RealGM

i am very confused about Jerry West as a player.

Explosive guard scoring that could take over games at wiill with the best of scorers in NBA history at any position. I have seen some people rank him as the 3rd greatest SG ever after MJ and Kobe,. Some rank Wade ahead of him

BUT

I've also seen people on RealGM in the past that say he was more a PG than a SG and have compared him to Magic, Curry, Oscar etc.

What is the general consensus on West.....should he be remembered as more a PG or SG?

He was a scoring guard who was his team main playmaker. He usually played next to a typical SG like Barnett or Goodrich, though not always.

I have him as someone who started at SG and became full-time PG during his prime. It's reasonable to put him at both positions, it's fuzzy anyway.

He'd make a heck of a 6th man today, he doesn't need to be pigeon-holed to one guard spot or another.

Jordan would make a heck of a 6th man today too if his ego could handle it. So would any incredibly great player.

West started as a combo guard but was used primarily, though not exclusively, at PG throughout his career. He was always an explosive scorer and very good defender, he added playmaking as his career progressed until he was leading the NBA in assists in the 70s.

Thus, like Magic, who started as a 2 guard next to Norm Nixon, played SG and SF almost exclusively defensively, and had the size to even swing to PF on occasion, we should call him a PG by conventional definitions because that's where he played the majority of his career. Probably top 3 PG of all time with Magic and Oscar (who like Magic was also a forward in college and played wing defensively in the pros).

penbeast0 wrote:Jordan would make a heck of a 6th man today too if his ego could handle it. So would any incredibly great player.

West started as a combo guard but was used primarily, though not exclusively, at PG throughout his career. He was always an explosive scorer and very good defender, he added playmaking as his career progressed until he was leading the NBA in assists in the 70s.

Thus, like Magic, who started as a 2 guard next to Norm Nixon, played SG and SF almost exclusively defensively, and had the size to even swing to PF on occasion, we should call him a PG by conventional definitions because that's where he played the majority of his career. Probably top 3 PG of all time with Magic and Oscar (who like Magic was also a forward in college and played wing defensively in the pros).

That is a good take on West. I think overall though, he was better than Magic and maybe Robertson. I used to think Magic was better but West scored considerably better, playmaking difference is probably less than that of scoring, and was a better defender.

I think he is the best Laker ever.

Could be, cross era comps are tricky and his health was more of a problem during his prime than either Magic or Oscar.

70sFan wrote:He was a scoring guard who was his team main playmaker. He usually played next to a typical SG like Barnett or Goodrich, though not always.

I have him as someone who started at SG and became full-time PG during his prime. It's reasonable to put him at both positions, it's fuzzy anyway.

What year would you say he made the switch to being a full time PG? He led the league in scoring for the first time in his career at 31, would you consider that still his prime?

migya wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:Jordan would make a heck of a 6th man today too if his ego could handle it. So would any incredibly great player.

West started as a combo guard but was used primarily, though not exclusively, at PG throughout his career. He was always an explosive scorer and very good defender, he added playmaking as his career progressed until he was leading the NBA in assists in the 70s.

Thus, like Magic, who started as a 2 guard next to Norm Nixon, played SG and SF almost exclusively defensively, and had the size to even swing to PF on occasion, we should call him a PG by conventional definitions because that's where he played the majority of his career. Probably top 3 PG of all time with Magic and Oscar (who like Magic was also a forward in college and played wing defensively in the pros).

That is a good take on West. I think overall though, he was better than Magic and maybe Robertson. I used to think Magic was better but West scored considerably better, playmaking difference is probably less than that of scoring, and was a better defender.

I think he is the best Laker ever.

You have West ahead of Kobe? Not that I have a issue with that but what's your criteria if one can exclude him as a GM and make it based strictly on his playing career?

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:

migya wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:Jordan would make a heck of a 6th man today too if his ego could handle it. So would any incredibly great player.

West started as a combo guard but was used primarily, though not exclusively, at PG throughout his career. He was always an explosive scorer and very good defender, he added playmaking as his career progressed until he was leading the NBA in assists in the 70s.

Thus, like Magic, who started as a 2 guard next to Norm Nixon, played SG and SF almost exclusively defensively, and had the size to even swing to PF on occasion, we should call him a PG by conventional definitions because that's where he played the majority of his career. Probably top 3 PG of all time with Magic and Oscar (who like Magic was also a forward in college and played wing defensively in the pros).

That is a good take on West. I think overall though, he was better than Magic and maybe Robertson. I used to think Magic was better but West scored considerably better, playmaking difference is probably less than that of scoring, and was a better defender.

I think he is the best Laker ever.

You have West ahead of Kobe? Not that I have a issue with that but what's your criteria if one can exclude him as a GM and make it based strictly on his playing career?

It's close but for me, West was a considerably better playmaker and bit more defender. Scoring is pretty equal.

migya wrote:It's close but for me, West was a considerably better playmaker and bit more defender. Scoring is pretty equal.

Would be interesting to see West during Kobe's career. Question about the 3, but he was an outstanding shooter. He was a 28/5/9 PER100 guy in his final season. And he was rocking TS% that would have been efficient all through Kobe's career back in the day. He'd murder it in today's game and with even a mediocre 3. Kobe was a little taller and more athletic, of course, and would also be a demon in today's game.

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:

70sFan wrote:He was a scoring guard who was his team main playmaker. He usually played next to a typical SG like Barnett or Goodrich, though not always.

I have him as someone who started at SG and became full-time PG during his prime. It's reasonable to put him at both positions, it's fuzzy anyway.

What year would you say he made the switch to being a full time PG? He led the league in scoring for the first time in his career at 31, would you consider that still his prime?

I think it happened around 1962/63 season when the Lakers replaced Selvy with Barnett at the starting 5. There are reports about West improving his ball-handling skills in the sophomore season, but he still shared PG duties with Frank.

After that season, the only time I'd say it's arguable whether he was a PG or not was in 1966-67 period when Hazzard started next to him. Walt was mostly an on-call player and playmaker. After he left the Lakers, West shared backcourt with players like Clark, Goodrich and Garret, none of which took PG role from West.

I'd say that West ended his prime with 1971 injury, though his 1971-72 RS was still very close to that level .

tsherkin wrote:

migya wrote:It's close but for me, West was a considerably better playmaker and bit more defender. Scoring is pretty equal.

Would be interesting to see West during Kobe's career. Question about the 3, but he was an outstanding shooter. He was a 28/5/9 PER100 guy in his final season. And he was rocking TS% that would have been efficient all through Kobe's career back in the day. He'd murder it in today's game and with even a mediocre 3. Kobe was a little taller and more athletic, of course, and would also be a demon in today's game.

Not sure if Kobe was actually taller. There are photos of the two standing side-by-side and they look the same height. Granted West was an old man by then and, speaking from experience, most of us old guys are an inch or two shorter than we were in our 20's. West himself said he was 6-4 and a half in bare feet during his Laker days, which would make him close to 6-6 in shoes. When asked why he was listed as either 6-2 or 6-3 in media guides, West angrily said 'how the hell would I know; I don't write that $%#&!' Better athlete? I remember an interview when Chick Hearn was asked that question since he saw most every game played by both West and Kobe as well as numerous practice sessions and (paraphrasing) he put it this way: Depends on how you define 'better athlete'. He thought Kobe might be a bit stronger but neither would remind anyone of Shaq or Wilt (two other guys he saw a lot of). Faster? Hearn would guess that in a full court sprint he thought Kobe would be a hair faster but West had the quicker first step and would be quicker if just looking at short lateral speed. And hand speed would be clearly West; Hearn felt that West may have had the fastest hands he ever saw. Hops? Hearn thought West could jump higher if just looking at them standing there and jumping straight up (he reminded listeners that West was periodically used for jump balls/tip-offs in college because of his great jumping ability). But jumping with body control - soaring to the basket while twisting and turning in the air would be clearly Kobe.

Anyway just thought it would be interesting to see how someone who likely saw more of both West and Kobe than any of us compared them as athletes.

Samurai wrote:Not sure if Kobe was actually taller. There are photos of the two standing side-by-side and they look the same height. Granted West was an old man by then and, speaking from experience, most of us old guys are an inch or two shorter than we were in our 20's. West himself said he was 6-4 and a half in bare feet during his Laker days, which would make him close to 6-6 in shoes. When asked why he was listed as either 6-2 or 6-3 in media guides, West angrily said 'how the hell would I know; I don't write that $%#&!'

It's possible. I never thought they were quite the same size but I've also never seen them standing next to one another. Size isn't just height, though. Granted, West was known for his wingspan, but not for his bulk/muscle mass.

athlete'. He thought Kobe might be a bit stronger but neither would remind anyone of Shaq or Wilt (two other guys he saw a lot of).

And odd comparison to make, since they weren't positionally related. Yeah, Kobe was stronger than West. Especially later Kobe, as he added bulk. Certainly not teenage Kobe, though, heh. He was skinnier back then and clearly put in the work over the breadth of his career.

Faster? Hearn would guess that in a full court sprint he thought Kobe would be a hair faster but West had the quicker first step and would be quicker if just looking at short lateral speed.

That one is tough for me to process. Setting aside subjective testimony from Hearn, there is also the challenge of evaluating that with old footage versus newer footage. West definitely got into his pull-up faster.

And hand speed would be clearly West; Hearn felt that West may have had the fastest hands he ever saw. Hops? Hearn thought West could jump higher if just looking at them standing there and jumping straight up (he reminded listeners that West was periodically used for jump balls/tip-offs in college because of his great jumping ability).

That, I believe. I've read Kobe at about 35" and West at about 42", so that isn't a huge surprise. Functional basketball leaping, well, you address that below but West was known to be a remarkable leaper.

But jumping with body control - soaring to the basket while twisting and turning in the air would be clearly Kobe.

Yeah, this is an area where Kobe shined. To an extent, to his detriment, because he grew too comfortable doing that and not getting better looks at the basket, but such is life. No one is a perfect player.

Anyway just thought it would be interesting to see how someone who likely saw more of both West and Kobe than any of us compared them as athletes.

That's an interesting read, thanks for sharing Hearn's side of things!

I think he is a pretty clearcut PG frankly. Assists were lower in the 60s so averaging 5-6 a game is like averaging 7-8 now. He never really had a PG on his team that were a core player on his team like SGs like Barnett and Goodrich were. They might have given him some minutes with another PG here and there (guys like Walt Hazzard and Johnny Egan) but the same is true of Oscar who did a season with Van Lier.

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:i am very confused about Jerry West as a player.

Explosive guard scoring that could take over games at wiill with the best of scorers in NBA history at any position. I have seen some people rank him as the 3rd greatest SG ever after MJ and Kobe,. Some rank Wade ahead of him

BUT

I've also seen people on RealGM in the past that say he was more a PG than a SG and have compared him to Magic, Curry, Oscar etc.

What is the general consensus on West.....should he be remembered as more a PG or SG?

He was a "lead guard" and he played with "off guards". That's typically how we call these things when you have one guard who is both your primary scorer and assister. Jordan & Kobe were lead guards too.

Now, West was more facilitation-oriented than Jordan or Kobe and so it's easier to see him as a "point guard" than them, but it's a bit of a force fit. While West was the best passer on his teams, he wasn't generally seen as a candidate for best passer (Oscar was the obvious choice). On the other hand, he was the best scorer in the world in his prime (better than Oscar, or Wilt, or certainly Baylor).

He's the perfect example of a combo guard.

Doctor MJ wrote:

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:i am very confused about Jerry West as a player.

Explosive guard scoring that could take over games at wiill with the best of scorers in NBA history at any position. I have seen some people rank him as the 3rd greatest SG ever after MJ and Kobe,. Some rank Wade ahead of him

BUT

I've also seen people on RealGM in the past that say he was more a PG than a SG and have compared him to Magic, Curry, Oscar etc.

What is the general consensus on West.....should he be remembered as more a PG or SG?

He was a "lead guard" and he played with "off guards". That's typically how we call these things when you have one guard who is both your primary scorer and assister. Jordan & Kobe were lead guards too.

Now, West was more facilitation-oriented than Jordan or Kobe and so it's easier to see him as a "point guard" than them, but it's a bit of a force fit. While West was the best passer on his teams, he wasn't generally seen as a candidate for best passer (Oscar was the obvious choice). On the other hand, he was the best scorer in the world in his prime (better than Oscar, or Wilt, or certainly Baylor).

I don't think it's a force fit at all, especially in today's league. He was a Steph Curry type PG who was score first but still a good facilitator who could play on or off ball. He wasn't Oscar (or Magic or Nash or Stockton) in terms of being a GOAT caliber passer but he was the PG on his team from roughly his 3rd year on except for a brief stretch as Dr. Positivity detailed above.

penbeast0 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:i am very confused about Jerry West as a player.

Explosive guard scoring that could take over games at wiill with the best of scorers in NBA history at any position. I have seen some people rank him as the 3rd greatest SG ever after MJ and Kobe,. Some rank Wade ahead of him

BUT

I've also seen people on RealGM in the past that say he was more a PG than a SG and have compared him to Magic, Curry, Oscar etc.

What is the general consensus on West.....should he be remembered as more a PG or SG?

He was a "lead guard" and he played with "off guards". That's typically how we call these things when you have one guard who is both your primary scorer and assister. Jordan & Kobe were lead guards too.

Now, West was more facilitation-oriented than Jordan or Kobe and so it's easier to see him as a "point guard" than them, but it's a bit of a force fit. While West was the best passer on his teams, he wasn't generally seen as a candidate for best passer (Oscar was the obvious choice). On the other hand, he was the best scorer in the world in his prime (better than Oscar, or Wilt, or certainly Baylor).

I don't think it's a force fit at all, especially in today's league. He was a Steph Curry type PG who was score first but still a good facilitator who could play on or off ball. He wasn't Oscar (or Magic or Nash or Stockton) in terms of being a GOAT caliber passer but he was the PG on his team from roughly his 3rd year on except for a brief stretch as Dr. Positivity detailed above.

So...I think calling Curry a "point guard" is actually even more of a force fit imho, because I would prefer not to call Curry a "lead guard" either. Yes he's played in those roles, but he's revolutionized the game specifically with his off-ball play in the Kerr years, and I'd prefer to call him a shooting guard or an off guard.

Doctor MJ wrote:While West was the best passer on his teams, he wasn't generally seen as a candidate for best passer (Oscar was the obvious choice). On the other hand, he was the best scorer in the world in his prime (better than Oscar, or Wilt, or certainly Baylor).

I don't see how this is relevant. If West wasn't a point guard because Oscar was a better passer, does that mean there can only be one point guard in the entire league in any season? Was Isiah Thomas not a point guard because he wasn't generally seen as a candidate for best passer over Magic? West has a case as best scorer of his era but it's by no means definitive. Oscar had more than double the number of seasons where he was top 5 in both scoring volume and efficiency, and if we look at something like TS Add, Oscar's 9th best season was better than West's 3rd best. Even with West being a better scorer than passer, I don't see how that excludes him from being a point guard.

As for the thread, I personally think it is merely a question of definition. We know for a fact West was the primary playmaker and ball handler on his team for most of his career - that's not really up for debate. The real question is whether every player who fits that description is a point guard. Is Harden a point guard? How about Pippen? At the end of the day, if positions serve no real purpose on the court and are only relevant as widely agreed upon labels, does it matter what position a player is? West being either a PG or a SG or a combo guard doesn't change who he actually was as a player.

Agree with LA Bird that definitions are pretty pointless. Though really point guard is the only truly problematic one. All the others are based primarily on what defensive assignment you have which is much more commonly parallel to size (not just height but overall size). It's only point guard that gets based primarily on offensive role.