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Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE — Magic Johnson

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Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE — Magic Johnson 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Tue Nov 12, 2024 9:38 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1987-88.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 16:30PM EST on Friday, November 15th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by One_and_Done » Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:17 pm

I assume my vote for the next 6 years will be for Jordan. We'll see if there's an unusually good case for someone like D.Rob in a singular year, but I doubt it.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by Djoker » Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:34 pm

Here is some ON-OFF Data for 1987-88.

Michael Jordan

Regular Season (43 games) - Partial

ON: +5.1
OFF: -14.7
ON-OFF: +19.8

Postseason (10 games)

ON: -4.0
OFF: -7.8
ON-OFF: +3.8

Magic Johnson

Regular Season (54 games) - Partial

ON: +10.1
OFF: -9.3
ON-OFF: +19.4

Larry Bird

Regular Season (43 games) - Partial

ON: +7.2
OFF: -2.3
ON-OFF: +9.5

Charles Barkley

Regular Season (82 games)

ON: -0.9
OFF: -3.6
ON-OFF: +2.7
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by Special_Puppy » Tue Nov 12, 2024 10:42 pm

Djoker wrote:Here is some ON-OFF Data for 1987-88.

Michael Jordan

Regular Season (43 games) - Partial

ON: +5.1
OFF: -14.7
ON-OFF: +19.8

Postseason (10 games)

ON: -4.0
OFF: -7.8
ON-OFF: +3.8

Magic Johnson

Regular Season (54 games) - Partial

ON: +10.1
OFF: -9.3
ON-OFF: +19.4

Larry Bird

Regular Season (43 games) - Partial

ON: +7.2
OFF: -2.3
ON-OFF: +9.5

Charles Barkley

Regular Season (82 games)

ON: -0.9
OFF: -3.6
ON-OFF: +2.7


How do we have on/off data for all 82 games of 1987-88 Sixers?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by B-Mitch 30 » Tue Nov 12, 2024 11:34 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:How do we have on/off data for all 82 games of 1987-88 Sixers?

As a Philly native, I joke that that's just how dedicated us sports fans are to our teams.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by Lebronnygoat » Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:12 am

One_and_Done wrote:I assume my vote for the next 6 years will be for Jordan. We'll see if there's an unusually good case for someone like D.Rob in a singular year, but I doubt it.

How can you say that when Magic Johnson had one of the greatest playmaking seasons ever, and played way better against the Pistons than Jordan did, who Jordan also dropped against. Magic’s first 3 playoff rounds negate Jordan’s one round vs the 1988 Cavs with injured Harper.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by One_and_Done » Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:20 am

Lebronnygoat wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:I assume my vote for the next 6 years will be for Jordan. We'll see if there's an unusually good case for someone like D.Rob in a singular year, but I doubt it.

How can you say that when Magic Johnson had one of the greatest playmaking seasons ever, and played way better against the Pistons than Jordan did, who Jordan also dropped against. Magic’s first 3 playoff rounds negate Jordan’s one round vs the 1988 Cavs with injured Harper.

Because Jordan is a better player? Magic has the benefit of a great supporting cast around him, which impacts how each performs.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by penbeast0 » Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:23 am

LA had the best RS record and wins the title again, Magic Johnson clearly a POY candidate. Boston is second but Bad Boy Pistons (tied for 3rd in RS) beat them in ECF. McHale has one of his best years, but Boston's star is still Larry Bird giving McHale more single coverage than any comparable post star I can remember. Bird's playoffs v. Detroit were unimpressive as Adrian Dantley played good defense (yup, said it) on him while supersub Dennis Rodman had his minutes cut. Isiah Thomas took the offensive lead in that series, shooting the ball roughly half again as much as Dantley did after they had shared the scoring load to that point.

The Lakers closest competitors out west were Denver, Dallas, and Portland. Aging Alex English continued to lead Denver in scoring but Fat Lever was a walking triple double threat. In Dallas, Aguirre was their primary scorer but two way guards Derek Harper and Rolando Blackman were just as important if not more. And Portland was led by Clyde Drexler.

Other winning teams were Chicago (Jordan won MVP), Atlanta (Nique scored 30 a game), Utah (Stockton finally got to start alongside Karl Malone), Houston (gave up on the Twin Towers and traded Sampson), Seattle, Milwaukee (Moncrief's breakdown hurt), and Cleveland.

Jordan led the league in scoring, Michael Cage in rebounding, and Stockton in assists. Box score compilation stats all had Jordan on top and he got the DPOY as well.

POY:
1. Magic Johnson -- Jordan had the best individual year but Magic led his team to a stronger Ortg (2nd to Boston) and a title as well.
2. Micheal Jordan -- like with Wilt, the best individual player in the league may not be the greatest winner . . . yet. Cue Phil Jackson in the wings.
3. Larry Bird -- disappointing playoffs after another amazing regular season
4. Hakeem Olujawon -- still not passing particularly well and Houston only 4th defensively (Utah first with Eaton/Malone/Stockton and Jerry Sloan) but carried the team as it changed identity with the Sampson trade
5. Isiah Thomas -- expecting some blowback on this especially since I haven't been an Isiah fan to this point. His numbers are down from his peak but team results are good (2nd defensively, 6th offensively) and they made the finals with a big series from him against Boston.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by trelos6 » Wed Nov 13, 2024 3:10 am

OPOY

1.Larry Bird. Throughout the 80’s, this has been Magic’s spot. By default, I place his name first. However, 87-88 Bird was different, arguably Bird’s peak offensively. 28.2 pp75, +7 rTS%, team rOrtg +7.3 (league leading). His passing took a slight dip as he was scoring more, but he was still a great passer. In the playoffs, the Celtics lost to the Pistons, who, was an Isiah turned ankle away from probably winning the chip and beating MJ, Larry, and Magic in a row! That Pistons D dropped MJ’s true shooting 5.4%, Bird’s efficiency dropped even more, 9%. But Bird was still a good playmaker, and thus, narrowly beats out Magic and Mike.

2.Magic Johnson. Still the best playmaker and passer in the league. 19.4 pp75 on +4.3 rTS%, team rOrtg of +5. Better offense than the Celtics in the playoffs, and managed to perform well against the Pistons, who were giving all the top scorers struggles.

3.Michael Jordan. 32.7 pp75 on +6.5% rTS%. Team rOrtg of +0.9. These Bulls were a strong defensive team, so getting this volume scoring and efficiency from Mike is enough to make the Bulls a 50 win team in 87-88.


DPOY

1.Hakeem Olajuwon. Utah were the #1 team, but I feel Karl Malone and John Stockton were pretty good, detracting from some of Eaton’s value. Hakeem was starting to ramp up into his defensive peak (few more seasons to go), but was still an all time level defender.

2.Mark Eaton. Still a terrific rim protector. Just because you have a good defensive team around you, doesn’t make you ineligible.

3.Bill Laimbeer. Pistons defense in the playoffs was nasty. And Laimbeer played a good deal more minutes than Rodman. Was considering Ewing, but I wanted to reward the Pistons D, even though it was largely a team effort.


POY

1.Michael Jordan. Levelled up, big time. +6.37 OPIPM, +2.21 DPIPM. +8.58 PIPM. 25.24 Wins Added. Part of a great defensive unit, and offensively carried the load to a positive offense with some great volume and efficiency.

2.Magic Johnson. Not the best offense anymore, thanks to Bird, but they were more resilient against the Pistons. +3.97 OPIPM, +0.08 DPIPM. +4.05 PIPM. 14.89 Wins Added.

3.Larry Bird. Despite his terrific offense, the defense really slipped. Still a great defensive rebounder, but can’t move how he used to. +5.11 OPIPM, +0.51 DPIPM. +5.62 PIPM. 18.69 Wins Added.

4.Hakeem Olajuwon. Close to Magic, was brilliant in the playoffs, but his team wasn’t great so the sample size is only 4 games. +1.98 OPIPM, +3.67 DPIPM. +5.65 PIPM. 15.64 Wins Added. 22.6 pp75 on +1.7 rTS%.

5.Charles Barkley. It’s tough leaving him off the OPOY ballot, but there were 3 amazing options. +5.29 OPIPM, -0.25 DPIPM. +5.04 PIPM. 15 Wins Added. 26.8 pp75 on +12.7 rTS%.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by B-Mitch 30 » Wed Nov 13, 2024 3:19 am

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Michael Jordan

After his superb rookie season, and shortened sophomore season, MJ honestly regressed a bit last year. Like some other users have said though, his already incredible game took a huge step up in 1988. The Bulls had the third best record in the East, behind two loaded and legendary Celtics and Pistons teams, while Jordan stuffed the stat sheet. He led the NBA in scoring on a field goal percentage that was as good as the average true shooting percentage, while drawing the 2nd most fouls in the league, and being 19th in assists. His numbers in the playoffs were also excellent, though the Pistons managed to stop MJ, as they were wont to do in the 80’s.

2. Magic Johnson

Magic is such a default choice by this point that I don’t really know what to say. Best passer in the league, one of the best scorers, good rebounding, etc.

3. Clyde Drexler

I already laid out a case for Clyde as one of the best offensive players last season. That Blazers team had good stats in every offensive category except turnovers. This year’s team was just as good, and had the 4th best turnover percentage in the league. Clyde was 2nd on the Blazers in assists, while being their leading scorer and offensive rebounder.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Hakeem Olajuwon

The Rockets continue to be one of the best defenses in the NBA despite Hakeem having basically no help. If you can name a player better at defense this year, or all time, besides Bill Russell, I’d like to see them.

2. Mark Eaton

The case for Eaton this year is similar, though I’m giving the nod to Hakeem because of his clearly better mobility and switchability.

3. Michael Jordan

The Bulls became one of the best defenses in the league this season after being mediocre at best for the past few years. There’s been lots of analysis for why this was the case, as well as if MJ deserved the DPOTY award he got out of it. My take is that while MJ’s steals, and to a lesser extent, blocks numbers were inflated, I don’t think MJ or the Bulls scorekeeper, Bob Rosenberg, conspired to make MJ the winner so that LeBron would lose GOAT debates to MJ, or whatever crazy Twitter fans think Jordan is like. Most writing about the award at the time seemed to focus on the eye test and team results funnily enough. In addition, Jordan’s block and steal numbers are only a bit better than last season, when the home and road splits were more even. Again, that’s not to deny that there was inflation, or even that other players, such as Charles Oakley, played a part in Bulls defense this season. The fact is though, that the team from last year was very similar to this one, and that the Bulls new additions, like Scottie Pippen, got limited playing time. Frankly a lot of this analysis makes me want to roll my eyes. Who cares that a lot of or most of MJ’s blocks were on the weak side? Would it have been better if MJ had never tried to get a weak side block at all?

Player of the Year

1. Michael Jordan

Obviously the best offensive player and best defensive guard in the league wins this.

2. Magic Johnson

There were no real holes in Magic’s season, other than the fact he likely only won the Finals because of a bad foul call against Detroit.

3. Clyde Drexler

In some regards, Clyde was an even better all-around player than MJ, though obviously way worse as a scorer.

4. Karl Malone

Malone broke out this year, finally getting the hang of his free throw shooting, and actually having one of his better playoff runs.

5. Hakeem Olajuwon

Hakeem was great in the regular season and playoffs, but Houston lost in the first round.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by One_and_Done » Wed Nov 13, 2024 4:06 am

Yeh I need to consider Mailman too.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by AEnigma » Wed Nov 13, 2024 4:17 am

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Mark Eaton
3. Patrick Ewing


Gave Eaton some serious thought because of the near Lakers upset, but Stockton/Bailey/Malone more than makes up for the disparity in defensive results in my eyes. Still an order of magnitude above any defender other than Hakeem though.
The last two years the Jazz have easily had the best defense in the NBA. No one's really been close to them. The main reason for this has obviously been Mark Eaton. Over the last two years, Eaton has had no individual competition for the blocked shot leadership and has actually outblocked the whole Golden State team by 21. There is a lot of defensive talent around Eaton, but without him, it is a vulnerable defense.

The other big reason for the tremendous defensive stats this team has put up is the way it rotates on defense. Pat Riley was complaining throughout the series with the Jazz that they were playing a zone defense, but he rarely got the call. In a sense, the Jazz were playing a zone, but it was a match-up zone, heavy on the match-up, light on the zone. In college, most match-up zones you see are heavy on the zone and defenders can be caught being indecisive on staying with a player cutting through the middle.

The Jazz defense is devised to keep Eaton down low in the key. They don't have much trouble doing that even when Eaton's man plays outside as Eaton can usually take someone else who is playing close to the basket and send a defender out to his former man. The other players fight through picks a lot like in a normal man-to-man, but exceptional quickness keeps them from getting burned too much. The Jazz doesn't have to play that sort of straight man-to-man too long, though, because they double-team or entice dangerous passes by laying off defenders early in a possession. In that way, the Jazz are one of the few teams to force a quick pace with their defense.

Ewing plays lower minutes than guys like Laimbeer or Oakley… because Cartwright’s presence permits him to be extremely aggressive. 4 fouls per 31 minutes of game time, just silly stuff. But it does correspond with one of the two highest block rates of his career and a team defensive rating which will not be eclipsed until 1992. Hard for me to see the Pistons being any worse or the Knicks any better if Laimbeer and Ewing switched places.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Michael Jordan


Bird might have eclipsed Magic here if the postseason had gone differently, but despite the historic regular season offence, and despite the advantage in games played, in the postseason Magic yet again shone and Bird yet again faded.

Jordan fared better against the Pistons than Bird did, but five games does not erase 82 games where it was not even a question.

Keeping this section short because there is so much overlap with my RPoY reasoning.

Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Larry Bird
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Isiah Thomas


Still a case of four MVP-calibre players; next year it drops to three before a temporary rebound in 1990. Jordan has his best season to date: he finally brings his team above .500 and wins a tight first round series, before having one of the worst series of his career against the Pistons. He does not struggle quite as much individually against the Pistons as Bird does, but his limited team playmaking is unable to leverage the attention directed his way, and the Bulls’ offence is consequently abominable.
semi-sentient wrote:the Pistons couldn't have played Magic the way they played Jordan anyway. Magic was always looking to get out on the break and didn't put himself in the same situations that Jordan did. I've seen plenty of video during the "Jordan Rules" years where he is taking shots with 3 defenders on him, much like Kobe did in 2004/2008.

Jordan is supposed to get a pass for those type of low percentage shots? Go look at some of that video on YouTube and you'll see plenty of situations where he took a bad shot when he could have dumped the ball off to someone else. He was just taking it personally and trying to beat the Pistons on his own. When Magic posts up he usually gets a very high percentage shot for himself or dumps it off to someone with a brilliant pass when the defense least expected it. You hardly ever see Jordan doing that kind of thing unless he gets caught in the air and makes on of those wraparound passes, which is more of a fortunate bailout than a spectacular offensive play.

Maybe that's why Magic is more valuable though -- because you can't shut him down by forcing him into taking poor shots or making bad passes. He controls/dictates what happens on offense and that's a bit more difficult to stop than someone whose primary role is to score points.

Not the case for Magic, who is absolutely brilliant against the Pistons. 21/13 on 67.4% true shooting against a defence that erased the other two best offensive players in the league. Worthy’s Game 7 was extraordinary enough to be worth a Finals MVP, but for the full series, Magic was yet again the championship engine in a way no one else in the league could replicate. He played four elimination games this year (two against the Pistons) and averaged 22/15 on 67.2% efficiency across them. Ludicrous. No one you would rather have if you cared about winning a title.
ronnymac wrote:maybe Magic in 1988 wouldn't beat out Magic in 87, 89, or 90. But he doesn't have to here. :D

Those team aspects could be for a variety of reasons. I mean, look at KAJ from 87 to 88. All of his stats went down, expecially in the playoffs. Why is that important? Well, on a run-n-gun team like LA, Jabbar's ability to score in the halfcourt in the playoffs when things bog down was important. The playoffs were a lot tougher for the Lakers in 1988, and I think Jabbar's decline could be the biggest reason for that. Seriously, look at his playoff TS% in 87 and 88.

Was Magic a worse player? He had worse stats, sure. HIs team still won 62 games (they were 5-5 in the games played without him), he still was third in mvp voting, and his team won the championship, with Magic performing like a superstar individually. He played like a GOAT in the finals and was screwed out of a finals MVP (yeah, I said it). He was better in the finals against Detroit than Michael Jordan was against Detroit. 21/13/6/2 with 3 to's and 10 trips to the line per game. Great percentages.

He was the constant in the series. Worthy and Scott and the rest could have great shooting nights or poor ones, but Magic was the constant, even in losses. He had the flu in game 2, and with his team in danger of losing both games at home, he dropped 23/13/7. He dropped 22/19 in game 6 with his team down 3-2. He dropped 19/14 in game 7. He's such a mismatch that the pg's can't guard him. Joe Dumars could at least try to take some aspect away from Jordan. Magic took Dumars right into the post and shot uncontested hook shots over him. Worm? Probably the best matchup physically, but he obviously didn't work out too well looking at Magic's numbers.

It should be noted that in over 50% of Magic's playoffs games, he was going up against a top 2 defense in the league that year ito defensive rating. That might explain his so-called "drop" in play.

Bird again accomplishes more than Hakeem, who is a year away from settling into his true defensive peak, and Hakeem having one of the most productive series in league history does not quite erase that achievement gap.

In addition to this being the first time Jordan won more games and went farther in the playoffs — sadly will become the norm as their team situations continue their inverted trajectories — Hakeem is also no longer a clearly superior playoff performer: for as productive as Hakeem was against the Mavericks, Jordan was similarly productive against the Cavaliers. As it will often be, difference there is ultimately team support, with some excellent defence and rebounding from the Bulls’ frontcourt rotation of Oakley, Grant, and Corzine, plus a breakout game 5 from Scottie Pippen to secure the series. Meanwhile, Joe Barely Cares is a comically terrible fit as a frontcourt partner, Robert Reid and Purvis Short are finished as starter-calibre players, Rodney McCray struggles to do anything, and Sleepy Floyd is unable to recreate his stunning play from last year outside of one game (although does at least provide enough competent guard play in the other three games to ensure Hakeem is given the ball). Better get used to it, because we are five seasons away from a return to serious contention.
The Mavs still couldn't stop Olajuwon, but they kept the rest of the Rockets under control as they swept to a 53-45 halftime lead.

In the first half, the Rockets had no perimeter game other than an occasional 18-foot turnaround by Olajuwon. Shooting guards Robert Reid and Purvis Short were a combined 1-for-9 to start the game.

The Rockets came out with a more determined inside effort to start the third quarter.

McCray, who missed 6 of his first 7 shots, went coast to coast for a driving layin as Houston tied at 59. That brought the crowd into the game.

When Carroll hooked in a rebound, the Rockets led 64-63, and Olajuwon followed with a fast-break slam to put the Rockets up by three. By now The Summit was in pandemonium.

The Mavericks continually sagged in on Olajuwon and gave the Rocket guards the outside shot, aware that they were having trouble hitting it.

Reid continued to miss open shots and became visibly frustrated, pounding the press table after he clanged a 16-footer that bounced over the backboard.

Floyd did sink a 3-pointer to put the Rockets ahead 75-71 with a minute left in the third period, and they carried a four-point lead into the final period.

But then they went into their half-court, motionless shell and produced 15 points for the quarter.

"We were double-teaming Akeem all the time," Tarpley said. "We were hoping to force someone else to shoot."

But no one else could hit. And finally, not even Olajuwon could.

Isiah is not an automatic inclusion for me the way he will be the next two years, but he is the leader of the league’s second-best team (by both SRS and playoff results), and that is more worthy of recognition than what any other mere all-NBA calibre player can offer.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by Lost92Bricks » Wed Nov 13, 2024 5:07 am

Lebronnygoat wrote:How can you say that when Magic Johnson had one of the greatest playmaking seasons ever, and played way better against the Pistons than Jordan did, who Jordan also dropped against. Magic’s first 3 playoff rounds negate Jordan’s one round vs the 1988 Cavs with injured Harper.

He got outplayed by John Stockton
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by OhayoKD » Wed Nov 13, 2024 5:22 am

Kola's ballot:
1988

Spoiler:
Magic Johnson - (Grain Version) Yuki
Grade: Special
Hoop Expansion - Showtime Slaughter

Ball Techniques:
+ Perfect Passer
+ Bom-Ba-Ball handling; Reverse-Ball Technique - Turbo Transition; Maximum Output - Layup Limbo
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Floor-General - Special Grade

Baller Vow:
+ In Exchange for playing with Kareem, Magic must retire early and let MJ three-peat

Key Chapters:
+ Los Angeles School wins conference cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Pistons - Bucket Getter - Grade 1


Hakeem Olajuwon - (Grain Version) Maki
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Center Cemetery

Ball Techniques
+ Russellian Remix
+ Post-up Nightmare; Reverse Ball-Technique - Dream Shot; Maximum Output - A Three-Man’s Dream
+ A Dreamer’s Postseason - 2 arc use
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 Grade 3
+ Rim-Protection - Special Grade
+ Stoppah - Special Grade; Reverse Ball-Technique - Running Robinsons - 1 arc use
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Baller Vow
+ In exchange for dominating Micheal Jordan in Baller-Battles, Hakeem may never face MJ in a battle that matters

Key Chapters:
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Mavericks - Bucket-Getter - Special Grade


Micheal Jordan - (Grain Version) Kashimo
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Collinearity Merchant

Ball Techniques:
+ Cursed Chucker
+ Mid-Range Kitchen
+ Gifted Gambler; Reverse Ball-Technique; Fastbreak Frenzy
+ Bucket-Getter - Special Grade
+ Stoppah - Grade 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a fake DPOY, Jordan can only win playoff games with Pippen

Key Chapters:
- Hooper Burnout vs Pistons - Bucket-Getter - Grade 1

Isiah Thomas - (Grain Version) Kokichi Muta
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion (Incomplete) - Dreamteam Doldrums

Ball-Techniques:
+ Crossover Conjuring
+ Bucket-Getter Grade 3
+ Floor-General Grade 2

Key Chapters:
+ Detroit School makes Conference Cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry against Boston School
+ Hoop Flash Flurry against Los Angeles School

Larry Bird - (Grain Version) Todo
Grade: 1
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ Precision Passer
+ Idle Cardio
- Useless Helper
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 3 4
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 3
+ Floor-General - Grade 1

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a successful non-player NBA career, Bird will have to deal with a chronic back condition while he plays
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by AEnigma » Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:07 am

Lost92Bricks wrote:
Lebronnygoat wrote:How can you say that when Magic Johnson had one of the greatest playmaking seasons ever, and played way better against the Pistons than Jordan did, who Jordan also dropped against. Magic’s first 3 playoff rounds negate Jordan’s one round vs the 1988 Cavs with injured Harper.

He got outplayed by John Stockton

Box score watching.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by OhayoKD » Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:28 am

AEnigma wrote:
Lost92Bricks wrote:
Lebronnygoat wrote:How can you say that when Magic Johnson had one of the greatest playmaking seasons ever, and played way better against the Pistons than Jordan did, who Jordan also dropped against. Magic’s first 3 playoff rounds negate Jordan’s one round vs the 1988 Cavs with injured Harper.

He got outplayed by John Stockton

Box score watching.

Yep:
Spoiler:
For Magic’s 17 tracked assists, I gave him 37 DTOs, 19 EDTOs, and a total of 3 ADAs giving Magic a total of 40 defenders affected; This also gives Magic per-assist rates of 2.2 defenders taken out, 1.1 extra defenders taken out, and 2.4 total defenders affected.

For comparison, over 13 tracked assists, the Bird-man had 16[/n] DTOs, 7EDTOs, and 9 ADAs for a total of 25 defenders affected and per-assist rates of 1.2 defenders taken out, .54 extra defenders taken out, and 1.9 total defenders affected.

Here is a record of how other players tracked with the current process fare(excluding EDTOs):

Spoiler:
By my count(stopped my tracking at 5:35 for those who want to vet), of Stockton's first 10 assists:
4 saw him take out multiple defenders out of a play
1 resulted in a wide-open shot

Of Magic's first 10 assists:

6 saw him take out multiple defenders
4 resulted in wide open looks


Just like with Nash(near the top of page), checking the tape shows us that Magic's assists create more than Stockton's do. Magic is drawing extra defenders and creating openings as a ball-handler in a way Stockton just doesn't.

And on that note, while this specific watch was centered around assists, Magic was clearly dealing with more defenders on his scores than Stockton was and, all else being equal; scoring in plays where you are dealing with multiple defenders is harder to replace and less teammate-dependent than scoring in plays in single coverage(or wide open).


Magic is an outlier this far over pretty much everyone(including bird and mj) so far in terms of assist-quality. I plan on doing this more thoroughly for Stockton putting up the same assists does not mean he played as well never mind outplayed him
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by One_and_Done » Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:25 am

OhayoKD wrote:Kola's ballot:
1988

Spoiler:
Magic Johnson - (Grain Version) Yuki
Grade: Special
Hoop Expansion - Showtime Slaughter

Ball Techniques:
+ Perfect Passer
+ Bom-Ba-Ball handling; Reverse-Ball Technique - Turbo Transition; Maximum Output - Layup Limbo
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Floor-General - Special Grade

Baller Vow:
+ In Exchange for playing with Kareem, Magic must retire early and let MJ three-peat

Key Chapters:
+ Los Angeles School wins conference cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Pistons - Bucket Getter - Grade 1


Hakeem Olajuwon - (Grain Version) Maki
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Center Cemetery

Ball Techniques
+ Russellian Remix
+ Post-up Nightmare; Reverse Ball-Technique - Dream Shot; Maximum Output - A Three-Man’s Dream
+ A Dreamer’s Postseason - 2 arc use
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 Grade 3
+ Rim-Protection - Special Grade
+ Stoppah - Special Grade; Reverse Ball-Technique - Running Robinsons - 1 arc use
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Baller Vow
+ In exchange for dominating Micheal Jordan in Baller-Battles, Hakeem may never face MJ in a battle that matters

Key Chapters:
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Mavericks - Bucket-Getter - Special Grade


Micheal Jordan - (Grain Version) Kashimo
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Collinearity Merchant

Ball Techniques:
+ Cursed Chucker
+ Mid-Range Kitchen
+ Gifted Gambler; Reverse Ball-Technique; Fastbreak Frenzy
+ Bucket-Getter - Special Grade
+ Stoppah - Grade 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a fake DPOY, Jordan can only win playoff games with Pippen

Key Chapters:
- Hooper Burnout vs Pistons - Bucket-Getter - Grade 1

Isiah Thomas - (Grain Version) Kokichi Muta
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion (Incomplete) - Dreamteam Doldrums

Ball-Techniques:
+ Crossover Conjuring
+ Bucket-Getter Grade 3
+ Floor-General Grade 2

Key Chapters:
+ Detroit School makes Conference Cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry against Boston School
+ Hoop Flash Flurry against Los Angeles School

Larry Bird - (Grain Version) Todo
Grade: 1
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ Precision Passer
+ Idle Cardio
- Useless Helper
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 3 4
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 3
+ Floor-General - Grade 1

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a successful non-player NBA career, Bird will have to deal with a chronic back condition while he plays

I don't understand how mail in ballots are supposed to work in a project ostensibly driven by discussion rather than outcomes. If I disagree with Kola, whoever that is, how do I debate his views? I can't. That's problematic, regardless of the contents of his posts.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by OhayoKD » Wed Nov 13, 2024 7:36 am

One_and_Done wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:Kola's ballot:
1988

Spoiler:
Magic Johnson - (Grain Version) Yuki
Grade: Special
Hoop Expansion - Showtime Slaughter

Ball Techniques:
+ Perfect Passer
+ Bom-Ba-Ball handling; Reverse-Ball Technique - Turbo Transition; Maximum Output - Layup Limbo
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 3
+ Floor-General - Special Grade

Baller Vow:
+ In Exchange for playing with Kareem, Magic must retire early and let MJ three-peat

Key Chapters:
+ Los Angeles School wins conference cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Pistons - Bucket Getter - Grade 1


Hakeem Olajuwon - (Grain Version) Maki
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Center Cemetery

Ball Techniques
+ Russellian Remix
+ Post-up Nightmare; Reverse Ball-Technique - Dream Shot; Maximum Output - A Three-Man’s Dream
+ A Dreamer’s Postseason - 2 arc use
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 2 Grade 3
+ Rim-Protection - Special Grade
+ Stoppah - Special Grade; Reverse Ball-Technique - Running Robinsons - 1 arc use
+ Board-Bringer - Grade 1

Baller Vow
+ In exchange for dominating Micheal Jordan in Baller-Battles, Hakeem may never face MJ in a battle that matters

Key Chapters:
+ Hoop Flash Flurry vs Mavericks - Bucket-Getter - Special Grade


Micheal Jordan - (Grain Version) Kashimo
Grade: Special 1
Hoop Expansion - Collinearity Merchant

Ball Techniques:
+ Cursed Chucker
+ Mid-Range Kitchen
+ Gifted Gambler; Reverse Ball-Technique; Fastbreak Frenzy
+ Bucket-Getter - Special Grade
+ Stoppah - Grade 2

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a fake DPOY, Jordan can only win playoff games with Pippen

Key Chapters:
- Hooper Burnout vs Pistons - Bucket-Getter - Grade 1

Isiah Thomas - (Grain Version) Kokichi Muta
Grade: 2
Hoop Expansion (Incomplete) - Dreamteam Doldrums

Ball-Techniques:
+ Crossover Conjuring
+ Bucket-Getter Grade 3
+ Floor-General Grade 2

Key Chapters:
+ Detroit School makes Conference Cross-over
+ Hoop Flash Flurry against Boston School
+ Hoop Flash Flurry against Los Angeles School

Larry Bird - (Grain Version) Todo
Grade: 1
Hoop Expansion - None

Ball Techniques:
+ Precision Passer
+ Idle Cardio
- Useless Helper
+ Bucket-Getter - Grade 3 4
+ Rim-Protection - Grade 3
+ Floor-General - Grade 1

Baller Vow:
+ In exchange for a successful non-player NBA career, Bird will have to deal with a chronic back condition while he plays

I don't understand how mail in ballots are supposed to work in a project ostensibly driven by discussion rather than outcomes. If I disagree with Kola, whoever that is, how do I debate his views? I can't. That's problematic, regardless of the contents of his posts.

The majority of voters here aren't debating anything. And the majority of those debating aren't making changes to their ballot on the basis of debate. Unless you think discussion is only meaningful if it leads to changed votes, there's value to be derived from the discussion of ballots irregardless of direct engagement... which the vast majority of voters here have refused to partake in, even when quoted.
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by One_and_Done » Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:17 am

1) Jordan
2) Magic
3) Barkley
4) Bird
5) K.Malone

HM: Hakeem

Jordan was the best player in the league at this point. His team didn't do as well as the other guys listed here because it wasn't as good. I see no reason to hold that against him.

Magic pretty clearly in the #2 spot, continuing to be the greatest offensive player of his era and being the engine of the Lakers high octane offence.

I don't think Bird was in his prime anymore by 88, as I've elaborated on elsewhere. His offense was sublime as usual, but between his foot and back injuries he couldn't move like he used to and it hurt the Celtics. Barkley had surpassed him by this point. I don't really care that the Sixers missed the playoffs this year; that team around him was utter garbage, and the East was a tougher conference than the West.

5th is the Mailman, who really came into his own this year. His ability to lead the Jazz to an incredible 7 game defeat vs the Showtime Lakers was impressive.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1987-88 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by OhayoKD » Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:58 am

penbeast0 wrote:LA had the best RS record and wins the title again, Magic Johnson clearly a POY candidate. Boston is second but Bad Boy Pistons (tied for 3rd in RS) beat them in ECF. McHale has one of his best years, but Boston's star is still Larry Bird giving McHale more single coverage than any comparable post star I can remember. Bird's playoffs v. Detroit were unimpressive as Adrian Dantley played good defense (yup, said it) on him while supersub Dennis Rodman had his minutes cut. Isiah Thomas took the offensive lead in that series, shooting the ball roughly half again as much as Dantley did after they had shared the scoring load to that point.

The Lakers closest competitors out west were Denver, Dallas, and Portland. Aging Alex English continued to lead Denver in scoring but Fat Lever was a walking triple double threat. In Dallas, Aguirre was their primary scorer but two way guards Derek Harper and Rolando Blackman were just as important if not more. And Portland was led by Clyde Drexler.

Other winning teams were Chicago (Jordan won MVP), Atlanta (Nique scored 30 a game), Utah (Stockton finally got to start alongside Karl Malone), Houston (gave up on the Twin Towers and traded Sampson), Seattle, Milwaukee (Moncrief's breakdown hurt), and Cleveland.

Jordan led the league in scoring, Michael Cage in rebounding, and Stockton in assists. Box score compilation stats all had Jordan on top and he got the DPOY as well.

POY:
1. Magic Johnson -- [b]Jordan had the best individual year
but Magic led his team to a stronger Ortg (2nd to Boston) and a title as well.
2. Micheal Jordan -- like with Wilt, the best individual player in the league may not be the greatest winner . . . yet. Cue Phil Jackson in the wings.
[/b]

Did he? Box composites would tell us Jordan was much better throughout his prime...and yet
Magic Johnson(3x MVP) 1980-1991
Lakers are +0.8 without, +7.5 with

Micheal Jordan(5x MVP) 1985-1998
Bulls are +1.3 without, +6.1 with

Hakeem(1x MVP) 1985-1999
Rockets are -2.8 without. +2.5 with

Of course, a common knock on Hakeem is his consistency as an RS performer, but even over longer periods, he looks quite good. IIRC, if you use 10-year samples...

Hakeem takes 33-win teams to 48 wins, 15 win lift
Jordan takes 38-win teams to 53.5 wins, 15 win lift
Magic takes 44-win teams to 59


Magic is the standout looking at team-improvement by net and a match by games(and if you insist on putting heavy weight in what happens a few minutes per-game, marginally advantaged in on/off this year). Hakeem looks like a rival even disregarding his superior track-record as a post-season elevator, the kg-on-the-timberwolves esque off-court situation, and coaching which didn't really take full advantage of what he offered until he was 30.

With that in mind, I don't think people should value Jordan's edge in box-composites beyond their willingness to argue the frame-work these composites use holds greater explanatory value than ones that would include inputs like these:
Spoiler:
But his style was still high-risk, high-reward, and his defensive error rates were on the high side, landing in the 17th percentile for the heart of his career. His highlights are impressive, but he bled value at times.

For instance, in the 1991 Finals, Jordan slowed the Magic Johnson train by picking him up in the backcourt, preventing him from building a head of steam. In the low-post, Chicago constantly doubled Magic, and although Jordan did a solid job bodying him up at times, he also struck out on a number of steal attempts:

...

For Magic’s 17 tracked assists, I gave him 37 DTOs, 19 EDTOs, and a total of 3 ADAs giving Magic a total of 40 defenders affected; This also gives Magic per-assist rates of 2.2 defenders taken out, 1.1 extra defenders taken out, and 2.4 total defenders affected.

For comparison, over 13 tracked assists, the Bird-man had 16[/n] DTOs, 7EDTOs, and 9 ADAs for a total of 25 defenders affected and per-assist rates of 1.2 defenders taken out, .54 extra defenders taken out, and 1.9 total defenders affected.

...

Here is a record of how other players tracked with the current process fare(excluding EDTOs)


Mchale - 16
Walton - 11
Parish - 7
Bird - 6

Houston overall
Hakeem - 21
Sampson - 9

Houston pre-ejection

Hakeem - 15
Sampson - 9

Overall

Hakeem - 21
Mchale - 16
Walton - 11
Sampson - 9
Parish - 7
Bird - 6


...



Distribution went

Oakley 13
Corzine 9
Pippen 8
Grant 6
Jordan 3
Sam Vincient 2
Rory Sparrow 1
Elston Turner 1

(Doesn't add up exactly to 40 as there were a couple splits)

Some notes:
-> rim-load only tracks usage, not efficacy, I'd say Oakley was very effective, Corzine not, Pippen Grant and Vincient were also effective, Sparrow and Turner not.
-> Jordan was very effective the one time the other team drove, but the first 2 times he's credited as the paint-protector were quick possessions where the other team didn't really try to drive.
-> Oakley had the most possessions where if I gave secondary credit he'd also be the #2, Grant and Pippen would come after


For those struggling to imagine how it would be possible for Jordan to be less productive/impactful while maintaining such a nice advantage in certain box-composites, I think any of the 4 things tracked above, all of which are entirely or nearly entirely excluded from the outputs many voters have been providing with all of their ballots, offer viable explanations.

There's also the matter of Jordan weighing his own numbers over wins more than anyone else likely to get votes:
Spoiler:
Since switching to point guard for the Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan has become statistic conscious. He has started checking with statisticians to see how close he is to a triple-double. He had a string of seven consecutive triple-doubles broken Friday night.
"The guys at the scorer's desk let me know what I need," Jordan said.
So, too, do the Bulls' assistant coaches.
"They keep reminding me when I get back to the huddle," Jordan said. "They say, 'You need three more of this. You need four more of that.' "


falcolombardi wrote:> “Michael was better at getting people to do whatever he wanted,” Pippen wrote. “I saw it over and over, from the first training camp in 1987 to the last victory rally in 1998. Here’s how it worked: Say I deflected the ball and tapped it over to him. I should get credit with the steal, right? Nope.

> More often than not, the steal went into his column on the stat sheet, and I could do nothing about it.

> “One night, a scorekeeper came into the locker room after the game to hand the stat sheets to Phil Jackson and the coaching staff. The sheet breaks down the points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots, turnovers, and so on for everyone who played the game. I couldn’t believe the look the guy gave Michael: ‘See MJ, we take care of you.’ No wonder in the nine full seasons we played together, he averaged more steals than me in every year except two.”

While pippen is not a unbiased party, it seems like players at the time perceived the score keeping biases in favor of the biggest star

Mind you, even if Jordan was the most impactful player on the court in 88 (I'd say the evidence solidly favors Magic), it's fair to ask if being the least interested in winning of the top players had a negative effect on his teammates.


All that said, even if you are resolute that PER or PIPM means something here, I very much hope you are equally resolute that fake data should not be factored in:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2387572

Spoiler:
AEnigma wrote:Unexpectedly thorough article. Although it does not significantly change how I assess the season — I have always felt his box production grossly exceeded his real impact — I was most interested by the year-by-year road splits:

Image

Will say that regardless of blatant home-cooking, Jordan was still more actively focusing on defence than in the surrounding years. However, this does make me softer on 1988 being his true defensive peak, because without actively watching every game (and recording those active impressions), even those of us who try to avoid being tied to box production may defer at least somewhat to a box score outlier season.

Colbinii wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:> “Michael was better at getting people to do whatever he wanted,” Pippen wrote. “I saw it over and over, from the first training camp in 1987 to the last victory rally in 1998. Here’s how it worked: Say I deflected the ball and tapped it over to him. I should get credit with the steal, right? Nope.

> More often than not, the steal went into his column on the stat sheet, and I could do nothing about it.

> “One night, a scorekeeper came into the locker room after the game to hand the stat sheets to Phil Jackson and the coaching staff. The sheet breaks down the points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots, turnovers, and so on for everyone who played the game. I couldn’t believe the look the guy gave Michael: ‘See MJ, we take care of you.’ No wonder in the nine full seasons we played together, he averaged more steals than me in every year except two.”

While pippen is not a unbiased party, it seems like players at the time perceived the score keeping biases in favor of the biggest star


This tracks.

Pippen Steals 1992: 1.9/G
Pippen Steals 1993: 2.1/G
Pippen Steals 1994: 2.9/G
Pippen Steals 1995: 2.9/G
Pippen Steals 1996: 1.7/G

jalengreen wrote:The interesting thing about this case is that the 1988 Bulls' opponents did not turn the ball over at a noticeably greater rate in Chicago

- In home games for the Bulls, their opponents averaged 15.0 turnovers per game

- In away games for the Bulls, their opponents averaged 14.6 turnovers per game

The difference is that more of those turnovers were counted as steals in Chicago specifically.

Image

At home, 64.6% of the Bulls' opponents turnovers were recorded as steals. That's the 8th highest figure recorded in 1116 team seasons from 1986-2024. On the road, just 52.8% of the Bulls' opponents turnovers were recorded as steals, which is average. Huge difference; in fact, the largest ever.

Possible explanation would be that the Bulls' opponents just happened to commit fewer dead ball turnovers and more live ball turnovers when playing in Chicago. But the sample of video footage analyzed by Tom Haberstroh is supportive of the alternative, less generous hypothesis.

So while home cooking was probably widespread, the 1988 Bulls stand out historically as the most "suspicious" team when you break it down with a focus on steals (blocks, assists are different conversations).

homecourtloss wrote:
Currently Jordan has the 5th, 7th, 9th, 14th, 15th highest single season BPMs. If stocks are de-inflated, it’s likely he might not have any seasons in the top 10 and mostly pushed out of the top 15.

Not that BPM means all that much, especially DBPM. Jokic has been a runaway DBPM leader for three straight years, i.e., a 99.9th percentiler in DBPM, which doesn’t match other defensive where he is in other defensive impact metrics though he does provide value with DRebing and his offense that reduces live ball transitiom opportunities for opponen5s.


I find no one bringing up these all in ones for Jordan even making mention of them being bolstered by unprecedentedly biased scorekeeping (alongside reports Jordan was giving scorekeepers financial gifts) pretty concerning.

Getting back to the vote, I don't think there's much to support the notion that Jordan was the best "individual" this season, and if anything I think the real debate should be Jordan vs Olajuwon, not Jordan vs Johnson. Magic sweeps using unbiased data, translated better in the playoffs(as did Hakeem) this year, is more proven in terms of replication across contexts, and is a significantly advantaged as a leader. (For anyone disputing that last point, I encourage them to examine how Magic and Jordan's teams did when one isolates for them or other common denominators like their coaches/co-stars).

Also not a fan of inconsistent argumentation:
One_and_Done wrote:
Lebronnygoat wrote:How can you say that when Magic Johnson had one of the greatest playmaking seasons ever, and played way better against the Pistons than Jordan did, who Jordan also dropped against. Magic’s first 3 playoff rounds negate Jordan’s one round vs the 1988 Cavs with injured Harper.

Because Jordan is a better player? Magic has the benefit of a great supporting cast around him, which impacts how each performs.

Magic is better by the one peice of data you consistently spent the last 8 threads parading around for Bird while being massively advantaged in terms of "floor-game". Interesting how team success, impact, and the basketball trait you mention most have all stopped mattering again. You also still haven't addressed the fact that the Bulls SRS predicted a worse-record than their actual one in 1984 despite arguing the inverse(record is better than srs) meant the Bulls didn't tank.



Speaking of team success...

B-Mitch 30 wrote:Offensive Player of the Year
Player of the Year

1. Michael Jordan

Obviously the best offensive player and best defensive guard in the league wins this.

2. Magic Johnson

There were no real holes in Magic’s season, other than the fact he likely only won the Finals because of a bad foul call against Detroit.

3. Clyde Drexler

In some regards, Clyde was an even better all-around player than MJ, though obviously way worse as a scorer.

4. Karl Malone

Malone broke out this year, finally getting the hang of his free throw shooting, and actually having one of his better playoff runs.

5. Hakeem Olajuwon

Hakeem was great in the regular season and playoffs, but Houston lost in the first round.



Houston lost in the first round averaging 37 points while providing vastly more rim-protection(something you valued high enough to vote 31 minutes per game of Parish as 2nd in 1981)

Jordan meanwhile heroically lost in the second round on the back of a worse scoring performance (something so valuable we apparently should ignore actual results favoring playmakers to pretend Jordan was "obviously" the best offensive player) and 5 more regular season wins with that is empirically significantly better than Houston's was (Rockets were -4.3 over the prior 3 seasons without Olajuwon).

Yet one is first "obviously", and the other is 5th. I guess actually making your team better is less important than regular-season true-shooting?
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL

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