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Piggybacking off the KD/Malone thread:

Stockton became the full time starter in 87-88’ so I’m starting this hypothetical from there.

87-88’-92-93’ Stockton starting in the 10-11’ thru 15-16’ season for OKC.

Durant looks even better, the defense improves, all the role players like Adams look better (except maybe Robeson who just can't shoot), but the Thunder miss Westbrook's scoring and rebounding which Stockton can't approach. I'd say moderately better and might win a title.

Can we assume James Harden stays because OKC doesn't see Stockton as a 1B scorer? If so, they'd be significantly better. KD is the clear alpha, James Harden eventually develops into the ISO scorer on the Rockets which is more efficient that Westbrook. They lose Ibaka, but their offense would be much improved.

If it's just a straight 1 to 1 swap, then they'd be moderately better. KD would still be happy being the clear alpha and they'd be better defensively in the backcourt. Their role players would improve their scoring with Stockton running the point to make up for Westbrook's scoring.

Does Harden fully develop his on ball game next to Stockton? He didn't show his playmaking skills much next to Westbrook but he didn't play there long.

I'm assuming he would at a slower pace. I didn't think he could co-exist (basketball-wise) with CP3, but it was working. It's all conjecture, but Harden was too talented in retrospect to not develop into a playmaker.

I don't even like Westbrook, but this is still kind of insulting. Prime Westbrook was much better than Stockton.

One_and_Done wrote:I don't even like Westbrook, but this is still kind of insulting. Prime Westbrook was much better than Stockton.

At volume scoring and rebounding; not at playmaking for others, scoring efficiency, defense, or spreading the floor. It depends what you value.

Stockton is just so much of a worse player. If we're trying to do hypotheticals, a better one is OKC move Westbrook for PG3 or even Middleton and keep Harden. That team is winning multiple titles.

I'd say it's a lateral move all things considered.

penbeast0 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:I don't even like Westbrook, but this is still kind of insulting. Prime Westbrook was much better than Stockton.

At volume scoring and rebounding; not at playmaking for others, scoring efficiency, defense, or spreading the floor. It depends what you value.

I mean if i did the "count the defenders taken out" thing I'm pretty sure Westbrook would win kind of handily. Whether that's passing or gravity/ball-handling is another matter.

But from what I've seen of both, Westbrook creates alot more and at his best years(paticulalry in the playoffs) he's got pretty excellent turnover economy

As far as KD is concerned, Westbrook also is significantly better fit(in fact he's pretty much the perfect fit as far as one player goes offensively). Person who gets worse the more he dominates the ball, has relatively weak inside scoring/driving for the position, and benefits disprotionately from single coverage has alot more to benefit from the guard teams build walls to prevent from getting to the rim and is better the more they dominate the ball. Westbrook's biggest weakness is also a strength for durant.

Everything would improve except for PG attacking/scoring but id say it’s a net win. What it means in terms of titles? Maybe one 1-2 more finals appearances.

OhayoKD wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:I don't even like Westbrook, but this is still kind of insulting. Prime Westbrook was much better than Stockton.

At volume scoring and rebounding; not at playmaking for others, scoring efficiency, defense, or spreading the floor. It depends what you value.

I mean if i did the "count the defenders taken out" thing I'm pretty sure Westbrook would win kind of handily. Whether that's passing or gravity/ball-handling is another matter.

But from what I've seen of both, Westbrook creates alot more and at his best years(paticulalry in the playoffs) he's got pretty excellent turnover economy

Didn't Ben have Westbrook among the highest ever in terms of shot creation in some of his final OKC seasons?

tsherkin wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:
At volume scoring and rebounding; not at playmaking for others, scoring efficiency, defense, or spreading the floor. It depends what you value.

I mean if i did the "count the defenders taken out" thing I'm pretty sure Westbrook would win kind of handily. Whether that's passing or gravity/ball-handling is another matter.

But from what I've seen of both, Westbrook creates alot more and at his best years(paticulalry in the playoffs) he's got pretty excellent turnover economy

Didn't Ben have Westbrook among the highest ever in terms of shot creation in some of his final OKC seasons?

I don't have ben's patreon so I don't know what the current stuff is. IIRC Westbrook led the league in that stat in 2017. That stat seems to like players post-three point evolution alot.

The era-adjusted version(which has been argued as biased the other way) does have stockton pretty great too.

All those metrics are still limited largely by what's available in basketball reference(entirely pre-1997) and don't really measure any creation that occurs without passing besides spacing (indirectly), unrewarded playmaking, or how many defenders attackers are taking out beyond what type of shot the final one is.