Create best player under 6'10 (read rules)

[jojo4341]

IMO, either Shaq Curry or Hakeem Nash is the GOAT or some elite center + elite shooter combo. So let's lower the height requirement to make things more interesting.

Rules:

1. 1st person is the base (body). He does NOT lose any of his skills since he's in the same body.
2. 2nd person is simply adding the best attributes onto first person.
3. Neither player can be 6'10 or above according to https://www.basketball-reference.com/ listed heights.
4. MJ, Lebron and Curry are banned. Everyone will go Lebron Curry or Michael Curry, let's be honest.

For example, if you choose Mugsy Bogues (body) and Andrei Kirilenko, Mugsy isn't going to all of a sudden average 3 blocks a game as he's hindered by his height. He will, however, have Kirilenko's defensive instincts.

My pick goes to Scottie Miller. I went with the best perimeter defender with Reggie Miller's shooting and off-ball movement. Since Pippen is already a good passer for his size, I didn't need Nash. Therefore, I added IMO, the 2nd best shooter...no disrespect to Klay or Ray Allen. I have some other good combos but I'll let others bring them out.

[JLei]

I'd just combine 2016 or 2017 Kawhi and Bird or Kawhi and CP3 or Kawhi and Luka. I'd probably even favor Luka in this case since he adds a step back 3 where as Kawhi was already good at catch and shoot (Bird strength) and getting his Mid Range (CP3 strength).

Just give DPOY Kawhi savant level playmaking and better ball handling.

You now have a player that is better than Michael Jordan/ Lebron and would be the best player of all time.

[jojo4341]

I'd just combine 2016 or 2017 Kawhi and Bird or Kawhi and CP3 or Kawhi and Luka. I'd probably even favor Luka in this case since he adds a step back 3 where as Kawhi was already good at catch and shoot (Bird strength) and getting his Mid Range (CP3 strength).

Just give DPOY Kawhi savant level playmaking and better ball handling.

You now have a player that is better than Michael Jordan/ Lebron and would be the best player of all time.

Kawhi was one of my alternates. I'd have gone with Kawhi (Isiah) Thomas. Kawhi's weakness is passing and playmaking...thus, Thomas should cover that well. He gives fancier ball handling and better finishing at the rim while still being an elite passer.

[tsherkin]

Hmmm. Magic + Kawhi would be really compelling to me.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Dennis Rodman + Steve Nash
I don't think there's a better "skill" player than Nash to use in a game like this.
Young Rodman had insane lateral quickness and motor being a perfect base.

[jojo4341]

Dennis Rodman + Steve Nash
I don't think there's a better "skill" player than Nash to use in a game like this.
Young Rodman had insane lateral quickness and motore being a perfect base.

That was exactly one of my other alternates and almost second-guessed my own pick. Well done! Yeah, give Rodman Nash's shooting, passing and offensive BBIQ while (prime) Rodman can guard bigs better than Pippen while being no slouch on the perimeter.

[jojo4341]

Hmmm. Magic + Kawhi would be really compelling to me.

Can't believe I didn't even think of Magic as he's arguably my favorite player. I just assumed adding Isiah or Stockton since they're "little" guys with elite passing. But yeah, I assume you mean Kawhi's body since he gets the athleticism and defense by default. Then, you add Magic's passing, BBIQ and junior sky hooks...that is an awesome combination. Oh, and you get Magic's personality of hyping up his teammates.

[tsherkin]

Hmmm. Magic + Kawhi would be really compelling to me.

Can't believe I didn't even think of Magic as he's arguably my favorite player. I just assumed adding Isiah or Stockton since they're "little" guys with elite passing. But yeah, I assume you mean Kawhi's body since he gets the athleticism and defense by default. Then, you add Magic's passing, BBIQ and junior sky hooks...that is an awesome combination. Oh, and you get Magic's personality of hyping up his teammates.

No, I don't mean Kawhi's body. Magic's body was fine, and he had more height. Kawhi's defense and his mid-range shooting, though, coupled to his dribble drive action would be more than enough to take him into a whole different category. And then yes, Magic's post game, his passing, his persona, etc.

[vxmike]

Dennis Rodman + Kobe Bryant

Best defender/rebounder and top 5 physical GOAT plus one of the most skilled overall offensive players ever.

[OhayoKD]

Hmmm. Magic + Kawhi would be really compelling to me.

Can't believe I didn't even think of Magic as he's arguably my favorite player. I just assumed adding Isiah or Stockton since they're "little" guys with elite passing. But yeah, I assume you mean Kawhi's body since he gets the athleticism and defense by default. Then, you add Magic's passing, BBIQ and junior sky hooks...that is an awesome combination. Oh, and you get Magic's personality of hyping up his teammates.

No, I don't mean Kawhi's body. Magic's body was fine, and he had more height. Kawhi's defense and his mid-range shooting, though, coupled to his dribble drive action would be more than enough to take him into a whole different category. And then yes, Magic's post game, his passing, his persona, etc.

That defense is reliant on kawhi's body and frankly the offense is better if it's kawhi's body too.

[Ol Roy]

Larry Malone

[tsherkin]

That defense is reliant on kawhi's body and frankly the offense is better if it's kawhi's body too.

Can't really say I agree, tbh.

[jojo4341]

Since some combos were already mentioned, one other that I thought would be interesting was Charles Stockton. Like Rodman, Barkley is an anomoly for his size. Since I can't really improve his shotblocking (even though he was very capable when he tried), I wanted to add someone with superior shooting to increase Barkley's terrible 3P%, passing and on-ball defense. Stockton was perfect for that.

And upon further consideration, I have to agree with Ryoga and settle on Dennis Nash. P4P Rodman is just as good as Pippen at guarding all 5 positions, possibly better. But his rebounding at his size is too good to pass up, dwarfing Pippen's rebounding.

[Djoker]

Bill Russell (body) and Steve Nash (skills) for the ultimate two-way big. Suddenly Russell can shoot like a fiend and becomes a GOAT-level passer in an insanely athletic body. Of course since we only get Russell's body, we lose some of those defensive instincts but still a player with his physical gifts can become a dominant defender in any era.

[jojo4341]

Bill Russell (body) and Steve Nash (skills) for the ultimate two-way big. Suddenly Russell can shoot like a fiend and becomes a GOAT-level passer in an insanely athletic body. Of course since we only get Russell's body, we lose some of those defensive instincts but still a player with his physical gifts can become a dominant defender in any era.

I guess I wasn't too clear. Choosing the body doesn't mean you lose the skills of that body. You would keep Russell's defensive instincts. You're simply adding Nash's skills. I know BBREF says 6'10, but I also know he used to be listed at 6'9 so we can let it slide. Great pick regardless! I opted to not pick anyone I haven't seen live (on TV).

[henshao]

Bill Russell (body) and Steve Nash (skills) for the ultimate two-way big. Suddenly Russell can shoot like a fiend and becomes a GOAT-level passer in an insanely athletic body.

Would be tough to beat that, I'm going to send in Ben WallChris Paul to try to slow him down

[DraymondGold]

Re: Kawhi,
If we're trying to match a wing defender with a better offensive player, I'm tempted to go Pippen over Kawhi. We have less granular data for Pippen, there's more uncertainty with rating defense generally, and peak defense Kawhi was a beast, so there's definitely an argument for peak Kawhi. But there's also an argument that Pippen was the better defender at his peak (or at least not much worse).... and Pippen had significantly better health, and a longer defensive prime than Kawhi (who had a major drop off in after ~2016).

Kawhi's definitely the better offensive player at his offensive peak, largely driven by his clear scoring advantage, but that also came later after his defense had waned, and is less of an advantage if we're pairing them with a more offensive-oriented player.

I'd rather Pippen + Magic or Pippen + Bird or Pippen + Durant among player with similar height to Pippen (or I suppose Nash/CP3 if we're okay mixing much shorter players). Personally, I'd probably go Pippen + Magic or Pippen + Durant since I think their style of offense matches better with Pippen's body type than Bird. Magic is obviously the better offensive player than Durant, but I think Pippen's starting point as a better playmaker is higher than his starting point as a scorer, which might be reason to choose Durant depending on which way you're leaning.

Re: Big body + small skill,
there's a variety of ways to consider player hybrid. In one version, you add the players' skills regardless of how physically realistic it is. In another, you also have to consider whether it's physically realistic for a player to gain the skills of both. This is apparent in the classic example of making a hybrid from Shaq + Curry. If this is your hybrid, are you saying a 300+ pound man gains the hand-eye coordination (and perhaps the practice?) to shoot like Curry, or are you also saying he's fast enough, agile enough, and has enough endurance to run around perimeter screens and cut off-ball like Curry?

The latter isn't really physically possible, but if you include considerations for what's physically possible, that might limit how additive the skill is. Part of what makes Curry so dangerous is his shooting combined with his off-ball play, while Shaq with Curry's hand-eye coordination would only really be able to play as a spot-up big or pick and pop big. Still super additive, still an unstoppable player, but not nearly as good as the totally unrealistic player who had Curry's shooting, Curry's handle, Curry's off-ball activity and exterior gravity, with Shaq's athleticism and rim pressure and interior gravity.

A similar idea applies to motor, which often isn't considered with player hybrids. A player would need the motor to fully maximize their added sills on offense/defense, and some players don't have the motor to go all-out on defense while carrying the larger load on offense (e.g. Kawhi). You'd still gain skills of course, and the hybrid would still be better, they just wouldn't be fully maximized compared to a player who also had the motor to sustain the added offense/defense.

For players like Russell + Nash or Ben Wallace + CP3 or Dennis + Nash, how does the added height affect the security of their dribble, for example? Taller players tend to have less secure dribbles, in part because the ball has to bounce higher before reaching their hand, which gives time for defenders to swipe. Do the players dribble exactly like CP3 and Nash would, in which case do they then have less secure handles? Do they use CP3/Nash's hand eye coordination to adapt to the style of handle that better suits bigs, and in which case how well are they at adapting? Does their face-up game pair well with the bigger bodies? When CP3 or Nash are snaking around screens in the midrange, how well do the bigger bodies of Russell or Wallace hold up under those additional agility requirements? There's similar factor for Scottie + Miller: playing like Miller requires more agility, and I'm not sure a physically-realistic version of Pippen's body could move with the same agility as Miller (but since this is a thought experiment for fun anyway, this might not matter to some people).

When trying to be physically realistic, I try to match players within a similar range of heights/body types, or at least try to consider how well the skills of Player B would pair with the body of Player A. For the taller centers like Russell or Ben Wallace, I'd probably prefer adding Bird or Magic or Dirk or Jokic's offense, since those play styles are more catered to having a larger body than Nash/CP3. I might prefer Russell+Magic > Russell + Nash, given that I think Magic's offensive style is more suitable to Russell's body type (plus I prefer Magic's offense > Nash's anyway, so it's a win-win).

Personally,
while I"m not sure if it's the best possible hybrid under 6'10 without Jordan/LeBron/Curry, I'd be most excited to see a player like Draymond + Bird. It might be the most scalable player ever. Bird had a great defensive mind and a ton of toughness. He was a great defensive rebounder, and provided good help defense. But he didn't have the body to fully maximize his mind, without the horizontal foot speed, and he didn't quite have the length + verticality to be the best rim protector at his position. Draymond fills those gaps physically.

On offense, his biggest limitation was probably either his handle or his lack of rim pressure. Draymond doesn't have the best handle of someone his size, but it's still pretty good -- I think the hybrid would have a better handle, which would help Bird's versatility on-ball and might also slightly help when he's driving to the basket.

Overall, the biggest limitation for Bird was his health. He was injured in nearly every odd-numbered playoff year. His cumulative injuries also reduced his defense as he aged, and generally hurt his longevity. Draymond's not the picture of perfect durability and longevity (Bird + Malone would absolutely be better from that front), but it's still a clear boost to Bird's health and thus his longevity. The added durability from Draymond with Bird's free throw shooting might also mean the hybrid are more comfortable taking contact at the rim to get free throws, which could slightly help both of their weaknesses in rim scoring. Plus the combined IQ from those two might just make the smartest player ever.

Like I said, not sure whether it's the best possible hybrid or not, but it might be the one I want to see the most.

[tsherkin]

I'd rather Pippen + Magic

I guess in my head I was thinking that Kawhi adds defense but also adds offense, whereas Pippen doesn't add anything offensively to Magic, you know?

[Owly]

...
For players like Russell + Nash or Ben Wallace + CP3 or Dennis + Nash, how does the added height affect the security of their dribble, for example? Taller players tend to have less secure dribbles, in part because the ball has to bounce higher before reaching their hand, which gives time for defenders to swipe. Do the players dribble exactly like CP3 and Nash would, in which case do they then have less secure handles? Do they use CP3/Nash's hand eye coordination to adapt to the style of handle that better suits bigs, and in which case how well are they at adapting? Does their face-up game pair well with the bigger bodies? When CP3 or Nash are snaking around screens in the midrange, how well do the bigger bodies of Russell or Wallace hold up under those additional agility requirements? There's similar factor for Scottie + Miller: playing like Miller requires more agility, and I'm not sure a physically-realistic version of Pippen's body could move with the same agility as Miller (but since this is a thought experiment for fun anyway, this might not matter to some people).
...

I had been mulling some thoughts along these lines

The Shaq-small is an obvious example.

The Bogues one in OP with as an interpretation gives another from the opposite angle... Bogues where rather than exposing a hope to game the system it's explicit that the body limits the applied skills.

So yeah when the actual Russell and Wallace player are (RS) .561 and .414 from the line how much can we separate the bodies from the applied skill and to what degree can we separate their levers and joints and nerves etc from that and to what degree were they part of the limitation. My mind isn't popping with a bunch of long, springy, fast-twitch, taller forward sized guys that were also elite shooters. Otoh, the same with really broad guys that rebound a bunch with shooting. That isn't to say it's impossible, or that I haven't missed someone. Maybe it's just rare things so having both is super rare. Maybe hypothetical-Porzingis or Wemby and Chet destroy this idea doing it with even greater length (maybe it breaks back at greater heights where you don't need as much spring and you can shoot something like a set shot in game). There's degrees ... the following are not all eligible but Garnett was rangy and a rim protector and a good shooter, Karl Malone fashioned himself into a a solidly regarded shooter as a big strong guy. Robinson is somewhat of a cross in that he was big and fairly springy and had a gymnastics background and had some fawning over his upper body and was regarded - for the time and the position - as a good shooter. Ibaka got to a level with the 3, but didn't pair the 2 (springy block monster and floor stretcher) at full-strength one time and was a good rather than elite shooter.

But how much we can separate the two things and therefore what is fair game ... is always going to be a bit fuzzy.

[OhayoKD]

I'd rather Pippen + Magic

I guess in my head I was thinking that Kawhi adds defense but also adds offense, whereas Pippen doesn't add anything offensively to Magic, you know?

Yeah, Magic is basically a much better Pippen offensively, it's a bad pick.