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General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1966-67.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 10:00am EST on Wednesday, September 4th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Oscar Robertson
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Rick Barry

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Nate Thurmond
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt Chamberlain

Player of the Year

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Nate Thurmond
3. Bill Russell
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Rick Barry

Thurmond is first on my DPoY ballot — ending Russell’s ten-year unanimous streak — and second on my RPoY ballot, primarily for reasons outlined in the Peaks project.

AEnigma wrote:

ThaRegul8r wrote:“Thurmond is the key to our team. You’ve got to have a great center. We have one in Thurmond. The Celtics have Bill Russell, the 76ers have Wilt Chamberlain. We’d still be up there without me but not without Thurmond.” — Rick Barry
The Pittsburgh Press, February 3, 1967

“The growing number of people who think Nate Thurmond is the most valuable big man in pro basketball picked up a whole new group of believers Friday night.”
— LA Times writer Dan Hafer, after the Warriors lose to LA 129-80 without Thurmond
Los Angeles Times, February 4, 1967

“The Warriors, despite Super Soph. Rick Barry’s heroics, never would have won the Western Division title this season nor made it to the playoffs, for that matter, had it not been for Thurmond’s defensive work under the boards.”
The Pittsburgh Press, March 30, 1967

“If there was any doubt prior to this series that San Francisco’s Nate Thurmond is Chamberlain’s heir apparent as the league’s best center, it was quickly dispelled.”
— Christian Science Monitor, April 26, 1967

“Nate Thurmond, the man who is the only heir to Chamberlain and Bill Russell. […] He performed marvelously against Chamberlain; it was not just by choice that Wilt shot so infrequently.” — Frank Deford
Sports Illustrated, May 8, 1967

Oct. 28, 1966, Thurmond had 19 points and 25 rebounds in a 105-104 win over Baltimore, and “blocked a shot by Gus Johnson that would have tied the game […]” (The Sumter Daily Item, Oct. 29, 1966). Jeff Mullins tied up Baltimore’s Don Ohl with 39 seconds left. “With these key plays stopping the Bullets, Jim King connected on a 10-foot jump shot with 26 seconds left for the San Francisco victory” (The Sumter Daily Item, Oct. 29, 1966). Nov. 14, 1966, Thurmond had 20 points, 30 rebounds and 15 blocked shots in a 115-104 win over Detroit (The Evening Independent, Nov. 15, 1966). Dec. 8, 1966, Rick Barry had an off night with 21 points on 8-for-33 shooting (24.2%) in a 116-106 loss to Baltimore, but Thurmond picked up the slack with 30 points. Dec. 22, 1966, Thurmond held Wilt Chamberlain to 14 points (6-12 FG) and outrebounded him 25-22 in a 116-114 loss to Philadelphia (Tri City Herald, Dec. 22, 1966).

Nate Thurmond, Wilt Chamberlain’s understudy when both played for San Francisco, hounded Philadelphia’s super star tenaciously but in vain Thursday night. Thurmond may have won the contest, but the 76ers won the game.

In the only National Basketball Association action, the Philadelphia 76ers outlasted a dogged Warrior squad and won, 116-114, although Thurmond held Chamberlain to 14 points and outrebounded the Big Dipper.

[…]

Thurmond played for years in Chamberlain’s super image. When the Big Dipper was traded by the Warriors to Philadelphia, Thurmond took over as San Francisco’s regular center.

Against Chamberlain, the Warrior center allowed only one field goal in six attempts in the first half. In the final quarter, however, Wilt made five of six attempts from the field and ended with 14 points.

Chamberlain had 22 rebounds and eight assists, Thurmond scored nine points, gathered in 25 rebounds and assisted on three goals.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=sXcoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IwYGAAAAIBAJ&pg=926,4442937"

In their next meeting, Feb. 2, 1967, Thurmond “blocked eight of Wilt’s shots, dominated both backboards with 23 rebounds and scored 16 points” in a 137-120 win over Philadelphia. “Chamberlain only managed 16 points” (Park City Daily News, Feb. 3, 1967).

San Francisco coach Bill Sharman said, “I consider Nate right in the same class, but kinda in between, a Russell or a Chamberlain. Bill Russell, now who’s a little quicker than either one of ’em, will go to the corners, block a shot, or get back underneath and get the big rebound, or again pick up the cutter. Where Nate, won’t go out quite as far, but he will go out a bit farther than Wilt. Now of course Wilt is much stronger than both of ’em, so he will muscle and do a better job in close”

Rick Barry was All-Star Game MVP with a game-high 38 points (16-27 FG, 6-8 FT)—second only to Wilt Chamberlain’s 42 in 1962, six rebounds and three assists in 34 minutes, but “[t]here are those who think it should have gone to Thurmond. ‘Nate was the equalizer,’ commented Coach Fred Schaus of Los Angeles who directed the West. ‘He was the entire key to the ball game. With Thurmond able to contest the entire East front line (on rebounds), we were able to run. This was our game plan’” (The Sumter Daily Item, Jan. 11, 1967). Thurmond had 16 points (7-16 FG, 2-4 FT) and 18 rebounds in 42 minutes. “Thurmond definitely was the most valuable player,” said Chamberlain. “He did the entire job while Barry just put the ball through the hoop.”

Feb. 5, 1967, Thurmond scored the winning basket on a tip-in with four seconds left and blocked a last shot in a 142-141 overtime win over Chicago. Feb. 10, 1967, Thurmond fractured two bones in his left hand during the second quarter of a 137-136 double overtime loss to Boston (The Free Lance-Star, Feb. 11, 1967). “If Thurmond is out for six weeks, he could miss one or two playoff games. But if he misses eight weeks, his teammates might join him on the sidelines because of elimination.”

Lodi News-Sentinel, March 15, 1967

The San Francisco Warriors clinched the Western Division regular season championship nine days ago, but it’s doubtful if they get anywhere when the National Basketball Association playoffs begin next week.

The combination of numerous injuries and erratic performances by those in good shape have resulted in a flock of defeats. The San Franciscans have lost nine of their last 11 contests and often looked like the worst team in the Western Division rather than the title winner.

The Warriors began to struggle when 6 ft. 11 in. center Nate Thurmond broke his hand against Boston Feb. 10. Thurmond is back but unless he’s in top shape for the playoffs, a doubtful prospect, the San Francisco pros will have a tough time beating anyone.

Sparked by high scoring Rick Barry and Thurmond, the Warriors got off to a fast start last October and had run up a 9½ game lead over second place St. Louis by the middle of January. They were breezing along until Thurmond’s injury.

[Thurmond] led Warriors to NBA Finals, and did best job on Chamberlain of anyone, and the Warriors did better in the postseason against the 76ers than anyone else. “It was a personal thing for us to fight back,” Thurmond said after San Francisco won Game 3. “Boston took only one game from the 76ers and as a matter of pride we want to do better than the Celtics [...].”

Elgee wrote:[1967] DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  Boston        91.2
2.  San Francisco 92.9
3.  Detroit       94.6
4.  Chicago       94.8
5.  Philadelphia  95.1
LEAGUE AVG.       96.1
6.  Los Angeles   97.3
7.  St. Louis     97.6
8.  Baltimore     98.2
9.  Cincinnati    98.8
10. New York      100.9

Ran the +/- for [1967] Thurmond:
w/out Thurmond - 119.1 ppg 126.6 opp ppg
with Thurmond - 123.2 ppg 117.8 opp ppg
That's a monstrous +12.9. It should be noted that the number is exaggerated by a pretty difficult schedule (SRS 1.13, 9H 6A).

Doing some rudimentary (i.e. no real SRS or even MOV analysis) WOWY work of my own…
1967: 38-26 with (3-0 with no Barry), 6-11 without (all with Barry in)
1968 (Barry gone): 32-19 with, 9-20 without
1969: 38-33 with, 3-8 without
1970: 21-21 with, 9-31 without
OVERALL 1967-70: 46.5-win pace with, 23-win pace without

AEnigma wrote:

- The Warriors generally did not have any notable offensive improvement when Thurmond missed time.

- The bulk of Thurmond’s “bad” shot attempts came when he was, for all his inefficiency, one of the three or four best scorers on the team; when Barry or Wilt were present, his shot rate was notably lower.

- Because Thurmond played so many minutes, and specifically more minutes than anyone else on his team, Thurmond’s shot rate superficially looks higher than it actually is.

- Barry’s highest volume scoring season occurred with Thurmond in 1967.

- Barry himself was not incredibly efficient throughout his career, yet ceding volume to other more efficient scorers did not produce more success than his two highest volume scoring seasons.

- When Thurmond replaced low volume Cliff Ray in Chicago, the shot rate of the other four starters maintained despite Thurmond allegedly being a shot vampire.

Worst to First '67 (up to 10 teams, and the last year I'll include every team here)

Bullets (20-61): Gus Johnson has a decent defensive rep from my memory, and the offensive stats are okay, but nowhere close to top 5 contention. Didn't seem to miss Ohl much in the games he missed (overall impact signals seem most positive for Howell who's gone to Boston).

Pistons (30-51): DeBusschere puts together a half decent defense, but the team overall is still not much good. Bing has a promising rookie season (not top 75 though).

Bulls (33-48): An expansion team that isn't terrible, nice. Would think teams would stop handing their offense over to Guy. Sloan might be the best defensive guard in history to this point, very strong on that end. Boozer does alright when allowed a bit more primacy. Got flattened by a mediocre Hawks team in the playoffs.

Knicks (36-45): Good offense, terrible defense. Bells you really were an alltime defense sinker. Reed is poised for his breakout into top 5 contention, but not there yet. Don't really push the Celtics, but Reed plays well (did Russell have Reed or Bells?).

Lakers (36-45): 32-34 with West. West misses the playoffs and won't be in my top 5 this season. Baylor bounces back a bit from a particularly down season last year, but not back to top 5 contention. Warriors dispatch them pretty easily.

Hawks (39-42): 25-23 with Zelmo. Decent balanced effort, look pretty alright in the playoffs, flattening the Bulls and then giving the Warriors a decent series. Do a decent job on limiting Barry's efficiency, but couldn't get much on offense. Good team, no great players (was nice to get Zelmo a vote last season).

Royals (39-42): Oscar/Lucas show as usual. Strong offense/weak defense, also as usual. Don't challenge the Sixers in the playoffs. Dierking randomly takes a bunch of shots vs the Sixers, do we have an explanation for that? Guess he does going forward as well. An odd mid-career jump. Anywho, Oscar will be top 5.

Warriors (44-37): 38-27 with Thurmond. Barry carries the offense, Nate the defense. Defense is a lot better than the offense. Barry's efficiency falls a bit in the playoffs. Go through the garbage West and then took two off the Sixers, which is pretty decent. Much more balanced effort from the Sixers to beat them. Thurmond/Barry both strong top 5 contenders for me, though they might be 4/5.

Celtics (60-21): Clear #2 team in the league, Russell and his merry men are once again an excellent squad. But excellence isn't enough this season. Strongly likely Bill is my #2. Howell helps at the forward spot, Hondo my #2 Celtic at this point, but not in top 5 contention.

Sixers (68-13): Clear best team in history to now (and I'd argue until the 2nd 3peat Bulls), Wilt #1/Greer #2/Great Depth and and a great coach willing and able to tell Wilt his best use was as a hub. It all came together and they dominated. The Warriors looked a bit closer than ideal in the Finals, but that's the worst I can say. Hooray for Wilt, my guy has figured out that playing a bit more like the guy who won all the titles helps your team. Easy #1 and one of the top peaks ever. I'm going to think about Greer for my top 5 and kind of want to get him there, but he may wind up #6, which bums me out.

Wilt #1
Russell #2
Oscar/Thurmond/Barry/Greer 3-6 (Greer probably the odd man out)

Not quite as sold on Thurmond though he's certainly top 5. Of the big 3, he's the best man defender and a strong rim protector, Wilt is the strongest overall and a stronger rim protector, Russell continues to not only protect the rim but to extend his protection farther away from the basket giving Boston again the best defense in the league though he has more help than the others defensively. It's certainly close. I'd have it Russell, Thurmond, Wilt then a big drop off after that.

Offensively Thurmond continues to shot far more than Russell, and even than Wilt this year despite hitting only .437 (with a FT% under .700) while playing quite close to the basket. Despite playing more minutes, Wilt takes only 14.4 GF/game v. Nate's 26.7 while going to the line over 10 times/game v. Nate's just under 7 times which, despite another horrid FT shooting season, puts other defensive bigs into foul trouble. Wilt also shoots .683, over half again what Nate does, while leading his team to the best record and the NBA title. Boston is also considerably better than the Warriors despite Barry having one of his best NBA seasons next to Thurmond. Wilt also racks up 7.8 assists/game to a pretty solid 5.6 for Russell playing further away from the basket to give Howell and his wings driving lanes, to a pretty anemic 2.4 for Thurmond.

POY
1. Wilt -- pretty easily
2. Russell
3. Thurmond
4. Oscar Robertson -- West misses playoffs or he would be around here for regular season
5. Rick Barry

I voted for Wilt last thread so I'll certainly be doing it this time, as the Celtics still have better supporting cast hands down than even the famed 67 Sixers group in my opinion. Barry seems like he has to be on the top 5. I give Havlicek the edge over Jones as the former has pretty solid playoffs on offense and I have to guess that Jones D is sliding a bit as he turns 34 a few months after playoffs. Not sure if I'll put Thurmond over him yet.

Thinking a bit more and it'll probably be decisions for 3/4 and 5/6. Barry's impact signal (especially early) just isn't strong enough for me to put him with Oscar/Thurmond.

Wilt
Russell
Oscar/Thurmond
Barry/Greer

ElGee wrote:Estimated Pace-Adjusted Numbers 1967


ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  Philadelphia  102.8
2.  Cincinnati   98.6
3.  New York     98.4
4.  Boston       97.7
5.  Los Angeles   97.5
6.  St. Louis    96.2
LEAGUE AVG.      96.1
7.  San Francisco 95.2
8.  Baltimore    93.0
9.  Chicago      91.8
10. Detroit      90.1

DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  Boston       91.2
2.  San Francisco 92.9
3.  Detroit      94.6
4.  Chicago      94.8
5.  Philadelphia  95.1
LEAGUE AVG.      96.1
6.  Los Angeles   97.3
7.  St. Louis    97.6
8.  Baltimore    98.2
9.  Cincinnati   98.8
10. New York     100.9

Code: Select all

        Pts/75  Reb/75 Ast/75 Rel TS%
======================================
Barry    24.5   6.3   2.5   3.8%
Jones    21.5   4.3   2.9   1.5%
Oscar    21.1   4.3   7.4   9.0%
Baylor   20.0   9.6   2.3   -0.2%
Reed     17.6   12.3   1.4   4.5%     
Greer    16.9   4.1   2.9   6.4%
Wilt     15.7   15.7   5.1   14.4%
Thurmond  12.3   14.0   1.7   -1.3%
Russell   9.6   15.2   4.2   0.7%


Wilt takes the #1 OPOY ahead of Oscar. Reasoning is best described by Sansterre in the spoiler below. West / Barry for 3rd spot was close. I went West despite the injury, as I think he was just the better player.



OPOY
1.Wilt Chamberlain
2.Oscar Robertson
3.Jerry West

HM:Rick Barry

Russell is still my #1 DPOY. Wilt / Thurmond likes for 2/3. DeBusschere was very good again, but hard to go up against these big rim protectors. Havlicek also gets a nod.

DPOY

1.Bill Russell
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Nate Thurmond

HM: Dave DeBusschere

Wilt is undeniably my POY. He elevated his game to a more team focus, and the results are astounding. He can still score when required, but does so at a historic efficiency. His passing game opened up his teammates, and his team’s offense. Cunningham, Walker, Greer all benefit from Wilt’s unselfish play and have great years in their own right.

Yes, Russell's individual scoring decreased, but he upped his creation, and his team was actually good on offense for the first time in a long time. Oscar still drives a great offense, but it's not #1 anymore thanks to Wilt. Celtics are still the best defense, though the rest of the pack is starting to close on them.

Thurmond in at 4 due to his defensive impact, and Barry over West for the playoffs.

POY
1.Wilt Chamberlain
2.Bill Russell
3.Oscar Robertson
4.Nate Thurmond
5.Rick Barry

HM:Jerry West

This is the obvious year where wilt breaks russel streak

Seems like the interesting vote will be 68 where i probably will be voting wilt even in the dissapointment of the final result

PoY

1. Wilt Chamberlain

Most obvious pick of the entire project. I used to be higher on this year and had it as a unanimous GOAT peak, now it's more in the 4-7 range for me (have LeBron, Jordan and Shaq as top 3, and then consider Wilt one level down on the same tier as Kareem, Duncan and Hakeem). In any case, I still have him higher than peak Russell and is the best single season we'll vote on for another 10 years minimum (could be 25).

Can't say much more than has already been said. Fifth in ppg, first in rpg, third in apg, all-time record efficiency... This was Jokic before Jokic, but add elite defense too. Just ridiculous. Looking back now, I really may reevaluate my peaks so that he's no lower than 5.

2. Bill Russell

I think he's been overrated in two of the last three years, but that being said, he's a clear no. 2 here. The Celtics still won 60 games, and that still mostly down to Russell. Hondo was improving, but given how bad the Celtics were the year after Russell retired, he wasn't a primary factor here.

3. Oscar Robertson

Mr Consistent submits another perfectly good year. Just wild that him and West both spent their primes putting up season-long TS% numbers that would be very impressive for guards on that volume even up until the mid 2010s. In the Playoffs against Wilt's Sixers, Oscar put up 62% TS. 62!!! In 1967!!!

4. Nate Thurmond

5. Rick Barry

Great year, but I think the Warriors get overrated because of the Finals run when the real Finals was very much the EDF. I mean, West and Baylor rightfully aren't getting much consideration here because the Lakers won only 36 games, but the Warriors weren't THAT much better with 44. They beat a West-less Lakers in the 1st round and then Zelmo Beatty's Hawks in the WDF, neither of which I am tremendously impressed by.

I'm fine with giving them these spots, but I think neither should be over Oscar (or West for that matter, who only misses out because of his injury)

Gonna stop being lazy and start doing the other two awards as well

OPoY

1. Oscar Robertson
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Rick Barry

DPoY

1. Bill Russell
2. Nate Thurmond
3. Wilt Chamberlain

ardee wrote:PoY

1. Wilt Chamberlain

Most obvious pick of the entire project. I used to be higher on this year and had it as a unanimous GOAT peak, now it's more in the 4-7 range for me (have LeBron, Jordan and Shaq as top 3, and then consider Wilt one level down on the same tier as Kareem, Duncan and Hakeem). In any case, I still have him higher than peak Russell and is the best single season we'll vote on for another 10 years minimum (could be 25).

Can't say much more than has already been said. Fifth in ppg, first in rpg, third in apg, all-time record efficiency... This was Jokic before Jokic, but add elite defense too. Just ridiculous. Looking back now, I really may reevaluate my peaks so that he's no lower than 5.

putting anyones peak over russ is crazy

wilt needs superteams to win. russ beats superteams on his own

ShaqAttac wrote:putting anyones peak over russ is crazy

wilt needs superteams to win. russ beats superteams on his own

I think Wilt ‘67 is on the same level as Russell ‘62-‘64.

ShaqAttac wrote:

ardee wrote:PoY

1. Wilt Chamberlain

Most obvious pick of the entire project. I used to be higher on this year and had it as a unanimous GOAT peak, now it's more in the 4-7 range for me (have LeBron, Jordan and Shaq as top 3, and then consider Wilt one level down on the same tier as Kareem, Duncan and Hakeem). In any case, I still have him higher than peak Russell and is the best single season we'll vote on for another 10 years minimum (could be 25).

Can't say much more than has already been said. Fifth in ppg, first in rpg, third in apg, all-time record efficiency... This was Jokic before Jokic, but add elite defense too. Just ridiculous. Looking back now, I really may reevaluate my peaks so that he's no lower than 5.

putting anyones peak over russ is crazy

wilt needs superteams to win. russ beats superteams on his own

Now you're just going way too far in the other direction imo. Russell never beat a superteam "on his own". I'm not even sure he ever even faced a superteam. It's great Russell is getting so much recognition for his impact in this project but he never once played on a team where he had to do it all himself like Wilt and Oscar in the early 60s.

ShaqAttac wrote:

ardee wrote:PoY

1. Wilt Chamberlain

Most obvious pick of the entire project. I used to be higher on this year and had it as a unanimous GOAT peak, now it's more in the 4-7 range for me (have LeBron, Jordan and Shaq as top 3, and then consider Wilt one level down on the same tier as Kareem, Duncan and Hakeem). In any case, I still have him higher than peak Russell and is the best single season we'll vote on for another 10 years minimum (could be 25).

Can't say much more than has already been said. Fifth in ppg, first in rpg, third in apg, all-time record efficiency... This was Jokic before Jokic, but add elite defense too. Just ridiculous. Looking back now, I really may reevaluate my peaks so that he's no lower than 5.

putting anyones peak over russ is crazy

wilt needs superteams to win. russ beats superteams on his own

This seems very much excessive. Russ wasnt playing with scrubs. One of his core players won two titles as a focal star after Russ retired and he had tons of strong roleplayers.

tsherkin wrote:

ShaqAttac wrote:

ardee wrote:PoY

1. Wilt Chamberlain

Most obvious pick of the entire project. I used to be higher on this year and had it as a unanimous GOAT peak, now it's more in the 4-7 range for me (have LeBron, Jordan and Shaq as top 3, and then consider Wilt one level down on the same tier as Kareem, Duncan and Hakeem). In any case, I still have him higher than peak Russell and is the best single season we'll vote on for another 10 years minimum (could be 25).

Can't say much more than has already been said. Fifth in ppg, first in rpg, third in apg, all-time record efficiency... This was Jokic before Jokic, but add elite defense too. Just ridiculous. Looking back now, I really may reevaluate my peaks so that he's no lower than 5.

putting anyones peak over russ is crazy

wilt needs superteams to win. russ beats superteams on his own

This seems very much excessive. Russ wasnt playing with scrubs. One of his core players won two titles as a focal star after Russ retired and he had tons of strong roleplayers.

they missed the playoffs 2 yrs in a row even when celts added future mvp.

that seems like scrubs to me.

ShaqAttac wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

ShaqAttac wrote:putting anyones peak over russ is crazy

wilt needs superteams to win. russ beats superteams on his own

This seems very much excessive. Russ wasnt playing with scrubs. One of his core players won two titles as a focal star after Russ retired and he had tons of strong roleplayers.

they missed the playoffs 2 yrs in a row even when celts added future mvp.

that seems like scrubs to me.

Sam Jones also retired, lest you forget. Their third-leading scorer. Russ' defense was clearly missed, as was his rebounding. He WAS a 5-time MVP, after all.

tsherkin wrote:

ShaqAttac wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
This seems very much excessive. Russ wasnt playing with scrubs. One of his core players won two titles as a focal star after Russ retired and he had tons of strong roleplayers.

they missed the playoffs 2 yrs in a row even when celts added future mvp.

that seems like scrubs to me.

Sam Jones also retired, lest you forget. Their third-leading scorer. Russ' defense was clearly missed, as was his rebounding. He WAS a 5-time MVP, after all.

Sam Jones the 6th man chucker on an average o? Didnt hondo also get alot better in 70?

MJ has 5 MVPs and Cap has 6 but i never seen their team go from superteam busters to bad.

Only other person to beat a superteam with meh was bron and he still got cooked when kd joined. Russ beat great team and then they added Wilt and Russ still won. And he wasnt even at his best.

ShaqAttac wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

ShaqAttac wrote:they missed the playoffs 2 yrs in a row even when celts added future mvp.

that seems like scrubs to me.

Sam Jones also retired, lest you forget. Their third-leading scorer. Russ' defense was clearly missed, as was his rebounding. He WAS a 5-time MVP, after all.

Sam Jones the 6th man chucker on an average o? Didnt hondo also get alot better in 70?

MJ has 5 MVPs and Cap has 6 but i never seen their team go from superteam busters to bad.

Only other person to beat a superteam with meh was bron and he still got cooked when kd joined. Russ beat great team and then they added Wilt and Russ still won. And he wasnt even at his best.

Jordan had a high-end All-Star running. BJ Armstrong and Ho Grant had their only AS seasons in 94. They also added Kerr, Kukoc and Longley in 94.

In 99, they won 13 games and werent good again until 05...

Kareem had a long, slow decline. In 90, they still had MVP-level Magic with Worthy, B Scott and Coop. Milwaukee won 38 games WITH Kareem in his final year as a Buck, and 38 the first year without him.

Both of those are awful examples.

Boston had been running as a -1 offense or so alongside Russell. He left and their D tanked. Jo Jo White was drafted in 69 and an AS in his second season. Dave Cowens was drafted in 70.


Same Jones had been an AS in 68, and while he struggled some in his last season, was generally an efficient scorer over his career. Boston had to change identities in order to rebuild. Havlicek hit his scoring peak from 70-73 and had to learn how to be a focal guy.

You dont just lose an MVP-caliber player and not feel it. Boston was assembled to run and defend. Their D tanked in their first year without Russell, then rebounded some, though obviously not to the same level. They needed to sort through improving their O first.

WILT

had best team but he cooked everyone and prob top 3 on d and o. Russ help weak but sixers smacked them and wilt had best numbers i guess. Also MVP.

THURMOND
Took stacked wilt team to 6 with weak team. cant be using the big wowy impact for russell and then ignore it when it likes thurmond too. Thurmond prob had even less help and didn't get dominated like Russell. no O but doesnt matter if u can carry with just ur d. Hes also maybe best at locking up ppl ever and became the kareem stopper. saying real finals was ecf when warriors almost took champs to 7 is cap.

also swept west and baylor.

RUSS
p impressive reg szn but got destroyed by the sixers. if celts had taken sixers to 7 maybe i vote for Russ but he didnt. He'll get the next two tho.

OSCAR
great numbers and great impact and the best o player in the league. led 2nd best o and made the playoffs and team cant do anything without him. 30/11 assists it doesnt seem he statpadding.

WEST
missed po but he still got great impact and is the 2nd best on o after Oscar.

ShaqAttac wrote:.

West was out injured and missed the playoffs.

tsherkin wrote:

ShaqAttac wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Sam Jones also retired, lest you forget. Their third-leading scorer. Russ' defense was clearly missed, as was his rebounding. He WAS a 5-time MVP, after all.

Sam Jones the 6th man chucker on an average o? Didnt hondo also get alot better in 70?

MJ has 5 MVPs and Cap has 6 but i never seen their team go from superteam busters to bad.

Only other person to beat a superteam with meh was bron and he still got cooked when kd joined. Russ beat great team and then they added Wilt and Russ still won. And he wasnt even at his best.

Jordan had a high-end All-Star running. BJ Armstrong and Ho Grant had their only AS seasons in 94. They also added Kerr, Kukoc and Longley in 94.

I do not see that as dramatically different from what the Celtics had in 1971.

In 99, they won 13 games and werent good again until 05...

Misleadingly framed by the lockout, but losing five of your seven best players — including your top three — is a far cry from losing your best player and then also the scorer who was at that point your ~fifth man. Granted, the results were worse in turn, but they were hardly replacing any of them with future hall-of-famers like Cowens…

Milwaukee won 38 games WITH Kareem in his final year as a Buck, and 38 the first year without him.

Both of those are awful examples.

Also misleadingly framed. They were 35-30 with Kareem, then replaced him with Junior Bridgeman, Brian Winters, and Elmore Smith… and were several games worse.

Wilt never showed that level of team impact, nor generally did West. After his rookie year, Russell did consistently.