Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE — Wilt Chamberlain

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Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE — Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Wed Sep 4, 2024 4:38 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1967-68.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 10:00am PST on Saturday, September 7th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Sep 4, 2024 5:01 pm

With the ABA coming onto the scene it'll be interesting to see if voters differ a lot in terms of how much they'll consider ABA guys. I think Connie Hawkins is very likely to make my POY ballot and might even have a shot at taking home OPOY with West missing a good chunk of games and Oscar not making the play-offs. Mel Daniels might also be able to get on some ballots but that's already a tougher ask than Hawkins.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by eminence » Wed Sep 4, 2024 5:16 pm

'68 is a funky year. Expansion has exploded, 2 new NBA teams + the ABA.

ABA: This year the league looks a bit like Hawkins playground. Clearly the best box-score player who leads the top team in the RS to the title. Decent WOWY score next season. He'll be on my POY ballot, unsure where yet. Daniels is a player I like broadly from the early ABA, but I think there's a needed offensive step coming next season to get him into ballot range. I could see him on DPOY ballots. Jones/Moe/etc are good players, but not ballot contenders for me.

Non-50 win NBA squads: Thurmond is strong when he plays, but misses a ton of time and the playoffs, will be off my ballot. Reed looks like the best Knick to me (no faith in Bells suddenly making a defensive jump). Oscar is 35-30 when he plays, team is terrible without him, strongest ballot contender here.

Sixers: Wilt #1/Greer #2 again. Injury trips Wilt up in the playoffs to some degree, but hard to see many finishing over him, the Sixers looked borderline dominant again in the regular season.

Hawks: Good/deep cast of lower level stars, good RS result. All-time PO collapse losing to the Warriors without Thurmond.

Celtics: Russell gets them back to the top of the heap. Hondo continuing to improve and probably their strongest #2 in a decade, maybe ever.

Lakers: They actually hold up without West this go around, shoutout to Baylor who I didn't anticipate contending for my top Laker spot this deep into his career. Beating the 29 win Bulls and the Warriors without Thurmond is perhaps the weakest conference run to the finals ever.

Early thoughts
Russell
Wilt
Hawkins/Oscar/Baylor/Hondo/West (Greer is close, but feels like a worse version of Hondo's argument)

Could shock myself with a 60s ballot with neither of West/Oscar on it.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by AEnigma » Wed Sep 4, 2024 5:50 pm

As with most contentious years, I will yet again strongly encourage voters to read through the previous project’s 1968 thread for a lot of excellent material and discussion which otherwise may not be repeated in this bloc’s direct voting explanations.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Oscar Robertson
2. Jerry West
3. Connie Hawkins


West is back in the postseason and accordingly back to second on this ballot. Possible he could have passed Oscar with better health, but as is there is not enough to prefer him when playing fourteen fewer games and 846 fewer minutes.

Taking Connie over Wilt because I think his playmaking was more offensively valuable in more contexts and because Wilt failed to maintain into the postseason. Currently placing Connie behind West based on my confidence in West’s passing, but willing to hear cases for Connie.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Nate Thurmond


Wilt tops Russell for the first time in the regular season… but as ever, Russell creeps back ahead of him in the postseason. Although I understand those who will leave Thurmond off this ballot because of the missed playoffs, frankly I think he is so far beyond any other player that I cannot justify awarding a rotation of lesser names who also failed to achieve anything in the postseason.

Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Connie Hawkins
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West


Dipper 13 wrote:Gettysburg Times - May 9, 1968

According to Vince Miller after the game Chamberlain got five touches in the fourth. Whether it two touches or five in the final period, all accounts agree that he got 7 touches in the 2nd half. This after 23 touches in the 1st half.

"What would I have looked like if I had said, 'Hey, we lost because my teammates didn't get the ball into me? If Alex Hannum didn't have guts enough to lay it on the line and accept a certain amount of responsibility for the loss and name the reasons why, then I've lost a lot of respect for him, which I have and I will tell him that when I see him. You can't shoot the ball if you don't have the ball. But you know something, after the game, not one writer came up to me and said 'Hey, how come the ball didn't come into you?' Not one. But all of them did ask me, 'How come you didn't shoot more?'"

A Bill Russell interview from 2008:

http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/printmember/rus0int-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Before we leave 1968 altogether, can we talk about game seven for a minute? In 1968 you limited your friend Wilt Chamberlain to two shot attempts in the entire second half of game seven.

That's not true at all. That was a coach's decision. There was a forward on their team named Chet Walker, and he was hurting us badly, okay? So I had my backup center, it was a guy named Wayne Embry. Now Embry had been in the league seven or eight years, and he played against Wilt all those years. So at half time I said to him, "Wayne, I'm going to try something. It's not new. I want you to guard Wilt. Okay? I have to take care of Chet Walker." And see, when I made that substitution everybody thought it was trying to stay out of foul trouble, something like that, which was to me the best part of that because I made adjustments that they didn't know what I was doing. So they couldn't make a counter adjustment. You see if you make an adjustment, and they know what you're doing, well they can just counter it. But I made an adjustment, they thought it was to get off of Wilt. They didn't know it was to get on Chet. Now Wilt had a game plan, but his game plan was counting on me trying to guard him. When we put Wayne on him, he guarded him a completely different way.

He was used to you guarding him.

Yes. To me, the pretty part of it was -- I hate to use the word beauty -- is that Wayne had enormous experience guarding him. So it wasn't like you took some guy out of the stands and put him on Wilt. Here's a guy who's been guarding him for years. That adjustment was for Chet Walker, it wasn't for Wilt.

Can you talk us through the last minute of the 1968 Eastern Finals?

It was a close game, but we were in charge. So they got to the place where they've got to foul us. So they fouled, and we make free throws and they go down, and they score and make three fouls. So they get down to 12 seconds to go. That's when the thing with Sam came up. It was going to that series. After we got down three to one...

I'm the coach, okay, and so I'm talking to my guys before the fifth game. And I says, "We're going to beat these guys, and this is how we're going to do it." And we had a rookie on the team who's now a judge in Boston, because he had an ailment, he had to retire, but he told me a few years ago, he said, "You know, I was in the locker room when you said that. That's the most disciplined situation I've ever been in my life, because I had to discipline myself from falling out on the floor laughing, when you said we're going to beat these guys." He says, "They're going to kill us!" And he says, "We haven't got a chance!" And he sat there and watched the whole thing happen. And he says that's one of the wonders of his life, because I said it with complete confidence. And then I said, like I said earlier, "We don't have to win three games in a row. We've just got to win one." You see, after we won two of them, the pressure completely shifts. The pressure is on them. You're up three to one, and how do you lose three straight?

So it was basically routine.

I think that that move that I made at half time was the most important move I made as a coach in that series, because it worked, and we got accomplished what we wanted to get accomplished without them knowing what we were trying to accomplish. See everybody still talks about the fact that Wilt only took two shots. They still almost won the game, right? And the key was that Chet Walker had been killing us. And I knew that I could guard him. And the reason I knew I could guard him is his moves were very deliberate. As part of my teaching myself, I learned -- we had six plays and nowadays they number those positions. One is point guard, two is shooting guard, three is a small forward, four is a power forward, five is a center. Well, I made a point to learn how to play all those positions on all six plays. Now not that I ever wanted to or hoped to play in those other positions, but in knowing those positions I know the problems that go with that position. So that if my teammate needed help I can help. And on defense I watched these guys, how they play defense, and I know how to guard almost any position. And I physically took over Chet.
ThaRegul8r wrote:“Russell has matured in his coaching,” said Pistons’ coach Donnie Butcher. “It should be interesting to see him match strategies with Alex Hannum. I think, under the circumstances, the series should go the distance” (Beaver Country Times, Apr. 1, 1968).

Eastern Division Finals – Boston Celtics (54-28) vs. Philadelphia 76ers (62-20)

Philadelphia won Game 3 122-114. “Philadelphia blew a 10-point lead before Greer, who had been held to 10 points earlier, got a hot hand” (St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 12, 1968), scoring 21 points in the fourth quarter. “Greer shot 8-for-14 from the field as he scored all but 12 of 33 points by the 76ers in the final 12 minutes. The 6-foot-2 guard would up with 31 points” (St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 12, 1968). “The Celtics were moving along right well […] for a time, making up a 77-67 deficit to go ahead 93-91, but by then defensive ace Bill Russell, Bailey Howell and Satch Sanders each had five fouls with 10:18 left” (Tri City Herald, Apr. 12, 1968). “That was the key to the game,” Greer said. “With Russell out of there it opened everything up. I just drove the middle and those little jumpers were wide open.” Wilt Chamberlain, “who suffered an injury on the calf muscle of his right leg in the first period,” scored 23 points, 25 rebounds and six assists (Tri City Herald, Apr. 12, 1968). Chamberlain pulled his calf muscle, and the injury “left him limping, but Trainer Al Domenico said it didn’t appear serious” (Tri City Herald, Apr. 12, 1968). Johnny Green—“turn[ing] in another standout relief job for the 76ers” (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Apr. 11, 1968)—had 17. John Havlicek led Boston with 29. Bill Russell had 13 points and 20 rebounds.

Boston won Game 5 122-104. “Sam Jones’ 37 points and a fine defensive job by burly Wayne Embry kept the Boston Celtics alive in the National Basketball Association playoffs […]” (The Sun, Apr. 16, 1968). Jones scored 37 points of 15-for-27 shooting from the floor and 7 of 11 from the line. The Associated Press wrote, “He broke the back of the team he describes as the strongest physically he’s ever seen” (Ellensburg Daily Record, Apr. 16, 1968). “When you’re down 3-1,” Jones said, “you just pull up your socks and get the job done” (Ellensburg Daily Record, Apr. 16, 1968). John Havlicek had 29 points and 10 assists, Russell grabbed 24 rebounds and scored eight points.

Philadelphia coach Alex Hannum said, “They came in here with an uphill fight staring them in the face. They were dedicated. They played a great defense, and when they forced us to take bad shots they seemed to get every rebound and take off down the court on the attack” (The Bryan Times, Apr. 16, 1968). “I just told them to go out there and play the kind of basketball I know they’re capable of,” Russell said. “The Celtics made 16 of 26 shots from the field in the final quarter to pull away while the 76ers went completely cold and made only seven of 29 attempts. Philadelphia sank only three of its first 22 shots in the last period” (The Bryan Times, Apr. 16, 1968). Chamberlain had 28 points and 30 rebounds for Boston.

In Game 6, Russell had 17 points (5-7 FT) and a game-high 31 rebounds as Boston won 114-106 to tie the series at 3-3. John Havlicek scored a team-high 28 points, Bailey Howell had 22 (12 in the final 12 minutes), and Sam Jones had 20. “John Havlicek, a tower of strength for the Celtics during the play-offs, and Bill Russell, player-coach, kept Boston in command almost all the way, despite a 40 point performance by Hal Greer of the 76ers. Havlicek, besides directing the Boston attack, scored 28 points. Russell, battling Wilt Chamberlain for rebounds, came away with a personal victory. He pulled down 31, to 27 for Chamberlain. And Bailey Howell had a big hand in the victory, scoring 12 of his 22 points in the last quarter, when the Celtics turned back a strong challenge” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 18, 1968). Hal Greer scored a game-high 40 points on 15-for-24 shooting from the floor (62.5%) and 10 of 13 shooting from the line for Philadelphia in defeat. Chamberlain had 20 points on 6-for-21 shooting from the floor (28.6%) and 8-of-23 shooting from the line (34.8%) and 27 rebounds. “The Celtics played without starting forward Tom Sanders, who is through for the series because of a back injury.” The oddsmakers said that it would be the Celtics’ last game of the season.

[Comment: This explains why Russell had to shift to guard Chet Walker. When Satch Sanders went down with back muscle spasms—putting him out for Games 6 and 7, the Celtics lost the player who'd be guarding Walker. So Russell did what needed to be done for the Celtics to win.]

“The home court doesn’t mean much to these two teams,” said Boston coach Bill Russell. “The team that has a good night wins; it’s as simple as that.” Philadelphia coach Alex Hannum said, “If the Celtics can come in there and beat us they deserve all the credit in the world, because they’re going to be up against a tough basketball team. We worked all season for the home court advantage. We’ve still got it. We’re going to have that crowd yelling for us Friday night” (The Free Lance-Star, Apr. 18, 1968).

Boston won Game 7 100-96 to complete an unprecedented comeback from a 3-1 deficit. Sam Jones led a balanced Boston attack with 23 points, Larry Siegfried had 18, and Bailey Howell had 17 (St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 20, 1968). “Celtics player-Coach Bill Russell scored 12 points, grabbed 26 rebounds, and blocked countless shots in what Chamberlain and other 76ers described as a magnificent performance” (Tuscaloosa News, Apr. 17, 1968) [Robert Cherry said he had 10, though I haven't found any corroboration yet], and Chamberlain had 14 points on 4-for-9 shooting from the floor and 6-of-15 shooting from the line and 34 rebounds. “I’m going to tell you something,” Russell said afterwards. “I was never more worried about a game more than this one. It was the seventh and final and away from home. It was a tough situation. But we haven’t won anything yet.”

Robert Cherry wrote:Hannum admitted he called the plays from the sidelines, so he must share much of the blame for Wilt not getting the ball in the second half. But Hannum isn’t the only culpable party: there are Wilt’s teammates—they shot horribly and didn’t get the ball to him. Some measure of responsibility also must be assigned to Wilt who, after all, was the most dominant offensive player in the history of basketball. Granted he was playing hurt, but that didn’t stop him from gathering [p. 199] 34 rebounds. A leader leads; a scorer wants the ball—particularly in crucial moments. Why didn’t Wilt shout to his mates, “Gimme the damn ball!” He could have said it in a timeout or while foul shots were being taken. Anyone who has ever played basketball knows there are ways to alert your teammates that they’re not getting the ball to you and that you want it. But Wilt didn’t speak up, and he said in other interviews, sometime after the game, that he should have been more aggressive. Why wasn’t he? Could it have been that Wilt wanted to show Hannum, and the world, that if the Sixers weren’t going to throw the ball to him, they weren’t going to beat Boston? It may sound illogical, but who said Wilt was always logical?

It remains inexplicable why Wilt, his coach, and his teammates didn’t make sure that he got the ball.

Instead of Wilt coming to the offensive rescue, Boston completed its stunning comeback. Certainly, Philadelphia’s sports fans, among the most knowledgeable and rabid, have endured their share of disappointment by the city’s professional baseball, football, hockey, and basketball teams. But the collapse in the 1968 Eastern Finals, in which the 76ers botched a three-to-one lead, with two of the final three games at home, ranks with the worst of them.

"I remember they were calling us old when I came in, and that was six years ago," Havlicek had said. "We were fighting that then." Havlicek has now played on more championship Celtic teams than Bill Sharman did, and remember, Sharman's retirement was going to be the first crack in the dynasty. Everybody said so. Now they're all gone but Russell. He has outlasted every player in the league who was there when he came in. Just consider the Celtics who played with him, won their championships and have gone: Cousy, Heinsohn, Frank Ramsey, K. C. Jones, Jim Loscutoff, Andy Phillip, Arnie Risen, Jack Nichols, Gene Conley, Gary Phillips, Carl Braun, Clyde Lovellette, Jack McCarthy, Willie Naulls and Auerbach, too, of course, and Buddy LeRoux, the trainer. The owner, Walter Brown, died, and the owner after him, Lou Pieri. The team was sold and still has gone on, so that now Howell and Embry have their championships with Russell, too.

Comment: It's been said that the strongest case for Russell was Philadelphia's choke job rather than anything he did. People don't see the 17 points and 31 rebounds in Game 6 outplaying Chamberlain; that his strategy was key to the comeback as he thought about how to win; no one mentions Russell not letting the team feel that it was hopeless, that they could come back from 1-3 down, but take it a game at a time—win the next game, then the next game, then the next game. And they did it—it'd never been done before. Imagine the confidence of the team after having done the unprecedented; no one mentions what Robert Cherry said: “Yes, they shot poorly, but Boston’s defense, in particular Russell’s, had something to do with it. Russell blocked 10 shots and intimidated the 76ers on God knows how many others. The poor shooting against Boston was no aberration,” or that the 76ers shot 40 percent against Boston the whole year as opposed to 50 percent against everyone else but their offense suddenly went south rather than Boston ratcheting up the D; no one mentions the three crucial plays made by Russell in the final minute of Game 7 (probably because no one knows about them): a big free throw he hit, a clutch block of Chet Walker who he expressly focused on containing, or grabbing a big rebound (“Russell was the best clutch rebounder this game has ever seen,” Chamberlain said of Russell); no one mentions playing a record 292 minutes in the Finals; the near quadruple-double in Game 3; the game-saving block on Baylor in Game 5—blocked to Don Nelson (always to a teammate instead of out of bounds), which forced the Lakers to foul and ended the game (with 22 points and 25 rebounds). No, Russell didn't do anything to be deserving. :noway:

My criteria is doing whatever your team needs to win, whatever it may be. No one else did that better.

Wilt played through injury and was certainly let down by his teammates; however, for this ballot, I am not sure that “excuses” Russell yet again being the superior full series player, nor does it erase Russell winning another series against a similarly excellent full-strength Lakers team — all while acting as his team’s coach. It might, because I do think Wilt was a fair bit better in the regular season, and I would not want to take Wilt solely because of some unfortunate variance right at the end. Initial instinct though, Russell is still the guy whom I want in the most important games. Russell, Hakeem, and Lebron are the only players to manage a 3-1 comeback with two games on the road. Does anyone believe Wilt had the mental fortitude to do that against a title-calibre team?

Hawkins’ placement varies based on how you weigh what he accomplished in an inferior league, but I assess him as a legitimate top five player this year, and at that point I would rather reward his total ABA domination than reward a postseason-less Oscar.

West is a little more debatable off the “accomplishment” of losing in six games in the Finals, but here I am struck by the absurdity of that “accomplishment” relative to Oscar, who won more games than West did and had yet another massively productive season… but missed the playoffs because 1) his team went 4-13 without him while the Lakers went 19-12 without West, and 2) he did not play in a conference where it took 29 wins to make the postseason and where the conference finals opponent would ever be as pitiful as a Warriors team missing both Barry (contract) and Thurmond (injury).
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by eminence » Wed Sep 4, 2024 6:06 pm

AEnigma wrote:Defensive Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Nate Thurmond


Wilt tops Russell for the first time in the regular season… but as ever, Russell creeps back ahead of him in the postseason. Understand those who will leave Thurmond off this ballot because of the missed postseason, but frankly I think he is so far beyond any other player that I cannot justify awarding a rotation of lesser names who also failed to achieve anything in the postseason.


Any thought on Daniels here?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by AEnigma » Wed Sep 4, 2024 7:34 pm

eminence wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Defensive Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Nate Thurmond


Wilt tops Russell for the first time in the regular season… but as ever, Russell creeps back ahead of him in the postseason. Understand those who will leave Thurmond off this ballot because of the missed postseason, but frankly I think he is so far beyond any other player that I cannot justify awarding a rotation of lesser names who also failed to achieve anything in the postseason.

Any thought on Daniels here?

Reasonable enough vote, and he clearly has a strong “relative to league” case — although for me, a vote for him would need to weigh on the relative to league aspect to an extent beyond what I care to do, and then the ABA’s most impressive postseason defence was the Buccaneers with Red Robbins and Larry Brown.

In any case, if I were to assess Mel as the definite #4 defender in basketball, it is not by the margin I myself would want to see in order to vote for him over Thurmond, who took a roster that performed like the league’s ~worst defence without him to one of the clear cut top three defences with him, such that they were still a top ~three overall defence even with him only playing 51 games. I do not see the same regular season finish if anyone aside from Wilt and Russell were in his place, and then no one else (save I suppose Red Robbins) meaningfully closed that gap with some noteworthy defensive performance in the postseason.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Sep 4, 2024 7:36 pm

Wilt's playoffs are ok but Russell is not his 62/65 form by this point either and his hold as his team's best player is loosening with Havlicek having fantastic playoffs. He is by far the least efficient of his team's real rotation players, of the top 7 Celtics guys 6th in playoff TS% is Jones at .483 and Russell has .458. While WS/48 with pre block players is obviously flawed and based on factors like team defense, he goes from being above .190 every year in playoffs from 60-66 to .090, .091, .082 from 67-69 which seems like it's at least signalling something. With Cunningham injured the Celtics supporting cast looks better to me as I'd take Havlicek and old Jones (decent series vs Sixers) over Greer and Walker and I prefer the cast after that with Howell, Siegfried, Nelson, Sanders vs Jones, Jackson, Green and Goukas. I still think Russell is great and we've gone over already how the team stopped being dominant the minute he retired, but after 12 years of playing like 44mpg with shortened but intense playoff minutes, it makes sense there was some atrophy, and the Celtics had a great ensemble around him. I will be voting Wilt #1 as someone who wasn't attached to Russell getting the ring in years like 64 or 66 either.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Sep 4, 2024 11:12 pm

So makes sense for me to jump in on this thread to talk about Connie Hawkins. Not intending to find time for mammoth posts right now, but I'll say a few things, and if folks have questions they can ask:

1. First thing to understand about Hawk's season is that it got off to a relatively slow start compared to what you might expect. This wasn't a situation where Hawk just came into an outclassed league and everyone deferred to him. Hawk gradually took over more control over the team, and that has to do with why his scoring goes up considerably over the second half of the year.

2. There's really never a time where I would consider Hawk's teams to be competently coached, and a big part of that was the tendency of a couple of his teammates to jack shots they should have been benched/cut for. Hawk was only 3rd in FGA on his team for the year, and I would suggest that those other two players (Williams & Vaughn) were actively hurting their team with their chucking tendencies.

3. I'd note also that while Hawk led the team in assists, those other two guys shooting so much wasn't about Hawk passing to them, but about them not ever looking to give the ball to other players.

4. I have to say that Hawk leading the league in scoring while being 3rd in FGA and 1st in APG is one of the most insane stats I've ever come across.

5. I'd be remiss if I just talked about Hawk's teammates as being bad. Washington was a strong rebounder and Heyman was a remarkable player whose issues were off-the-court (alcoholism, etc.).

In terms of the awards in question here, he's on my POY ballot and has a serious case to be #1 on my OPOY ballot.

On the other OPOY contenders: With West he had a remarkable season, but it was hurt by missed time. With Oscar, there's no doubt he remained amazing, but the Royals were largely spinning their wheels and Oscar didn't exactly help with the vibe.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by trelos6 » Thu Sep 5, 2024 1:24 am

ElGee wrote:Estimated Pace-Adjusted Numbers 1968

ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  Los Angeles   102.8
2.  Cincinnati   101.9
3.  Philadelphia  99.1
4.  St. Louis    98.8
5.  New York     98.6
6.  Detroit      97.0
LEAGUE AVG.      97.0
7.  Baltimore    96.2
8.  Boston       95.8
9.  Seattle      95.5
10. San Francisco 93.7
10. Chicago      93.7
12. San Diego    91.3


DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  Philadelphia  92.1
2.  Boston       92.4
3.  San Francisco 94.2
4.  St. Louis    96.4
5.  Baltimore    96.5
6.  New York     97.0
LEAGUE AVG.      97.0
7.  Chicago      97.1
8.  Los Angeles   98.1
9.  San Diego    98.3
10. Detroit      98.7
11. Seattle      100.6
12. Cincinnati   102.7


Code: Select all

        Pts/75  Reb/75 Ast/75 Rel TS%
======================================
Oscar    21.6   4.4   7.2   9.0%
West     21.4   4.7   5.0   9.2%
Baylor   20.2   9.5   3.6   0.7%
Bing     19.7   3.4   4.6   -0.8%
Reed     17.9   11.4   1.7   3.9%     
Greer    17.6   4.0   3.3   3.1%
Havlicek  17.3   5.6   3.9   -1.2%
Lucas    15.3   13.6   2.2   6.7%
Wilt     15.1   14.8   5.4   5.9%
Russell   9.8   14.6   3.6   -3.7%


1968 is indeed an interesting year, as others have mentioned already. Sixers have finally caught the Celtics, and now surpassed them in DRtg. Wilt and Russell will again feature in DPOY conversations, as well as Thurmond, who anchors the 3rd best D. I think Wilt went a little overboard with the whole "lead the league in assists" thing, and his scoring was down to 15 pp75 on +6. Paired with his tremendous defensive efforts in 1968, I have him as my POY. The hardest thing for me this year, is where to place Jerry West. Fantastic scoring volume and efficiency, and in the playoffs he was even better! Increased his volume, and his efficiency went up slightly. Yes, he did miss 30 games in the regular season, but he was healthy in the playoffs, and was a demon in the playoffs. The aim of the game is to win the title, and West was healthy when it mattered the most. Oscar again was a tremendous offensive engine, despite missing some time also, and does enough to win OPOY just ahead of West. Wilt with solid efficiency and his offense creation gets the HM for me. 3rd place, I'm giving to Connie Hawkins. I don't like the early ABA, I think it was a far weaker league, but Hawkins dominated, and I think even docking him 10-15%, I like his game enough over Elgin and Wilt. I'll give Elgin the HM in POY, for his volume scoring at just above league average efficiency.

OPOY
1.Oscar Robertson
2.Jerry West
3.Connie Hawkins

HM:WIlt Chamberlain

DPOY

1.Bill Russell
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Nate Thurmond

HM: John Havlicek

POY
1.Wilt Chamberlain
2.Jerry West
3.Bill Russell
4.Oscar Robertson
5.Connie Hawkins

HM: Elgin Baylor
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by penbeast0 » Thu Sep 5, 2024 1:42 am

Note that while Oscar gets a lot of credit for being an offensive engine, West leads LA to a better Ortg than Cincinnati. Lucas (efficiency, stretch 4) and Baylor (dynamic inside scorer) have excellent offensive years. Hawkins year in the ABA is amazing (as was his MVP year in the ABL at age 19) with defense and playmaking as well as scoring. Holding it down in value is the serious weakness of the ABA which is not close to the NBA yet. But you can see when Barry comes over that a year like Hawkins had (plus a half year the next year to match the strong half year Barry had) that you can't just walk in and put up Wilt numbers even as an All-NBA scorer.

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Hawkins
4. West
5. Oscar
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by Djoker » Thu Sep 5, 2024 3:27 am

I think Wilt built such a huge lead in the RS and Russell declined enough offensively that Wilt > Russell is probably the right choice. Still don't have my mind totally made up because Russell definitely got the better of him in Game 6 and Game 7 of the EDF as Boston came back to win the series. The Sixers suffered with major injuries (namely Billy C DNP) so the Sixers' loss is more excusable than it appears at first glance. West, Oscar, Havlicek, Greer, Thurmond, Reed, Bing will fight for the other spots for me although will probably exclude Nate for missing too many games.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by falcolombardi » Thu Sep 5, 2024 6:10 am

Out of all the "russel won the ring but wilt had the best stats and played celtics close in the playoffs" years coin toss years, this may be the one i am more confortable going with wilt

It was a regression year for phila but some of that can be explained by the team injuries and they still were the best regular season team and went 7 vs celtics despite the injuries, celtics that had one of their worst years which both hurts and helps wilt case vs russel

For offense i think i feel comfortable with oscar as the most consistent offensive force in the decade but also feel like rewarding west for lakers impressive offensive run

Defensively i kind of wonder if going wilt>russel is not out of the question? Sixers shined defensively but russel is prolly the safer bet and thurmond has a low key impressive profile of great defensive performances so i feel confident in him 3rd


Would likely go like this

DPOY
1- RUSSEL
2-WILT
3-THURMOND

OPOY
1- WEST
2- OSCAR
3- HAWKINS (feels correct to reward his impressive season)

POY
1- WILT
2-RUSSEL
3-WEST
4-OSCAR
5- HAWKINS
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by One_and_Done » Thu Sep 5, 2024 9:02 am

Zelmo led the Hawks to 56 wins this year. Feels like he should get a look in.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by OhayoKD » Thu Sep 5, 2024 8:18 pm

Vote

1. Bill Russell

Worst regular-season SRS of his career, poor scoring numbers, upset can be explained by personnel injury so on, so on. Sure, Wilt has a case.

That said it's odd to me that no one, including voters who frequently like to insist on the importance of considering context and situation commented on

1) Wilt playing under an excellent Phil-Jackson facsimile who yielded by far the best results out of him and who he quite notoriously failed to replicate this sort of sustained impact or overall team success without

2) Russell quite literally shouldering the burden of being his own head-coach

3) An older Russell taking everyone's lunch the following year

4) Wilt's stop seeing similar issues to what we'd seen before because getting the most out of Wilt is just a more complicated process than getting the most out of Russell

While they didn't lose Wilt for free, the Sixers were +4 the following year making me rather skeptical of the "well Wilt's team was better in the rs so wilt was clearly better" line. Especially from any voters who decided to vote for Wilt in seasons where it was Russell experiencing much greater regular-season success(even when the surrounding or the singals of the year itself suggested otherwise).

Frankly, I imagine if you substituted Russell for a high-volume scorer some Wilt voters here would swap their 1 and 2...regardless of how little basis that preference for this time period is built on.

Regardless of "erneh regular season m.o.v" rooted skceptism Russell beat two atg opponents(one healthy) with a cast with very little evidence of being good for most of his dynasty and repeated the trick the next year while also carrying a burden no player after has successfully carried since.

Frankly, the idea that Wilt had less "help" loses alot of credence unless you just ignore coaching for some reason.

2. Wilt Chaimberlain

His fluctuating performance in the biggest spots costs him #1 but I can't really see it getting him lower. Led the best regular-season team by a margin and is likely a champion if his teammates remained healthy and played the real champs the closest anyway.

3. Connie Hawkins

Assuming top ABA performance has Ballot-worthy value, Hawkins winning MVP on top of being the clear minutes, points, and rebounds(using this as an indicator for paint-protection) leader for the champions would seemingly point to Hawkins being that league's best player.

It's also worth noting that in debut NBA effort 2 years after, Hawkins would see the Suns improve by 6-points from 1969 though the scoring collapse is some cause for concern. In a down-year for Oscar and West, I'm willing to bank on the ABA's best player as the third best performer overall.

4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West

It pretty much comes down to this:
West is a little more debatable off the “accomplishment” of losing in six games in the Finals, but here I am struck by the absurdity of that “accomplishment” relative to Oscar, who won more games than West did and had yet another massively productive season… but missed the playoffs because 1) his team went 4-13 without him while the Lakers went 19-12 without West, and 2) he did not play in a conference where it took 29 wins to make the postseason and where the conference finals opponent would ever be as pitiful as a Warriors team missing both Barry (contract) and Thurmond (injury).

Oscar generally looks more valuable, fits the more archetype of more valuable sorts of offensive engines better, had the better signal this year, and missed less games.

As someone who is planning to vote plenty of non-champions first, rewarding a player who offered less simply for being more successful wouldn't really be defensible.

That said, this in particular is a baffling combination of ballot and reasoning:
trelos6 wrote:The hardest thing for me this year, is where to place Jerry West. Fantastic scoring volume and efficiency, and in the playoffs he was even better! Increased his volume, and his efficiency went up slightly. Yes, he did miss 30 games in the regular season, but he was healthy in the playoffs, and was a demon in the playoffs. The aim of the game is to win the title, and West was healthy when it mattered the most.


Jerry West did not win the title this year. The player you ranked Jerry West over did and the additional justifications added ("scoring volume and efficiency") have no explanatory value for this era or this year which is a fancy way of saying, does not matter.

Jerry west's performance was worse, his impact was worse, and he lost with better help to a player who was also a head-coach.

This is about as indefensible as a vote gets.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Sep 5, 2024 10:08 pm

Vote

1. Wilt Chamberlain - Easily the best regular season player, ok playoffs but Russell's playoffs stats aren't amazing either

2. Bill Russell - Don't see good enough choices to drop him lower than this. Played a big role beating Wilt obviously.

3. Connie Hawkins - I might have dropped him if he just did it on a mediocre team but that were ABA champion as well makes me comfortable rating him

4. Oscar Robertson - Another prime season though I'm always wary of the offensive year on last place defense type of teams where they don't have to spend much energy on that end.

5. Zelmo Beaty - Great season leading Hawks to 56 Ws and putting up career best type stats with better passing than previous seasons, has floor spacing and solid defensive impact.

Too many missed regular season games for West. Havlicek's playoff stats are a bit inflated by minutes.

Offensive

1. Oscar Robertson
2. Connie Hawkins
3. Wilt Chamberlain

Defensive

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Mel Daniels
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by IlikeSHAIguys » Fri Sep 6, 2024 1:09 am

1 - Bill Russell
2 - Connie Hawkins
3 - Oscar Robertson
4 - Wilt Chamberlain
5 -Zelmo Beaty

Maybe people are overthinking? Russell is coach and player and beats a couple teams he isn't supposed to with a team that misses the playoffs when he retires and we're not voting him 1? Feels kind of like saying Lebron was better than Dirk for 2011. Arent really thinking Russells team wasnt worse and its a pretty good point that it's not easy to also be coaching

Connie wins the MVP and the championship and it looks like he does really really well by those uh winning stats. ABA is weaker duh but being the best immediately is kinda amazing. Oscar puts really good numbers and also looks like a really massive carry job. Wilt kind of chokes with a really good team so I dont really feel pressured to vote him or top 2 when he isn't doing that in the playoffs or whatever.

West kind of has to go. Misses lots and lots of games and only makes playoffs because team is too good when he's chilling and trying to ger better.

Defensive Player of the Year
1 - Russell
2 - Wlilt
3 - Thurmond

Offensive Player of the Year
1 - Oscar
2 - Wilt
3 - West
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by One_and_Done » Fri Sep 6, 2024 7:01 am

Dr Positivity wrote:Vote

1. Wilt Chamberlain - Easily the best regular season player, ok playoffs but Russell's playoffs stats aren't amazing either

2. Bill Russell - Don't see good enough choices to drop him lower than this. Played a big role beating Wilt obviously.

3. Connie Hawkins - I might have dropped him if he just did it on a mediocre team but that were ABA champion as well makes me comfortable rating him

4. Oscar Robertson - Another prime season though I'm always wary of the offensive year on last place defense type of teams where they don't have to spend much energy on that end.

5. Zelmo Beaty - Great season leading Hawks to 56 Ws and putting up career best type stats with better passing than previous seasons, has floor spacing and solid defensive impact.

Too many missed regular season games for West. Havlicek's playoff stats are a bit inflated by minutes.

Offensive

1. Oscar Robertson
2. Connie Hawkins
3. Wilt Chamberlain

Defensive

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Mel Daniels

This is the same as my top 5.

1. Wilt
2. Russell

3. Hawkins
4. Oscar
5. Beaty

I feel like Wilt had finally figured out how to play by this point, which coincided with his athletic prime. Russell had a better team, but I'm not sure he was the better player anymore.

I debated alot of people for 3-5, but ultimately I'm going to stick with Zelmo at #5. He led the Hawks to the 2nd best record in the league.

Overall, I can't wait for the 70s to get here. I don't feel strongly about alot of these votes, but will have alot more to say once we start to get into better and better quality leagues.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Sep 6, 2024 9:20 am

I can see how Wilt vs Russell can be a debate this season (even though I do think Wilt handily takes it this time around) but putting either of them below Oscar, who straight up didn't even make the play-offs, is definitely a take and a half.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by eminence » Fri Sep 6, 2024 1:53 pm

Deciding on a 4/5 order for Baylor/Oscar (Hawkins 3).

Full faith in Oscar as the better player (West as well), but missed games and didn't actually lead the Royals anywhere. The path was easy but Baylor was still the one there for the Lakers (50 win pace without West). I think I'm leaning Oscar.

Any strong thoughts?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1967-68 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by Owly » Fri Sep 6, 2024 5:15 pm

eminence wrote:Deciding on a 4/5 order for Baylor/Oscar (Hawkins 3).

Full faith in Oscar as the better player (West as well), but missed games and didn't actually lead the Royals anywhere. The path was easy but Baylor was still the one there for the Lakers (50 win pace without West). I think I'm leaning Oscar.

Any strong thoughts?

Since you ask ...
Oscar easily.

He's probably still the most productive guard in the league. He's still got a big impact signal. His team don't make the playoffs but they're fine with him in around that era. If we were going into a quick and dirk version of why they suck without him I don't like any of the rotation teammates bar Hairston. Lucas has an awful WoWY around this time for someone of his status/production. Smith is (to the extent he's anything) a shooting specialist who doesn't shoot that much or do much of anything else. Dierking is a forward playing center against a bunch of players that are much better than him (if he were a bench forward, maybe this is a nice peak/short prime, but it isn't so it isn't). Hairston's the next guy though he was gone after 48 games. Rodgers can pass, but can't shoot at all, I don't think he can defend otoh. Love ... at this point in the roster has nice name recognition ... has a solid defensive rep ... will shoot rather than pass too much for a player who doesn't make shots.

Baylor has a nice WoWY but off a tiny sample (at least Ben's spreadsheet version). He has a fairly good playoffs.

I just think Robertson is in a different class as a player to Baylor at this time (still prime Oscar, versus revived but away from apex Baylor), I think in either location the team does better with Oscar than with Elgin. Baylor plays more, I just don't think it's nearly enough.

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