actually pretty overrated as a mid-range shooter until he went to Golden State / was surrounded by 3 point shooting in general. 2014 KD has a pretty much identical mid-range volume and percentage to 2011 Lebron for instance.

Dirk peaked at 52.9% on 9.1 FGA in 2011 in 73 games which is incredible.

tsherkin wrote:

McBubbles wrote:The estimates I've seen for Jordan's mid-range shooting peak at 51.0% on 11.0 FGA.

He certainly reached around that. In 97, with some of his longer 2s being replaced by 3s, he shot 52.1% on approx 6.5 FGA/g in the 16+ range inside the arc. The year after, 46.2% on 7.58 FGA/g. And of course he was using it more in those seasons than earlier in his career when he could just barrel toward the rim and jump, then do whatever nonsense he did and finish (especially at faster game tempos).

I don't know about 11 FGA/g at that FG%, but then again, I also have not looked at tracking data for it.

tsherkin wrote:

McBubbles wrote:The estimates I've seen for Jordan's mid-range shooting peak at 51.0% on 11.0 FGA.

He certainly reached around that. In 97, with some of his longer 2s being replaced by 3s, he shot 52.1% on approx 6.5 FGA/g in the 16+ range inside the arc. The year after, 46.2% on 7.58 FGA/g. And of course he was using it more in those seasons than earlier in his career when he could just barrel toward the rim and jump, then do whatever nonsense he did and finish (especially at faster game tempos).

I don't know about 11 FGA/g at that FG%, but then again, I also have not looked at tracking data for it.

KD peaked at 55.5% on 7.4 FGA and 56.0% on 7.0 FGA in 2023 and 2024 respectively, though he played 55 and 47 games respectively also which probably boost his percentages. He was actually pretty overrated as a mid-range shooter until he went to Golden State / was surrounded by 3 point shooting in general. 2014 KD has a pretty much identical mid-range volume and percentage to 2011 Lebron for instance.

Dirk peaked at 52.9% on 9.1 FGA in 2011 in 73 games which is incredible.

So 2013 forward, KD has shot 49.5% on his 16- to 23-foot 2s, at 16.5% of his shooting volume. He shots those less than did Jordan, for sure. 50.5% from 10-16 feet and 49.2% from 3-10 feet. He has, in essence, shot 50% or so from 3-23 feet for over a decade. Now, you can call 3-10 the short game and that's fine, but it doesn't change that he's shot still around 49-50% from 10-23 feet, which is the mid-range area. That is comparable (at worst) to 97 and later MJ, and likely quite similar to his prime numbers as well, I'd imagine.

Either way, until I see proper tracked data, then I will have them in the same tier in that regard.

Dirk was a 47% shooter from 10-23 feet for basically his whole career. Obviously he had a few seasons where he exceeded that, and from 2011-2014, he was a 46.5 / 51.6% shooter in those two zones.

There is a pro-KD argument to made. I don't consider it authoritative, there are good arguments for several others, but he is surely in the discussion, and legitimately so.

Owly wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

McBubbles wrote:The estimates I've seen for Jordan's mid-range shooting peak at 51.0% on 11.0 FGA.

He certainly reached around that. In 97, with some of his longer 2s being replaced by 3s, he shot 52.1% on approx 6.5 FGA/g in the 16+ range inside the arc. The year after, 46.2% on 7.58 FGA/g. And of course he was using it more in those seasons than earlier in his career when he could just barrel toward the rim and jump, then do whatever nonsense he did and finish (especially at faster game tempos).

I don't know about 11 FGA/g at that FG%, but then again, I also have not looked at tracking data for it.

The caveat on the '97 (and immediately after numbers, maybe to a lesser degree?) is they are reportedly ... iffy ... in terms of shot location data. This (as you say in concert with the shortened line) gives some very high numbers early on.

I did do a slightly fuller list one time but looking up some shooters I half remember (from Reference's 16ft to 3pt, 1997)
Dell Curry .615
Steve Kerr: .675
Tyrone Bogues: .672
Dana Barros: .674
Hubert Davis: .623

Small samples in a specific range in a specific year and shooting does fluctuate, not all shooters look "hot" ...

I'd tend to take those numbers with a pinch (or more) of salt.

McBubbles wrote:

Owly wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
He certainly reached around that. In 97, with some of his longer 2s being replaced by 3s, he shot 52.1% on approx 6.5 FGA/g in the 16+ range inside the arc. The year after, 46.2% on 7.58 FGA/g. And of course he was using it more in those seasons than earlier in his career when he could just barrel toward the rim and jump, then do whatever nonsense he did and finish (especially at faster game tempos).

I don't know about 11 FGA/g at that FG%, but then again, I also have not looked at tracking data for it.

The caveat on the '97 (and immediately after numbers, maybe to a lesser degree?) is they are reportedly ... iffy ... in terms of shot location data. This (as you say in concert with the shortened line) gives some very high numbers early on.

I did do a slightly fuller list one time but looking up some shooters I half remember (from Reference's 16ft to 3pt, 1997)
Dell Curry .615
Steve Kerr: .675
Tyrone Bogues: .672
Dana Barros: .674
Hubert Davis: .623

Small samples in a specific range in a specific year and shooting does fluctuate, not all shooters look "hot" ...

I'd tend to take those numbers with a pinch (or more) of salt.

I also remember some of those 98 numbers looking strange. I discount 97 entirely due to the shortened 3 point line but even 98 was odd. I know that Karl Malone can shoot well for a big but his mid-range numbers had him looking like Dirk. Dude shot 48% on 10 shots per game from the mid-range and 51% on 6 shots per game from 16-24ft specifically. That's one of the best marks of all time. Very odd at face value.

https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2020/04/nba-play-by-play-lineup-and-shooting-stats-added-back-to-1996-97/ wrote:SHOOTING STATS: Shot charts and shooting statistics by distance have also been extended back to 1996-97 (previously these statistics went back to 2000-01 on the site). Before we point out where this data is, let us give a heavy disclaimer: SHOT LOCATION DATA FOR THE 1990s (PARTICULARLY 1996-97) IS SUSPECT. From 1996-97 through 1999-00 there are 194,239 field goal attempts for which the official play-by-play has no associated shot distance or location coordinates. For perspective, that is over a quarter of all field goals attempts for these seasons. Over 75% of these orphaned shots have been labeled as layups in the play-by-play accounts. The other most common descriptors for these shot attempts are dunk (over 15%) and tip shot (over 7%). Fewer than 2% are labeled as jump shots or hook shots. For the 1996-97 season, it is obvious that many missed jump shots were labelled as missed layups with no distance or coordinate data. So for 1996-97, in particular, and later 90s seasons to a lesser extent, field goal percentages at the rim and on layups are artificially deflated and field goal percentages on jump shots are artificially inflated. For instance, this missed Jordan turnaround fadeaway jumper is listed in official play-by-play as a missed layup. 1996-97 is the first season of the official digitized play-by-play, so it should come as no surprise that there are some issues with the data. It seems some teams may have been impacted by this more than others, with the 1996-97 Celtics (and David Wesley, in particular) having some very suspicious shooting splits by distance. We have decided to print these numbers, but we urge caution in utilizing them to prove any points.

Owly wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

McBubbles wrote:The estimates I've seen for Jordan's mid-range shooting peak at 51.0% on 11.0 FGA.

He certainly reached around that. In 97, with some of his longer 2s being replaced by 3s, he shot 52.1% on approx 6.5 FGA/g in the 16+ range inside the arc. The year after, 46.2% on 7.58 FGA/g. And of course he was using it more in those seasons than earlier in his career when he could just barrel toward the rim and jump, then do whatever nonsense he did and finish (especially at faster game tempos).

I don't know about 11 FGA/g at that FG%, but then again, I also have not looked at tracking data for it.

The caveat on the '97 (and immediately after numbers, maybe to a lesser degree?) is they are reportedly ... iffy ... in terms of shot location data. This (as you say in concert with the shortened line) gives some very high numbers early on.

I did do a slightly fuller list one time but looking up some shooters I half remember (from Reference's 16ft to 3pt, 1997)
Dell Curry .615
Steve Kerr: .675
Tyrone Bogues: .672
Dana Barros: .674
Hubert Davis: .623

Small samples in a specific range in a specific year and shooting does fluctuate, not all shooters look "hot" ...

I'd tend to take those numbers with a pinch (or more) of salt.