RealGM

Splitter, Mohammed, Oberto? Someone else?

I always liked Diaw

Just the fact that discussion will open with guys like Oberto, Splitter, Nazr, Elson, Dedmon, K.Thomas, etc, says it all. Duncan had very little help at the 5 spot, including the latter years of D.Rob who was washed.

One_and_Done wrote:Just the fact that discussion will open with guys like Oberto, Splitter, Nazr, Elson, Dedmon, K.Thomas, etc, says it all. Duncan had very little help at the 5 spot, including the latter years of D.Rob who was washed.

TBF, Duncan played a lot of center, so this is less relevant than it seems.

tsherkin wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Just the fact that discussion will open with guys like Oberto, Splitter, Nazr, Elson, Dedmon, K.Thomas, etc, says it all. Duncan had very little help at the 5 spot, including the latter years of D.Rob who was washed.

TBF, Duncan played a lot of center, so this is less relevant than it seems.

He 'played alot of C' is something that is always claimed, but throughout his prime (and even later years to some degree) he always started next to a 5 man. Where do you think guys like Rasho, D.Rob, Elson, Oberto, Nazr, Splitter, etc, were playing if not the 5? The majority of his minutes were clearly at the 4.

One_and_Done wrote:Just the fact that discussion will open with guys like Oberto, Splitter, Nazr, Elson, Dedmon, K.Thomas, etc, says it all. Duncan had very little help at the 5 spot, including the latter years of D.Rob who was washed.

The idea of ... it's unclear which years but the plural indicates at very latest 2002 is included ... say 2002 David Robinson is "very little help" and may be in any way akin to Francisco Elson is ... a take.



For the broader question otoh- and assuming we're somewhat prime-ish era and can't just take Aldridge - pure big ... probably Splitter.

Glancing at the field including some unmentioned players ...

Thomas was probably falling off a bit but seems to have still been sticking the J from mid-ranges which is what you ideally want next to Tim and he was a pretty smart defender.

Blair was moderately productive and moreso in the playoffs for most of his spell. I think given his skillset he'd be more a sub-for Duncan? On-off stuff is pretty ugly (though these too, in the tiny playoff samples so heap of salt here, look better in the playoffs).

Nesterovic has one solid production year where the on-off is weaker then his impact side stuff gets better but his production weaker ... don't know if his lineup usage changed or what ... (fwiw, production did bounce back for a year in Toronto).

At peak Diaw gives a nice different look with his skill if he counts as a big.

Low-key at that time just having a good full 3pt spacing had some real value so someone like Bonner or briefly Novak had some value (fwiw, in a limited sample Bonner falls off in the playoffs).

I discussed the overrated 2002 D.Rob in the top 100 project. He was a role player in 02.

SS_Carpathia wrote:Splitter, Mohammed, Oberto? Someone else?

Splitter. He wasn’t going to do much on offense, but he was a very solid defender with good instincts, good mobility, and strength.

One_and_Done wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Just the fact that discussion will open with guys like Oberto, Splitter, Nazr, Elson, Dedmon, K.Thomas, etc, says it all. Duncan had very little help at the 5 spot, including the latter years of D.Rob who was washed.

TBF, Duncan played a lot of center, so this is less relevant than it seems.

He 'played alot of C' is something that is always claimed, but throughout his prime (and even later years to some degree) he always started next to a 5 man. Where do you think guys like Rasho, D.Rob, Elson, Oberto, Nazr, Splitter, etc, were playing if not the 5? The majority of his minutes were clearly at the 4.

That's not true though, at least not in the playoffs:

RS

Duncan, Rasho on: 3410 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 880 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 817 min
Duncan, Elson on: 781 min

Duncan on, rest off: 4353 min

PS

Duncan, Rasho on: 282 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 411 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 257 min
Duncan, Elson on: 159 min

Duncan on, rest off: 1390 min
Duncan + at least one of 4: 1109 min

Duncan played more minutes without any of these 4 in the postseason than with any "center type" player. That's without going into details like Oberto not being a true center for example.

Duncan was a center and clearly so after Robinson retirement.

Rasho was the comedian... Splitter looked really good with some defense and strength. D-Rob was obviously our one and only legend, even at an older age.

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
TBF, Duncan played a lot of center, so this is less relevant than it seems.

He 'played alot of C' is something that is always claimed, but throughout his prime (and even later years to some degree) he always started next to a 5 man. Where do you think guys like Rasho, D.Rob, Elson, Oberto, Nazr, Splitter, etc, were playing if not the 5? The majority of his minutes were clearly at the 4.

That's not true though, at least not in the playoffs:

RS

Duncan, Rasho on: 3410 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 880 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 817 min
Duncan, Elson on: 781 min

Duncan on, rest off: 4353 min

PS

Duncan, Rasho on: 282 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 411 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 257 min
Duncan, Elson on: 159 min

Duncan on, rest off: 1390 min
Duncan + at least one of 4: 1109 min

Duncan played more minutes without any of these 4 in the postseason than with any "center type" player. That's without going into details like Oberto not being a true center for example.

Duncan was a center and clearly so after Robinson retirement.

He was both. Where does Malik Rose' minutes fall in the playoffs for instance? I get he was 6 inches shorter than Duncan, but clearly on offense he was playing center.

I've never understand why so many care about this though? I know you have no agenda at least unlike those who want him to be a center to elevate a different PF--ironically this is never Dirk guys and even more ironically Dirk played a ton of center himself but nobody ever tries to call Dirk a center....

He's a big. Playing next to another traditional big or not, he's a big. And at absolute worst the 3rd best big of all-time with arguments for being not only the best big, but the best player--or at least having had the best career(though for me personally Lebron has simply done too much at this point and he's still adding value somehow....).

We can call him a center for those who need that. But he obviously was quite effective playing next to other guys who were centers. And so when discussing versatility or portability that's important to note. Not all "centers" could have done so.

Texas Chuck wrote:

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:He 'played alot of C' is something that is always claimed, but throughout his prime (and even later years to some degree) he always started next to a 5 man. Where do you think guys like Rasho, D.Rob, Elson, Oberto, Nazr, Splitter, etc, were playing if not the 5? The majority of his minutes were clearly at the 4.

That's not true though, at least not in the playoffs:

RS

Duncan, Rasho on: 3410 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 880 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 817 min
Duncan, Elson on: 781 min

Duncan on, rest off: 4353 min

PS

Duncan, Rasho on: 282 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 411 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 257 min
Duncan, Elson on: 159 min

Duncan on, rest off: 1390 min
Duncan + at least one of 4: 1109 min

Duncan played more minutes without any of these 4 in the postseason than with any "center type" player. That's without going into details like Oberto not being a true center for example.

Duncan was a center and clearly so after Robinson retirement.

He was both. Where does Malik Rose' minutes fall in the playoffs for instance? I get he was 6 inches shorter than Duncan, but clearly on offense he was playing center.

I've never understand why so many care about this though? I know you have no agenda at least unlike those who want him to be a center to elevate a different PF--ironically this is never Dirk guys and even more ironically Dirk played a ton of center himself but nobody ever tries to call Dirk a center....

He's a big. Playing next to another traditional big or not, he's a big. And at absolute worst the 3rd best big of all-time with arguments for being not only the best big, but the best player--or at least having had the best career(though for me personally Lebron has simply done too much at this point and he's still adding value somehow....).

We can call him a center for those who need that. But he obviously was quite effective playing next to other guys who were centers. And so when discussing versatility or portability that's important to note. Not all "centers" could have done so.

My point here, in case this was related at all to my remark, was more like yours: being a center or not isn't really relevant. And One_and_Done noting that Duncan didn't have a lot of help at the 5 is less relevant than it might seem on first pass.

Probably Diaw if you don't take into account Duncan being older. In terms of the best combo of peak Duncan and a big, idk, Splitter was my favorite traditional big but he also caught early 2010s Duncan. Honestly just having Bonner at 3pt line was probably more effective than these bodies like Rasho, Oberto, Nazr, etc. it was just earlier era where people didn't realize it.

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
TBF, Duncan played a lot of center, so this is less relevant than it seems.

He 'played alot of C' is something that is always claimed, but throughout his prime (and even later years to some degree) he always started next to a 5 man. Where do you think guys like Rasho, D.Rob, Elson, Oberto, Nazr, Splitter, etc, were playing if not the 5? The majority of his minutes were clearly at the 4.

That's not true though, at least not in the playoffs:

RS

Duncan, Rasho on: 3410 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 880 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 817 min
Duncan, Elson on: 781 min

Duncan on, rest off: 4353 min

PS

Duncan, Rasho on: 282 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 411 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 257 min
Duncan, Elson on: 159 min

Duncan on, rest off: 1390 min
Duncan + at least one of 4: 1109 min

Duncan played more minutes without any of these 4 in the postseason than with any "center type" player. That's without going into details like Oberto not being a true center for example.

Duncan was a center and clearly so after Robinson retirement.

As Texas Chuck alludes to, this is not a real analysis because it doesn't consider who else was on the team getting minutes at the time.

Texas Chuck wrote:

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:He 'played alot of C' is something that is always claimed, but throughout his prime (and even later years to some degree) he always started next to a 5 man. Where do you think guys like Rasho, D.Rob, Elson, Oberto, Nazr, Splitter, etc, were playing if not the 5? The majority of his minutes were clearly at the 4.

That's not true though, at least not in the playoffs:

RS

Duncan, Rasho on: 3410 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 880 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 817 min
Duncan, Elson on: 781 min

Duncan on, rest off: 4353 min

PS

Duncan, Rasho on: 282 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 411 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 257 min
Duncan, Elson on: 159 min

Duncan on, rest off: 1390 min
Duncan + at least one of 4: 1109 min

Duncan played more minutes without any of these 4 in the postseason than with any "center type" player. That's without going into details like Oberto not being a true center for example.

Duncan was a center and clearly so after Robinson retirement.

He was both. Where does Malik Rose' minutes fall in the playoffs for instance? I get he was 6 inches shorter than Duncan, but clearly on offense he was playing center.

I've never understand why so many care about this though? I know you have no agenda at least unlike those who want him to be a center to elevate a different PF--ironically this is never Dirk guys and even more ironically Dirk played a ton of center himself but nobody ever tries to call Dirk a center....

He's a big. Playing next to another traditional big or not, he's a big. And at absolute worst the 3rd best big of all-time with arguments for being not only the best big, but the best player--or at least having had the best career(though for me personally Lebron has simply done too much at this point and he's still adding value somehow....).

We can call him a center for those who need that. But he obviously was quite effective playing next to other guys who were centers. And so when discussing versatility or portability that's important to note. Not all "centers" could have done so.

I agree with all you said, except that Malik Rose was 100% typical PF from that era.

One_and_Done wrote:

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:He 'played alot of C' is something that is always claimed, but throughout his prime (and even later years to some degree) he always started next to a 5 man. Where do you think guys like Rasho, D.Rob, Elson, Oberto, Nazr, Splitter, etc, were playing if not the 5? The majority of his minutes were clearly at the 4.

That's not true though, at least not in the playoffs:

RS

Duncan, Rasho on: 3410 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 880 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 817 min
Duncan, Elson on: 781 min

Duncan on, rest off: 4353 min

PS

Duncan, Rasho on: 282 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 411 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 257 min
Duncan, Elson on: 159 min

Duncan on, rest off: 1390 min
Duncan + at least one of 4: 1109 min

Duncan played more minutes without any of these 4 in the postseason than with any "center type" player. That's without going into details like Oberto not being a true center for example.

Duncan was a center and clearly so after Robinson retirement.

As Texas Chuck alludes to, this is not a real analysis because it doesn't consider who else was on the team getting minutes at the time.

Show me what a real analysis is then.

70sFan wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:

70sFan wrote:That's not true though, at least not in the playoffs:

RS

Duncan, Rasho on: 3410 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 880 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 817 min
Duncan, Elson on: 781 min

Duncan on, rest off: 4353 min

PS

Duncan, Rasho on: 282 min
Duncan, Nazr on: 411 min
Duncan, Oberto on: 257 min
Duncan, Elson on: 159 min

Duncan on, rest off: 1390 min
Duncan + at least one of 4: 1109 min

Duncan played more minutes without any of these 4 in the postseason than with any "center type" player. That's without going into details like Oberto not being a true center for example.

Duncan was a center and clearly so after Robinson retirement.

He was both. Where does Malik Rose' minutes fall in the playoffs for instance? I get he was 6 inches shorter than Duncan, but clearly on offense he was playing center.

I've never understand why so many care about this though? I know you have no agenda at least unlike those who want him to be a center to elevate a different PF--ironically this is never Dirk guys and even more ironically Dirk played a ton of center himself but nobody ever tries to call Dirk a center....

He's a big. Playing next to another traditional big or not, he's a big. And at absolute worst the 3rd best big of all-time with arguments for being not only the best big, but the best player--or at least having had the best career(though for me personally Lebron has simply done too much at this point and he's still adding value somehow....).

We can call him a center for those who need that. But he obviously was quite effective playing next to other guys who were centers. And so when discussing versatility or portability that's important to note. Not all "centers" could have done so.

I agree with all you said, except that Malik Rose was 100% typical PF from that era.

Certainly didn't look a lot different from Reggie Evans or Danny Fortson at the 4.

70sFan wrote:
I agree with all you said, except that Malik Rose was 100% typical PF from that era.

But he played center for the Spurs. I mean I followed this team pretty close because they were the constant obstacle in the way of the best Mavs era ever. Rose was a center. As was a guy like Blair who was also short.

I think the point is those who want to point out Duncan wasn't just a center, but a guy who played next to centers a good bit of time, aren't wrong to do so.

Even if to you(and others) he was a center. Certainly on most teams he would have been a center. But his ability to play with a center is pertinent when we evaluate him. Heck, he even spent part of his rookie year with Perdue starting alongside he and Robinson lol. Including 7 of 9 playoff games.

This isn't a guy who was just a center. Clearly. Nothing else matters.

Texas Chuck wrote:

This isn't a guy who was just a center.

I don't think anyone was arguing that he was solely a center.