RealGM

Names Brought Up In the Podcast: Karl Anthony Towns, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Jalen Brunson, Ja Morant, Kyrie Irving, Dirk Nowitzki(2014), Tyrese Haliburton

HM(Considered for top 10): Russell Westbrook, Joel Embiid, Trae Young

10) SGA

9) Damian Lillard

8) Kawhi Leonard

All In the Same Group/Range

7) Chris Paul

6) James Harden

5) Kevin Durant

4) Luka Doncic

GAP Three of the Greatest Offensive Players

3) Lebron James

2) Nikola Jokic(Uncertainty about his three point shooting)

1) Stephen Curry


??? thought on bens rankings

Ben taylor usually gives a lot of weight to the ceiling raising concept of how well a player fits with other high end talent to create elite offense

So is weird he ranks jokic above lebron when is actually james who has got the higher level offense and has created goat tier team offense runs when playing in offensively great teams

Same with curry who even in the durant years didnt produce more dominant offenses runs that lebron did with the cavs in the same period

The separation between luka and paul/harden with durant inbetween is also a bit weird to me.

Luka has not produced better team results than them offensively as a solo superstar or with another all star teammate and harden/paul actually have the plus-minus metrics over luka if i am not mistaken (which ben says he values highly)

Luka is not exactly more off ball than them either (somethingh else he values highly and values a lot for durant who has less impressive solo runs and impact metrics than paul/harden)

Ben keeps ranking luka over harden when luka has yet to come close to matching peak harden which i still contend is the 2019-2020 szn

Putting durant inbetween the paul/harden/luka group is just odd

Almost feels like it was a bit ring/rep weighted as luka has a much higher rep today and harden/paul have the "choker" stigma (up to evaluate to everyone if fairly)

Almost any reasoning for luka>durant should prolly lead to paul/harden> durant too

falcolombardi wrote:Ben taylor usually gives a lot of weight to the ceiling raising concept of how well a player fits with other high end talent to create elite offense

So is weird he ranks jokic above lebron when is actually james who has got the higher level offense and has created goat tier team offense runs when playing in offensively great teams

Same with curry who even in the durant years didnt produce more dominant offenses runs that lebron did with the cavs in the same period

the question i would ask ben taylor if i could talk to him would be, why is steph curry unable to lead his team to the playoffs despite the cast he has on his team. Im not saying curry is playing with an amazing roster. But ive seen harden carry argubaly the same level or if not worse talent to the wcf in 2015. Ben has curry number 1 as an offensive player, and he even had curry as a top 7 players this past szn. But my question is why is it not translating to the court. Like 2 years ago the warriors went an abysmal 11-30 on the road.. and had to fight like heck to get in the playin, while last year they missed the playoffs completly

what is ben seeing that has him down on harden like this, because i remeber that ben used to say that harden only generated massive impact due to his usage, well the past 2 szns proved that wrong, just like "harden not being portable.: Ben is a smart guy, so it puzzles me why he chooses to use the eye test for players like harden/embiid and then use the advanced stats for players he likes to fit his argument/agenda

Own list first
1. Steph (-)
2. LeBron (+1)

3. Jokic (-1)
4. Harden (+2)

5. Chris Paul (+2)
6. Kawhi (+2)
7. Doncic (-3)
8. Westbrook (+>2)
9. Durant (-4)

10. Dame (-1)
HMs: bunch of other guys

I dunno, nothing too crazy at first glance, obviously we have some differences. KD is a guy I've seen generally be as bit more of an excellent #2 guy in a lot of his locations, which I'm hesitant to shoot really highly up the rankings (offense only, he's a better defender than several of the guys above him). Kawhi is tricky to place due to the consistent injury issues (CP3 a similar problem). I bumped CP3/Kawhi to the top of tier 3 from the bottom of tier 2 due to those health issues.

Doncic just looks like a less proven Harden to me as of now, generally with worse metrics to back him up.

falcolombardi wrote:Ben taylor usually gives a lot of weight to the ceiling raising concept of how well a player fits with other high end talent to create elite offense

So is weird he ranks jokic above lebron when is actually james who has got the higher level offense and has created goat tier team offense runs when playing in offensively great teams)

Yeah…even when looking granularly at it, there really hasn’t been any outlandish singular playoff series. The 2023 run was very good until the finals. His last three playoff series at the height of his powers most likely have been negative rORtg. 2015 Cavs vs. the Bulls with Smith suspended a game, Kyrie hobbled, no Love and the rORtg in the series would be near the top for Jokic as would the 2015 Hawks series. Even looking at the offense created with Jokic on court and the rORtgs there is underwhelming when comparing against others. So obviously really good from Jokic but to be placed that high.l.

Based on a composite of advanced stats from 2015 to 2023:
1. Stephen Curry
2. James Harden
3. LeBron James
4. Damian Lillard
5. Kevin Durant
6. Nikola Jokic
7. Chris Paul
8. Luka Doncic
9. Trae Young
10. Kawhi Leonard

I can agree that ranking Jokic over Lebron is a bit premature. I would side with Lebron too although Jokic can make his case a lot stronger with more runs like 2023.

Jokic' team offenses have been quite good, especially considering the relative lack of offensive talent and injuries in many of these runs. I was curious so I dug up the numbers on the subject.

Jokic Nuggets rORtg by Series

2019 vs. Spurs: +3.6
2019 vs. Blazers: +4.1
2020 vs. Jazz: +9.1
2020 vs. Clippers: +2.6
2020 vs. Lakers: +6.8
2021 vs. Blazers: +7.0
2021 vs. Suns: -3.5
2022 vs. Warriors: +7.2
2023 vs. Wolves: +5.3
2023 vs. Suns: +8.4
2023 vs. Lakers: +9.4
2023 vs. Heat: +1.5
2024 vs. Lakers: -1.0
2024 vs. Wolves: -0.5

The funny thing is 2023 is the only postseason in his prime he had a healthy team.

My list would be something like:
1. 2017/18 LeBron
2. 2016/17 Steph
3. 2022/23 Jokic

4. 2024 Luka
5. 2019/20 Harden
6. 2017 Durant

7. 2014-16 CP3
8. 2021 Kawhi

9. 2023 Dame
10. 2016/17 Russ

homecourtloss wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:Ben taylor usually gives a lot of weight to the ceiling raising concept of how well a player fits with other high end talent to create elite offense

So is weird he ranks jokic above lebron when is actually james who has got the higher level offense and has created goat tier team offense runs when playing in offensively great teams)

Yeah…even when looking granularly at it, there really hasn’t been any outlandish singular playoff series. The 2023 run was very good until the finals. His last three playoff series at the height of his powers most likely have been negative rORtg. 2015 Cavs vs. the Bulls with Smith suspended a game, Kyrie hobbled, no Love and the rORtg in the series would be near the top for Jokic as would the 2015 Hawks series. Even looking at the offense created with Jokic on court and the rORtgs there is underwhelming when comparing against others. So obviously really good from Jokic but to be placed that high.l.

Obviously team offensive performance in the playoffs is not everything but if you’re talking about the best offensive player, well, it does mean a lot, and it seems strange to place Jokic above James.