Retro Player of the Year 1970-71 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[AEnigma]

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1970-71.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 11:00am EST on Tuesday, September 17th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

________________________________________
Layaway Voters
* B-Mitch 30
* Bad Gatorade
* McBubbles

[penbeast0]

I will be dismayed if Kareem isn't the unanimous POY this year. This is his year. He had the best stats, his team is far and away the best RS record in the league and in the postseason the Bucks get a sweep in the finals. Oscar will get some top 5 votes as well due to team dominance, Bob Dandridge built on his rookie year to become one of the better wings in the league too though not top 5. Bucks had the best Ortg AND the best Drtg in the league.

Other teams worth mentioning included the Knicks, with the league's second best record (14 games back!), Bulls, Lakers, Suns, Sixers, Pistons, Celtics, Bullets (who went to the NBA finals with a barely .500 team) . . . it was a deep year. And that doesn't even include Elvin Hayes who was 2nd in the league in total points and rebounds (3rd in per game numbers in both stats) while leading the league in Defensive Win Shares or league assist leader Norm Van Lier who is even better known for his defense as well.

I will be considering Wilt, Hayes, Havlicek, West, Frazier, and Oscar for the other 4 spots.

In the ABA, the best players were MVP Mel Daniels and Win Shares leader Zelmo Beaty who led their team to the best record and the title respectively (beating Daniels' Pacers in 7). With the ABA still being significantly weaker than the NBA, I don't think anyone else is in my POY consideration.

Tentative POY List
1. Kareem
2. Frazier
3. Oscar
4. West
5. Beaty

[One_and_Done]

Kareem is #1 basically every year until he gets hurt and demands a trade in 75. Probably Frazier gets the #2 spot.

[Dr Positivity]

Anyone who doesn't vote Kareem #1 gets put in the penalty box for a thread

[trelos6]

Estimated Pace-Adjusted Statistics

Code: Select all

           Pts 75  Reb/75  Ast/75  Rel TS%
Kareem     25.0    12.6    2.6     10.6%
Bing       23.1    3.8     4.3     4.0%
West       20.6    3.3     7.3     7.1%
Havlicek   18.9    5.9     4.9     1.3%
Billy C    18.7    9.5     4.0     1.9%
Reed       17.0    11.2    1.6     1.0%
Frazier    16.0    5.0     4.9     5.6%
Oscar      15.6    4.6     6.6     6.3%
Thurmond   15.4    10.6    2.2     0.1%
Wilt       14.8    13.0    3.0     5.8%


Kareem is obviously the #1 overall player this season, but there are a few strong candidates for the other positions. West was terrific in the regular season, but his injury hurts him quite a lot. If a player misses 20-30 games but is healthy and has a big post season, they are contributing to their teams chances to win a title. That said, West again was terrific. Efficient scoring, career high (to that point) in assists. So he will feature in both OPOY and POY, but not sure where just yet.

Other players to consider are Wilt and Oscar. Oscar offensively, Wilt defensively, both had bounce back seasons from the year prior. Walt Frazier was again fantastic, almost a budget West, except he was healthy in the playoffs, and was also very good in the playoffs. He's a strong candidate for #2. Havlicek and Barry both had pretty good years also, as candidates for the top 5.

The Bucks were the best offense in the league, in both post season and regular season, and this was obviously on the back of Kareem and Oscar (though Bobby D was no slouch). For this, I think both Oscar and Kareem need to be rewarded in OPOY. West is in consideration also, as is Frazier.

OPOY
1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
2. Jerry West
3. Oscar Robertson

HM: Walt Frazier

DPOY has a few candidates that are really hard to parse. Bucks were the best D, anchored by Kareem, but Oscar and Dandridge were pretty solid defenders to boot. Knicks and Celtics were also solid defensive teams, led by Frazier, Reed, DeBusschere, and Havlicek, Cowens respectively. Hayes and Unseld were fine defensive players in 1971, as well as a few old timers, Wilt and Nate. Mel Daniels from the ABA get's a quick shout out. Kareem wasn't the best player defensively, but he did anchor the best team by a country mile, and thus he ends up #1 DPOY.

DPOY
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Dave DeBusschere
3. Wilt Chamberlain

HM: John Havlicek

POY, Kareem is the no brainer at #1. Walt Frazier is my #2. Yes, West was better in the regular season, but Walt's playoffs were great and West was injured. At 3, I'll go with Wilt just over Oscar, but both were pretty good 2 way superstars. Havlicek vs West is a tough one, because they both missed the playoffs, though one was for injury, so I'll lean West for 5.

POY
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Walt Frazier
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West

HM: John Havlicek

[Djoker]

The 1971 Bucks are on a very short list of greatest teams of all time. In the RS, highest SRS ever with +7.1 rORtg and -3.6 DRtg and in the PS, +4.5 rORtg and -9.5 rDRtg. Best offense and best defense which is pretty damn insane.

As for Kareem, he led the charge on both ends of the court but let's look at his offensive numbers.

RS: 31.7/16.0/3.3 on 60.6 %TS (+10.6 rTS)

Insane regular season quite simply put. Along with 1971-72 maybe the two greatest RS campaigns ever considering they were also authored on historic teams.

WCSF vs. Warriors: 27.8/15.6/0.6 on 52.8 %TS (+5.4 rTS)

Kareem had the most dominant series anyone ever had against prime Nate and it's not even close. Nate averaged 17.6/10.2/3.0 on 41.6 %TS (-5.5 rTS). Bucks win by 11, win by 14, win by 12, lose by 2, win by 50!

WCF vs. Lakers: 25.0/17.2/4.2 on 51.0 %TS (+2.5 rTS)

With West (and Baylor) out injured, the Bucks completely dominated the outgunned Lakers. However, Wilt kind of held his own against Kareem with averages of 22.0/18.8/2.0 on 48.9 %TS (+1.8 rTS). Wilt will probably make my ballot for an admirable performance. Bucks win by 21, win by 18, lose by 11, win by 23, win by 18!

Finals vs. Bullets: 27.0/18.5/2.8 on 63.4 %TS (+13.9 rTS)

The undersized Unseld just wasn't equipped to handle Kareem. He was strong but Kareem destroyed him. Second half of Game 4 is available on YouTube (I think only footage from the entire PS run) and the Bucks ran the Bullets out of the building in Baltimore. Unseld averaged 15.0/19.0/5.3 on 42.3 %TS (-4.8 rTS). Bucks win by 10, win by 19, win by 8, win by 12.

Kareem is the obvious #1. His PS numbers don't actually jump out of the page so his 1970-71 campaign is probably a bit underrated. Of course it's fairly obvious why the scoring isn't THAT insane when you realize he faced Thurmond, Wilt and Unseld in the three series and that his team completely dominated every single series so there was hardly any need to ride Kareem hard. They went 12-2 in the playoffs with eleven of those wins by double digits. And their two losses happened up 3-0 and 2-0 in those respective series.

Oscar is definitely making my ballot as well. He had a profound impact on the Bucks as the #2 guy and his offensive impact was definitely nearing that of Kareem. His injuries in subsequent years cut the Bucks' dynasty short and it would have been a dynasty.

The others in the top 5 are likely Wilt, Unseld and Frazier. Considering Havlicek who was arguably at his peak.

[One_and_Done]

How does someone not have younger Oscar on their ballot last round, then have older Oscar in their top 5 this time? Oscar didn't get better, all that happened was he got to ride Kareem's coat tails.

I'd have Zelmo way ahead of Oscar, among others.

[Dutchball97]

How does someone not have younger Oscar on their ballot last round, then have older Oscar in their top 5 this time? Oscar didn't get better, all that happened was he got to ride Kareem's coat tails.

I'd have Zelmo way ahead of Oscar, among others.

Because this award isn't about who is the best player in a vacuum but who had the best season. Oscar's regular season here is comparable to the last couple of seasons but now he not only makes the play-offs again but also performs really well there. 1971 is by all means a better season for Oscar than 68, 69 and 70.

I'm not sure if or where I'll have him on my ballot but ignoring the play-offs entirely seems a bit obtuse.

[trelos6]

How does someone not have younger Oscar on their ballot last round, then have older Oscar in their top 5 this time? Oscar didn't get better, all that happened was he got to ride Kareem's coat tails.

I'd have Zelmo way ahead of Oscar, among others.

Because this award isn't about who is the best player in a vacuum but who had the best season. Oscar's regular season here is comparable to the last couple of seasons but now he not only makes the play-offs again but also performs really well there. 1971 is by all means a better season for Oscar than 68, 69 and 70.

I'm not sure if or where I'll have him on my ballot but ignoring the play-offs entirely seems a bit obtuse.

Just to add to this, last season, Oscar was a floor raiser. The lone gunman on a terrible team.

This season, he is arguably one of the greatest second fiddles in NBA history. His ability to play off Kareem, initiate offense, defend at a high level, elevated the Bucks. He is now a ceiling raiser.

Context matters. Winning matters.

[One_and_Done]

I guess Oscar was just much better at playing with Kareem. Why didn't other top players try doing that this year.

[OhayoKD]

How does someone not have younger Oscar on their ballot last round, then have older Oscar in their top 5 this time? Oscar didn't get better, all that happened was he got to ride Kareem's coat tails.

I'd have Zelmo way ahead of Oscar, among others.

Because this award isn't about who is the best player in a vacuum but who had the best season. Oscar's regular season here is comparable to the last couple of seasons but now he not only makes the play-offs again but also performs really well there. 1971 is by all means a better season for Oscar than 68, 69 and 70.

I'm not sure if or where I'll have him on my ballot but ignoring the play-offs entirely seems a bit obtuse.

Just to add to this, last season, Oscar was a floor raiser. The lone gunman on a terrible team.

This season, he is arguably one of the greatest second fiddles in NBA history. His ability to play off Kareem, initiate offense, defend at a high level, elevated the Bucks. He is now a ceiling raiser.

Oscar scoring 6 less points without an upswing in effeciency turned him from a floor-raiser to a cieling raiser...what?

Context matters. Winning matters.

Ceiling raiser is not measured by "how good was the team I was on!" and players not being on good teams does not magically prove they were "floor-raisers, not cieling raisiers". The better cieling raisier is the player who provides more value to a better team, not who just happens to be on a better one. And...shocking I know....a player who is a better "floor-raiser", is more likely to be a better ceiling raisier.

Unless you are arguing Oscar became a different player(and in this case that argument would probably have to be built on a massive defensive or playmaking spike), there is no reason to think Oscar, scoring 6 less points on the same efficiency and posting dramatically worse surrounding signals than the late 60's iteration has suddenly transformed to a "cieling raiser" because the evidence for him being worse is inconvenient for your conclusion.

Winning matters? Sure. Rephrasing "erneh rings" as "cieling raisier" so you can pretend you're not just using team-success as an argument inofitself? No.

Baffling how frequently people will throw out these terms without ever making a serious effort to define and then back up the label. If you do not have the knowledge to pull off a "nuanced" evaluation, it's better to keep it simple than to fake "nuance".

[OhayoKD]

I guess Oscar was just much better at playing with Kareem. Why didn't other top players try doing that this year.

Those players were just floor-raisers I'm afraid.

[penbeast0]

To be fair, when you see a player's team doing better than you would have expected for their talent, you should indeed reevaluate the player. Now, if it's all Kareem improvement then there's no need to reevaluate Oscar despite the truly GOAT caliber season. But I know I had to reevaluate Kobe significantly despite his statistics not changing significantly when he was able to win titles with Pau/Bynum/Odom as his secondary stars. He may not have changed but my perception of him did.

[Dr Positivity]

How does someone not have younger Oscar on their ballot last round, then have older Oscar in their top 5 this time? Oscar didn't get better, all that happened was he got to ride Kareem's coat tails.

I'd have Zelmo way ahead of Oscar, among others.

He might move from 6th to 5th for me based on competition.

[Djoker]

From the newspaper articles, Oscar seems to be more determined and impactful on the defensive end in 1970-71 compared to his Cincinnati days. So indeed, he seems to be doing more things that qualify as ceiling raising. Just because Oscar rode Kareem's coattails doesn't mean his own impact isn't top 5 player worthy.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - No explanation needed.

2. Walt Frazier - He is in his prime and his playoffs look fine, the Knicks not making playoffs is probably because of Reed injury.

3. John Havlicek - While inflated a bit by minutes he has a huge season statistically 29/9/8 and wins 44 games despite the conference rules meaning he doesn't make the playoffs, even if he wasn't spending as much energy on D as 60s I'm assuming he was still good.

4. Zelmo Beaty - I will give credit to an ABA championship run here and his late 60s NBA form would've been good enough to contend for this ballot.

5. Wes Unseld - This is close but I decided to go with the guy who's his team's best player, and makes Finals without Johnson and his defense on Reed in ECF looks amazing, the latter's stats against Atlanta was like his regular season so I'm not sure you can just blame it on him already being injured.

Yes I'm leaving off Wilt, if Goodrich was worse in 1st round and they lost to Bulls I don't think this season would be considered anything remarkable, he is still in the in between range like 69 as not as dominant offensively as 60s but not in his Russell lite role of 72 on. Overall a pretty quality list of players not top 5 with him, Reed, Oscar, Thurmond, West, Hayes.

Offensive player of the year

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Walt Frazier

Defensive player of the year

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Dave DeBusschere
3. Nate Thurmond

[Narigo]

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar- Arguably his best season and a contender for the greatest season ever.

2. Walt Frazier- Clear number 2 when factoring on how he plays on both sides of the ball

3. Oscar Robertson- was more committed to the defensive end while still having amazing offensive impact

4. Jerry West- Did have a season ending injury at the end of the season and miss the playoffs. West had a better RS than Hondo and Bing where they both also missed the PS too

5.Dave Bing- Close call between him, Hondo, and Wilt. Went with Bing because he led his team to better record than the Celtics while having worst support. Plus Wilt had West, and the Lakers only have 3 more wins than the Pistons

[One_and_Done]

To be fair, when you see a player's team doing better than you would have expected for their talent, you should indeed reevaluate the player. Now, if it's all Kareem improvement then there's no need to reevaluate Oscar despite the truly GOAT caliber season. But I know I had to reevaluate Kobe significantly despite his statistics not changing significantly when he was able to win titles with Pau/Bynum/Odom as his secondary stars. He may not have changed but my perception of him did.

I think that was a case of you needing to re-evaluate Kobe's team mates.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

To be fair, when you see a player's team doing better than you would have expected for their talent, you should indeed reevaluate the player. Now, if it's all Kareem improvement then there's no need to reevaluate Oscar despite the truly GOAT caliber season. But I know I had to reevaluate Kobe significantly despite his statistics not changing significantly when he was able to win titles with Pau/Bynum/Odom as his secondary stars. He may not have changed but my perception of him did.

I think the beef is saying a player changed just because you looked at him different when his team was better. If 16/8 Oscar could win with Kareem why couldn't 23/8 Oscar?

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Kareem

This ones easy.

2- Wes Unseld

This ones not so easy. Reed barely played. I was thinking maybe Wilt but he also missed almost all the games. Jerry West also gets hurt and Roberson might be kind of washed. Gonna just go with the guy who made the finals I guess. Beating the Knicks is pretty impressive.

3 - Mel Daniels. I honestly sort of forgot the ABA before the guy above me brought up Zeemo and I feel like the ABA should get a rep even if its a weak league. Mel scored lots and rebounded lots and went 7 against the team to beat. Maybe hes the best player?

4 - Walt Frazier - Knicks still got deep and won 50 games. The other guy missed alot of games so I guess Walt did something right.

5 - Walker. People thought highly of his defense and his stats are as good as the other guys on another 50 win team.

Honorable Mention? -Bob Love I don't know anything about Bob Love but he had the best stats on another 50-win team so I'll just pick him.