https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2388436&p=113860138&hilit=66#p113860138
To offer something more tangible, I will be counting the following:
1. Defenders taken out (DTOs) -> this is when a player entirely or near-entirely renders a defender unable to affect an offensive play themselves(excepting a reset)
2. Additional Defenders Affected (ADAs) -> this is when a player helps render a defender unable to affect an offensive play
Will be looking for these on non-baskets and on rebounds and will be counting the two as separate things. Will also count plays where there was an opportunity to take-advantage of a player's off-ball creation but the opportunity was passed on. Will not be looking for on-ball creation though I encourage any interested party to look for the same things with the ball.
I will also be qualitatively judging “creations” as either “Great”, “Good”, “Decent’, or “Weak”.
I have chosen 1 game for each player and will look at the first 40-possessions of each.
I encourage any interested party to do their own tracking/vetting.
Lebron (tracking starts at 0:34, ends at 48:02)
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Possession 1: Boozer offensive foul ends the possession early.
Possession 2: Lebron receives the ball at the elbow and drives taking out 2 defenders and hindering an additional 2 before handing the ball to Ilgauskas. Duncan helps but Ilguaskas converts (This might go better with a legitimate lob threat). Very few players have the gravity to even attempt that, never mind the size and finishing skill to fake for the hand-off. Good creation.
Possession 3: Lebron creates a bit of space by bumping into Boozer’s defender but it doesn’t lead to anything and he misses a contested jumper.
Possession 4: Lebron watches from the elbow as Sasha hits a jumper.
Possession 5: Lebron circles to the opposite elbow and watches Hughes set up Gooden for a drive+layup.
Possession 6: First time Lebron brings the ball up. Draws 3 defenders and distracts a 4th but opts for an ill-advised shot and bricks instead of finding one of the two wide-open shooters.
Possession 7: Lebron bumps into Pavolich’s man but little comes of it. Pavolich still tips it in.
Possession 8: Lebron runs around off-ball but little comes of it. Gooden scores after upfaking a defender.
Possession 9: Lebron battles for position low-post before his man helps onto Ilgauskas who misses.
Possession 10: Lebron gets the ball with 10 seconds left on the shotclock, drives into 3 defenders and sees his shot blocked by Duncan who falls over. Lebron then takes a contested 3 with the shot running out and misses, but Ilguaskas gets the rebound in part thanks to Duncan being on the ground (1 defender affected[b])
[b]Possession 11: Lebron gets the ball and bricks a jumper. Poor shot selection again. He probably could have found the guy on the opposite corner(he will make more difficult passes later).
Possession 12: Lebron takes out 1 defender and affects one other (some credit goes to the screener) with a pass to. Nothing comes of it.
Possession 13: Lebron gets the ball and brings it up from the backcourt for the second time in transition. He drives to the basket and takes out 3 defenders with a pass while distracting the other two to get the ball to Hughes. Hughes is covered quickly and nothing comes of it. There’s an argument for it being great and the lack of end-product simply being a matter of team-construction, but the Spurs also probably aren’t giving Lebron that much attention if they were worried about a one-footed Hughes’ scoring threat. Good.
Possession 14: Lebron brings up the ball again before executing a give and go. Lebron draws a double and Ginobli kicks it away. Big Z receives the inbound and nearly loses the ball but Lebron is able to (with Big Z’s assistance) tip it to Gibson who exploits the opening to convert a semi-open jumper. (Lebron affects 1 defender here.)
Possession 15: Lebron takes out 3 defenders (and delays a 4th) with a great skip pass to marshall who dumps it to varejao who...turns it over. Most players aren’t drawing 3 defenders and of those, very few are making that read. Don’t see any reason to penalize Lebron for his teammate’s shortcomings. Great.
Possession 16: Lebron receives the ball and drives in the half-court, taking out 2 defenders and hindering an additional 2 with a spin-move, shot-fake, and dump-off. Verjoa gets doubled and can't convert. Probably can count your fingers the number of players historically pulling something like that off. Great.
Possession 17: Lebron receives ball in key, takes out 4 defenders with an excellent cross-court read, marshall bricks semi-contested 3. Might have been wide-open if he doesn’t throw it to the corner but again, very few players ever are pulling that with any sort of regularity. Great.
Possession 18: Lebron grabs an uncontested rebound and drives in transition drawing 4 defenders and his first set of free-throws.
Possession 19: Lebron brings up the ball for 4th time, loses ball driving into 4 defenders, Marshall wins it back and scores with 3 defenders facing him. (Commentator says Lebron was fouled but I don’t know). The basket is waived off due to an offensive foul.
Possession 20: Lebron brings up the ball again and commits an offensive foul.
Possession 21: Lebron brings up the ball again executing a give-and-go with Gibson, inches closer to the hoop with his back to the basket and then throws a high skip-pass when the double comes, taking out 2 defenders. The resulting shot is contested(Big Z converts the rebound), in part because of how high Lebron’s pass was(shooter had to go up in the air a second time), so I’m only grading this as Decent.
Possession 22: Following another give and go with Gibson, Lebron draws 3 defenders; taking out 2 and hindering 1 with a short-range bullet. Verejoa cannot convert over three defenders. Play is very hard to replicate (most great playmakers simply lack the physical build for it) but not much is generated. Decent.
Possession 23: Lebron comes down to get the ball at the key and draws a foul. Lebron receives the ball near the baseline, spins his way to the low-post and misses a well contested jumper.
Possession 24: Lebron brings the ball up in transition, executes a give and go, and then goes for a homerun read. Deflects off the rim. Turnover.
Possession 25: Lebron bricks a contested pull-up.
Possession 26: Lebron takes out 2 defenders with a touch pass while distracting 2 others with his eyes to set-up Big Z for a would-be layup. Duncan is forced to foul. Good.
(Lebron is subbed out at 26:17, comes back at 32:30)
Possession 27: Lebron runs by the baseline helping create a small collision between two Spurs defender. Little comes of it. Pavolitch misses a contested layup and Ilgauskas gets the board only to lose the ball.
Possession 28: Lebron gets the ball in the corner and drives to the basket. Comes up on 3 defenders and Duncan knocks the ball away. Lebron takes out 2 defenders with a pass to Ilgauskas who dumps it to Big Z who wins free-throw. With only 7 seconds remaining when Ilgauskas receives the ball, not inclined to give Lebron too much credit. Weak.
Possession 29: Lebron brings the ball and drives into a wall of 4 defenders. Shot is short.
Possession 30: Ilgauskas does a give and go with Lebron for better post-position than finds Hughes wide open. Hughes takes too long to shoot and misses a contested jumper.
Possession 31: Lebron watches as Pavolich drives and scores in transition.
Possession 32: Lebron gets the ball near the free-throw line, drives into 3 defenders, wins free throws.
Possession 33: Lebron draws 2 defenders and swings it to Gibson who swings it to Marshall who hits a semi-contested 3. Weak.
Possession 34: Lebron gets the ball at the elbow and swings it to Marshall whose pass is swatted out of bounds. Gibson receives the inbound pass and weaves his way through the Spurs defense for an under-the-basket layup.
Possession 35: Lebron receives the ball at the elbow and takes out his guy while hindering another to find a rolling Boozer. Boozer converts the jumper.
Possession 36: Lebron bricks an open 3.
Possession 37: Lebron brings the ball up and dribbles it off his own foot when pressured by Duncan.
Possession 38: Lebron brings the ball up and makes a basic read to Boozer who spins and converts a jumper.
Possession 39: Lebron takes out 2 defenders with a good read to Hughes creating an opening for a shot. Hughes passes up the shot skipping it to Pavolich who misses a contested jumper. Not the obvious read and required a bit of eye-manipulation so I’ll give Lebron a decent.
Possession 40: Lebron gets the ball outside the key. Moves backwards drawing 2 san-antonio defenders and then fires to find Boozer wide open. Instead of taking the shot, Boozer penetrates and finds Ilgauskas with a wrap-around bounce pass. Ilgauskas loses the ball. An accurate ball along with some solid manipulation is enough for me to give Lebron a decent.
Final Tally: Lebron
Over the 40 tracked possessions, I gave Lebron 30 DTOs and an additional 14 ADAs. I also gave Lebron 12 creations: 3 great, 3 good, 4 decent, and 2 weak. Even at 22, asked to acquiesce ball-handling duties to a one-legged Hughes, Lebron showcases incredible defensive pull basically drawing triples whenever he drives. Combining that with all-time passing ability creates a seemingly underrated creative force (overshadowed by hyper-fixation on Lebron’s weaker scoring performance, and undersold by his assists-per-game). Lebron could have created more(and scored more efficiently) with better-shot selection, especially at the start.
Jordan (Tracking Starts at 2:19, ends at 38:42)
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Possession 1: Jordan watches as his teammates pass the ball around the Laker’s defense before finding him open at the key. Bricks the jumper.
Possession 2: Jordan watches from the corner as his teammate(can’t make out who) bricks a middy.
Possession 3: Pippen brings the ball up in transition and fires it past 3 defenders to set-up a Paxson Jumper. Swish.
Possession 4: Jordan gets the ball at the elbow. Simple overhead pass to cartwright who can’t convert over multiple defenders.
Possession 5: Jordan brings the ball up in transition and makes a basic read to take out 2 defenders and find Paxson open. Paxson converts. Decent.
Possession 6: Jordan gets the ball at the elbow, throws it to grant, bumps into Pippen’s defender(little comes off it), and relocates to receive the ball at the three-point line. Is tripped while doing a give-and-go with Cartwright, winning a foul. Jordan draws 2 defenders and distracts a 3rd with a shot-fake at the free-throw line but his pass is too strong and Cartwright can’t keep hold of it. The ball trickles to Pippen who drives and misses.
Possession 7: Paxson drives to the basket and wins free-throws
Possession 8: Jordan bumps into someone else’s defender, creating enough space for him to grab an offensive board(the miss likely was a pass intended for MJ). Jordan then takes out 2 defenders and delays a third with a kick-out to Paxson who swings it to Pippen. Pippen bricks the jumper. Decent.
Possession 9: Livingston ends the possession early with a back-court violation.
Possession 10: Jordan intercepts a pass and is off to the races for an easy dunk.
Possession 11: Jordan watches, first from the elbow, and then from the paint, as Cartwright posts up, spins, and scores over 2 defenders.
Possession 12: Jordan receives the ball at the free-throw line on a fast-break. Help is late and Jordan lays it up and in.
Possession 13: Magic hands the ball off to Cartwright trying to draw a foul vs Jordan. Cartwright finds Pippen wide open(Jordan is open too) with an easy outlet pass. Pippen dunks it.
Possession 14: Jordan brings the ball up in transition and takes out 2 defenders with a behind-back pass to Pippen who wins free-throws driving to the basket. Good[b].
[b]Possession 15: Jordan draws and takes out 2 defenders to find Hodges with acres of space. Simple read, but that’s largely due to Jordan’s scoring threat. Decent.
Possession 16: Jordan receives the ball at the post drawing 2 defenders and distracting a 3rd. Unfortunately he fumbles the hand-off.
Possession 17: Jordan receives the ball mid-post and draws a double leaving Pippen wide open at the opposite elbow. Unfortunately Jordan throws it way short and the ball is tipped. Pippen gets a hand to the ball but it rolls out for a Lakers possession.
Possession 18: Jordan receives the ball at the elbow, making 1 defender cheat towards him, and uses the opening to swing it to Hodges who swings it to Pippen who drives into traffic and wins a foul. (1 DTO as well)
Possession 19: Jordan watches from the paint as Scott Williams is called for a travel.
Possession 20: Jordan receives the ball at the key and swings it to Cartwright before setting a screen that delays one defender giving Cartwright an opening to find Pippen who throws the ball over 3 defenders to find Hodges wide open. Hodges converts the open 3.
Possession 21: Jordan watches from the corner as Pippen drives into traffic to win more free-throws.
Possession 22: Jordan strips Divac and dunks unchallenged.
Possession 23: Pippen gets a steal and fires an outlet pass to Hodges who finds Jordan near the paint. Jordan takes out 2 defenders and bypasses another(with assistance from Grant bowling his man over) to find Grant who is swiftly stripped off the ball. Better vision or size might have let Jordan find Grant earlier for a likely conversion but it’s still a solid combination of gravity and passing. Good.
Possession 24: Pippen spins and bricks a jumper. Magic tips out the rebound. Jordan receives the inbound at the elbow, drives to the free-throw line, and takes out 1 defender with an upfake before hindering an additional two with a nice read to grant. The latter two defenders recover and Grant commits an offensive foul. Decent.
Possession 25: Pippen leads the break driving to the paint and taking out 2 defenders to find Armstrong wide open. Armstrong converts.
Possession 26: Jordan gets the ball at the elbow and drives to the basket sliding between his man and an off-balance Magic to lay it in.
Possession 27; Jordan gets the ball at the elbow (again) and drives to the basket using the baseline (again) and is fouled for free-throws.
Possession 28: Jordan gets the ball near the corner, backs his man into the paint, draws a late double, and bricks. Missed an opportunity to find Grant for a layup.
Possession 29: Pippen drives and commits an offensive foul.
Possession 30: Jordan exploits defensive miscommunication and takes out 3 defenders (“take out” may be generous for two of them) with a simple pass to Grant who goes for the layup and draws a foul. More about the Lakers defense than Jordan but whatever. Great.
Possession 31: Jordan brings up the ball and delays Magic with a bounce-pass. Jordan gets the ball back and travels.
(Pippen immediately turns over the ball at 30:53 ending a Bulls possession in the back-court but out of fairness to MJ I’m not counting that as a possession)
Possession 32: Jordan gets the ball at the top of the key and drives inside before trying to shoot over 2 defenders. Misses. Maybe a case of tunnel vision as Paxson was wide-open.
Possession 33: Pippen leads a fastbreak and dunks.
Possession 34: Jordan gets the ball low post. Draws a double and throws an overhead pass to the opposite elbow taking out 2 defenders and delaying 2 more. Pippen bricks the semi-contested 3. A more powerful pass might have found him more open. Good.
Possession 35: Jordan brings the ball up and backs his way into the paint before making a basic read out of a double to find Pippen who fires it to Paxson. Paxson throws it back to Pippen who penetrates, nearly slips, misses a jumper, and gets his own rebound. Pippen then lobs it to Jordan who drives into traffic and bricks. A bigger/better playmaker probably could have found Paxson or Pippen open. Not much of an opening is generated by Jordan’s pass so I’ll grade this as weak creation.
Possession 36: Jordan watches from the corner as Scottie dunks.
Possession 37: Jordan watches from the elbow(and then the top of the key) as Cartwright’s jumper rolls in.
Possession 38: Jordan steals the ball and then hands it to Hopson. Hopson finds Scottie with an outlet and Scottie gets an easy layup.
Possession 39: Paxson brings the ball up, executes a give and go with Cartwright, and swishes an open jumper.
Possession 40: Pippen turns it over with a pass from the back-court ending the possession early.
Final Tally: Jordan
In 40 Possessions I gave MJ 20 DTOs and 11 ADAs. I also credited Jordan with 9 creations: 1 great, 3 good, 4 decent creations, and 1 weak. Part of me wonders if that “great” even qualifies as “good” but generally 3 defenders taken out has been my bar for great and I’ve decided to mostly leave the “contextual” stuff for the analysis section rather than the raw tracking. Jordan showcased pretty good shot-selection and a willingness to pass, but it seems a combination of relative deficits in terms of build and vision prevented Jordan from seeing and/or hitting on some of the more ambitious reads/windows.
Analysis
Just going by what was counted Lebron has a significant advantage creating 10 more DTOs (66% more) and affecting 14 more defenders overall (40% more). I’m not sure contextual considerations really help Jordan either. For one, Jordan faced a much weaker defense, something he capitalized on several times (possession 5, possession 30). For another, Jordan got similar time on-ball to Lebron (something we know doesn’t hold when Lebron is optimised) while Lebron saw much of his reps taken over by a one-legged Hughes. I would also say in hindsight my gradings for Jordan were more generous. The “great” I awarded him as well as the 3 DTO’s credited that possession was a borderline evaluation with pity as a bit of a tiebreaker. I see a stronger argument for more of the “decents” and “goods” I gave Lebron being moved higher(his teammates seem to do a worse job gaining seperation than Jordan’s do) than the corresponding Jordan plays and all 3 of the plays i gave Lebron “great” for were harder to replicate.
Jordan does seem to have better shot selection at this stage of his career but that advantage is off-set by drawing less defenders with the ball (to what degree one attributes that to illegal defense, teammates, the triangle, and lebron being much bigger and stronger is an open question), a lower hit-rate when he goes for home-runs, and worse vision. Size looks like a significant advantage for Lebron who repeatedly made plays like Jordan’s underhit cross-court read look easy.
All said, Lebron just looks on a different level as a playmaker, even this early on.
I actually wanted to look at Lebron’s defensive performance more closely as well (Parker looks to have done the polar opposite of “cooking” him from a more casual watch), but I’ll save that for another time.