RealGM

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1988-89.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 18:00PM EST on Monday, November 18th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Contrarian votes can be and have been sincere, but they look a lot more sincere when you take the time to fully present your reasoning rather than transparently pretend nothing is amiss.

Doctor MJ wrote:The rules here are that you've got to use the same type of thinking for all 5 votes. I understand putting more thought into #1 than #5, but I don't want PJ Brown votes. Voters do Brown type votes to give a guy an honorable mention. Makes sense if people only care about who finishes 1st, but I've been clear that I want to measure more than that. I've been trying to encourage literal "honorable mentions" to serve that purpose, and I'd ask that people use that as the way they honor guys who did something special but who aren't actually a top 5 guy that year.

There is a significant difference between a properly justified and internally consistent contrarian vote, and a vote whose purpose is to undermine the project itself. Ballots which threaten to do the latter and derail project discussion via blatant vote manipulation are liable to be tossed. If it happens twice, the offending poster will be removed from the project.

Current Voter List

Probably voting Jordan again by a clear margin. Not sure after that, but with Bird dropping out of the top 5 players I suppose some order or Magic, K.Malone, Barkley and Hakeem.

1. Jordan

2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. K.Malone
5. Hakeem

Jordan finally started to get a half decent support cast this year. They were still young, and figuring things out in the RS, but by the playoffs they hit the accelerator and lost to a stacked Pistons team. I won't hold that against Jordan, who was the best player easily this year.

Magic continued to be the best offensive player of this period, and remains a worthy 2nd.

After that it's a bit less clear. I might flip Malone and Hakeem, but on balance when looking at the RS & PS I think Malone was maybe a little better. Barkley is closer to Magic than he is to the others. This was prime Barkley at close to his explosive best, but tragically shackled to absolute trash support casts.

Magic got injured in the Finals this year but he probably still gets #2 for me. Jordan of course the clear #1.

Barkley will almost surely get on my ballot and the other two spots I still haven't decided on. Hakeem, Malone, Ewing are my frontrunners for now.

OPOY

1.Magic Johnson. Still the best playmaker and passer in the league. 21.5 pp75 on +8.8 rTS%. Team rOrtg +6.

2.Michael Jordan. 30 pp75, +7.7 rTS%. Team rOrtg +1.3.

3.Charles Barkley. 24.1 pp75, +11.6 rTS%. Team rOrtg +5.2. KJ get’s a lot of credit here. And was close to being 3rd, but that Barkley efficiency, it’s a hard thing to go past.


DPOY

1.Hakeem Olajuwon. Combined 6 stocks from Hakeem. Anchored a top 4 defense.

2.Mark Eaton. Again, Utah were the #1 defense. And yes, Stockton and Malone were very good, but Eaton was the anchor. Great rim protection.

3.Larry Nance. Anchored the #2 defense in the NBA. Too many good Pistons, who all could have an argument for 3rd.


POY

1.Michael Jordan. +6.5 OPIPM, +1.41 DPIPM, +7.92 PIPM. 25.32 Wins Added. Gave the Pistons everything he could, with a team that was still juvenile. You can argue this is the start of Peak MJ.

2.Hakeem Olajuwon. 23.8 pp75, +1.5 rTS%. Team offense was bad. But Hakeem is starting to reach his peak defensively. He was fine offensively, but not great. +1.7 OPIPM, +4.73 DPIPM, +6.43 PIPM. 18.31 Wins Added.

3.Magic Johnson. +5.37 OPIPM, +0.58 DPIPM, +5.95 PIPM. 17.89 Wins Added.

4.Charles Barkley. +5.26 OPIPM, -0.18 DPIPM. +5.08 PIPM. 15.15 Wins Added.

5.Patrick Ewing. 21.6 pp75, +7 rTS%. Team rOrtg +3.3. Pretty good defense, top 5 DPOY if I extended it out from 3. +1.89 OPIPM, +2.96 DPIPM. +4.84 PIPM. 15.1 Wins Added.

Kola's Ballot:

Kevin Johnson will probably be overlooked because of later off-court problems but I think he has a top 5 case.
- Suns were #2 offense behind Lakers, #2 SRS overall, and dominated the first two rounds before losing to LA in conference Finals.
- Team fell from +7.0 to +0.8 without KJ over 90-92. He places above any other star besides Magic in Moonbeam's RWOWY for 89-93.
- 20/4/12 on 60% TS in regular season and 24/4/12 on 62% TS in playoffs. Usually a strong playoffs performer throughout his career.
- Skillset wise, KJ is pretty complete except for a 3pt shot which no other POY candidate has anyway. Best dunking PG in the league, elite handles, excellent playmaker, draws tons of free throws, shoots around 90% from the line (88 RS, 93 PO), and is above mid 40s from long 2s when tracking data is available.

In comparison with some other candidates,
- Malone/Stockton: A below league average offense despite playing together and got swept by a negative SRS team in first round.
- Barkley: Top 3 offense but bottom 2 defense. Also got swept in first round (albeit very close and by a better team)
- Ewing: Dropped from 23 ppg on 61% TS to 20 ppg on 54% TS in playoffs. Defensively, not near peak form as reflected in Knicks' FF splits and overall PO results (+2.4 relative defense).

KJ deserves an honourable mention, but tough to put him over the big 5.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Michael Jordan

The Bulls slid a bit from last year, despite MJ continuing to be a scoring machine and getting the best rebound and assist numbers of his career. In the playoffs however, Jordan had a legendary run, defeating the Cavs with his legendary shot, beating the number two seeded Knicks, and taking the undefeated Bad Boy Pistons to six games. This was arguably peak MJ, and certainly one of the best seasons in NBA history.

2. Charles Barkley

I was considering giving this to Magic, especially since the latter had to compensate for Kareem well and truly hitting the wall, but Barkley and the Sixers offense was just too good this season. Barkley finally got his turnovers under control, as the Sixers were 2nd in that percentage, 8th in eFG, and 4th in free throws per field goal attempt. The Lakers were better at offensive rebounding than the Sixers, though the latter were merely below average, being ranked 15th. That was also clearly not Barkley’s fault, as he led the NBA in offensive rebounds. The Sixers were swept in the playoffs, but Barkley’s stats in those games were excellent, as his worst performance was a 22 point 58.3% game one against the Knicks.

3. Michael Adams

Surprised not to see some more familiar names here? Adams set NBA history this year, becoming the first player to average over 6 three-point attempts per game. Before Adams, the most attempts per game were by him and Danny Ainge at around 4.5 per game. Besides becoming probably the first player to create a lot of spacing with the three, Adams averaged a respectable 49% from two, and he and Danny Schayes were the only starters on the Nuggets to score at above average efficiency, with Adams leading Schayes at 18.5 points per game to 12.8. Adams was also 2nd on the team in assists, and one of the best inch for inch rebounders ever, averaging nearly 3 a game for his career while being 5’10’’.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Bill Laimbeer

Laimbeer had good defensive numbers, leading the Pistons in rebounds and ranking 9th in the NBA, despite Dennis Rodman being the team’s sixth man. He was also 18th in blocks, but moreover, he created a lot of intangible impact with his ability to absolutely infuriate opposing players. Obviously, playing the way Laimbeer did crossed some lines, but it worked. The Bad Boy Pistons were one of the best and dirtiest defenses ever, and Laimbeer was their diseased heart and soul.

2. Larry Nance

As good as the Pistons were, the Cavaliers arguably had an even better defense, at least in the regular season. Nance was their best shot blocker and 2nd leading rebounder, and could get a steal if he needed to.

3. Manute Bol

The Warriors defense might actually be undersold by pure defensive rating here. They were 6th in eFG, had the 4th best turnover percentage of teams that were top 10 in the prior stat, and 9th in fouls per field goal attempt. Their defensive rebounding left a lot to be desired, but Bol clearly excelled at protecting the rim as the team’s sixth man, and NBA’s best shot blocker.

Player of the Year

1. Michael Jordan

Maybe the best all-around season for perhaps the best player the game has ever seen.

2. Charles Barkley

Barkley greatly improves on the biggest weakness to his game and shows up for the playoffs, even if it wasn’t enough to make a run.

3. Larry Nance

Nance was excellent offensively as well, and also showed up in the postseason, even if it wasn’t enough against the Bulls.

4. Bill Laimbeer

Laimbeer was also good offensively, and one of the first big men to shoot threes at a relatively high volume and percentage. Winning the championship this year also didn’t hurt.

5. Michael Adams

One of the most unique and experimental players in NBA history, Adams was the best three-point shooter in the league, and provided some of the best spacing a team could get in this era.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Mark Eaton
3. Patrick Ewing

Hakeem has his best defensive season thus far. Voters fail to recognise it because the Rockets play at a fast pace and accordingly are below average in opposing points per game. Eaton again anchors the league’s best defence (although the Warriors overwhelm the Jazz with their shooting). And Ewing has a strong defensive season of his own; results will be better under Riley, but 1988-90 is Ewing’s shot-blocking peak, and scheme and personnel do not make him individually worse than bigs with elite supporting personnel and/or smarter defensive schemes.

Speaking of shot-blocking, these three players are three of the top four in total blocks. The fourth is Manute Bol, who leads the league despite only playing 22 minutes per game. As stated earlier, I think it reflects negatively on a defender if they are only on court half the time — especially with my three ballot choices all setting career highs in minutes played. However, the defensive turnaround the Warriors had compared to what they were in 1988 without Manute, coupled with the defensive fall we see with the Bullets compared to 1988 with Manute, is a strong enough signal to be worth recognising as an honourable mention. He might have been the league’s most valuable defender per possession, but not by so much that it overcomes a substantial disparity in possessions played.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Kevin Johnson
3. Michael Jordan

Magic is in literal MVP form and pretty much as good as he was in 1987. This year he starts to incorporate threes into his offensive repertoire; returns are promising enough.

KJ is my pick for second-best point guard this year. He is one of the league’s three most voluminous passers, and although his scoring rate is closer to Stockton’s than it is to Magic’s, there is a clear willingness to take shots which I like to see. Among the best slashers in the history of the position: top ten in free throw per game in the regular season (and the shortest player in the top fifteen by several inches), and then top five in the postseason. The Suns are a +5 regular season offence (second only to the Lakers) and maintain that level of play en route to the conference finals. A lot of factors played into that — the addition of Tom Chambers, the addition of Dan Majerle, general improvement from a young team, etc. — but KJ was the primary driver (as LA Bird highlighted) and should be credited accordingly.

This is Jordan’s peak offensive value season — although I think he would probably be “better” in 1990 and 1991 if given the same role. The “point Jordan” stretch, as with all parts of his career, has been grossly exaggerated — but it is a nice signal all the same that Jordan could fill that role reasonably well when called upon to do so.

SideshowBob wrote:The Bulls saw their offense jump from +1.5 in 57 games to +2.8 in 24 games. We see a slight decline in eFG%, a 1.5% rise in ORB% (Jordan's ORB% remained constant at 5.5% before and after), a 1.7% decline in TOV%, likely a byproduct of Jordan's increased playmaking (15% increase in AST%), and a major upward shift in free throw rate, which can also be explained by Jordan's increased playmaking. We know he was a strong interior passer, and creating high percentage shots at the basket leads to less creation responsibility for the finisher (low TO%) and a stronger probability of drawing the foul. Further, Jordan himself saw his FTA/FGA rate jump up from .431 to .470.

Roster consistency is present amongst starters/key players. Pre-Archangel, of a possible 57 games, we've got Pippen in 49, Grant in 56, and Paxson in 46. Under the Archangel offense, of a possible 24 games, we get 23 from Pippen, 22 from Grant, 23 from Cartwright, and 21 from Paxson. There's clearly weak spacing though outside of Paxson, and the introduction of Craig Hodges obviously makes an impact here. In 20 games Pre-Archangel without Hodges, we see a +0.8 offense, but in 36 games Pre-Archangel WITH him, Chicago's rocking a +2.0 offense, with a slight upward shift in eFG%, but while almost sustaining the same ORB level.

In 13 games under the Jordan Archangel Offense, without Hodges, Chicago is able to sustain a +2.1 offense (33.9% ORB%). With one major floor spacer, and strong emphasis on crashing the offensive glass, ball-dominant Jordan is able to run a pretty decent offense. Throw Hodges into the mix for 11 games, and Chicago's offense jumps to +3.7 (almost elite). There is a huge jump in eFG% (47.0 ->51.5), and the torrid offensive rebounding pace dulls down (28.8%)

Jordan is on this ballot primarily for his scoring though, which is his career zenith in both regular season efficiency and postseason efficiency. Just does not quite translate to team-wide efficiency in the same way.

Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Kevin Johnson
5. Isiah Thomas

Isiah is an automatic inclusion; Dumars is a fine choice for Finals MVP, but Isiah was the team’s leader and best player, and he is the one who represents the relatively dominant champions. Yes, he is more like a top ten to fifteen player than a “real” top five player, but after the top three I assess pretty much everyone on an all-NBA level, which is not enough to just pretend that it does not matter who actually did what every player ostensibly sets out to do.

The Suns are similarly a top four team in both the regular season and postseason, and they are similarly led by KJ. I think KJ is the third-best guard in the league, and this year especially offers more than what Isiah is able to provide. I probably assess KJ as the league’s ~seventh “best” player this year, and he accomplished more than enough to jump into the top five on my ballot.

Hakeem is one of the three MVP talents in the league. Unfortunately, his overall season is a footnote. Not going to entertain him any lower when I think he is so much better than every other player, but also cannot entertain him any higher when Magic and Jordan are similarly excellent while leading contenders. Still, put him on the Knicks in place of Ewing, and I would expect a conference finals run at worst. (Might be different next year…)

Real contention comes down to Magic versus Jordan, and where I land on that is that both are better than they were in 1988, and Magic again had the overall more accomplished season (with Jordan’s top accomplishment, upsetting the Cavaliers, to me being on par with Magic sweeping the Suns). I am not going to penalise a player for being injured at a later date than anyone else. Yeah, Magic’s injury probably cost the Lakers a potential threepeat (with how Isiah was playing). But why would I penalise a Finals injury in favour of a player who did not even make the Finals? Because Jordan would somehow be immune to fluke injuries if he had advanced a round further? If Jordan had been injured after Game 3 against the Pistons, people would be swearing he was about to win the title; even now, the narrative is, “he got closer against the Pistons than anyone else did.” Well, after three games, the Pistons shut him down again. In three consecutive single-digit losses in Games 4-6, Jordan averaged 24.3/3.7/8.7 with 4.3 turnovers on 54.8% efficiency. Season over.

Magic meanwhile won MVP with a better regular season than in 1988 (it in turn seems relatively uncontroversial to say Jordan’s regular season was a step down from what it was in 1988) and swept his way to the Finals. The Lakers looked as dominant as they ever had been. Magic won more games than any non-Piston. 11-1 record in games he finished; make it 11-2 if you want to count Game 2, where the Pistons needed a furious fourth quarter comeback to erase the lead Magic had built for the Lakers. And then we throw that out because of a hypothetical where a different player might not have suffered a Finals injury had they made it that far? We are putting multiple first round exits over the guy who brought his team to the Finals? Come on now.

The most ridiculous aspect of this is in the last project, Magic was voted higher in 1990. Multiple people saw Magic losing to the Suns in the second round and said to themselves, you know what, that is worth more than sweeping the Suns in the conference finals — because at least this time you did not miss any postseason games with injury! His 1989 player share was closer to what it was in 1986 — 1-4 conference finals exit — than to what it was in 1990. What are these standards?

Magic was the top regular season player. Through the third quarter of Game 2 of the Finals, he was the top postseason player as well. To me, that makes him the Player of the Year. And if your stance is ever that a player would have been better off losing early, I think your stance is so completely divorced from the game that there is no possible reconciliation.

B-Mitch 30 wrote:5. Michael Adams

One of the most unique and experimental players in NBA history, Adams was the best three-point shooter in the league, and provided some of the best spacing a team could get in this era.

That's like saying Antoine Walker was the best 3pt shooter in the league because he shot the most.

Adams: 166-466 from 3 (35.6%)
Dale Ellis: 162-339 from 3 (47.8%)

I don't believe anyone thinks going an extra 4 for 127 makes Adams the better shooter. This has to be a troll, right?

Can anybody explain me why people consider Malone over Hakeem here? I understand that Hakeem didn't do much in the playoffs, so he shouldn't compete with MJ or Magic, but against Malone? What's Malone's case?

Not sure I posted this earlier but last year when I watched the 1989 Pistons-Bulls series to log MJ's plus minus, I also tracked his defense on Isiah. He was pretty impressive defending Isiah and the numbers bear it out. The Bulls' defense in general was quite effective on Isiah too but he was in much more hurt when Jordan was on him.



Here is the game-by-game breakdown of Isiah's scoring when defended by Jordan.

G1: 5 pts on 23.0 %TS (2/10, 1/2)
G2: 13 pts on 50.9 %TS (5/11, 3/4)
G3: 3 pts 30.7 %TS (1/4, 1/2)
G4: 6 pts on 39.3 %TS (1/5, 4/6)
G5: 7 pts on 33.5 %TS (3/10, 1/1)
G6: 10 pts on 42.1 %TS (4/11, 2/2)

As for Jordan, we also have his ON-OFF numbers for the PS.

Michael Jordan - 1989 Playoffs Net

ON: +3.6
OFF: -22.0
ON-OFF: +25.6

And just against the Pistons, broken down by offense and defense as well:

Michael Jordan - 1989 ECF

ON: 105.0 ORtg, 108.8 DRtg, -3.8 Net
OFF: 86.8 ORtg, 100.0 DRtg, -13.2 Net
ON-OFF: +18.2 ORtg, +8.8 DRtg, +9.4 Net

With Jordan ON, the Bulls had a +0.3 rORtg and a -2.0 rDRtg against Detroit. So MJ was holding the offense above water. It was my impression that his teammates really let him down in this series. He kept passing out and nobody could make open shots. As someone said, he averaged 24.3/3.7/8.7 with 4.3 turnovers and 54.8 %TS in the last three games but that's still +3.4 rTS and a better than 2:1 assist to turnover ratio. In Game 5, he had 21 potential assists (passes that led to open shots) but ended up with just 9 assists because his teammates shot really poorly. His defense on Isiah was also really good in Game 4 and Game 5 and solid in Game 6.

Djoker wrote:Not sure I posted this earlier but last year when I watched the 1989 Pistons-Bulls series to log MJ's plus minus, I also tracked his defense on Isiah. He was pretty impressive defending Isiah and the numbers bear it out. The Bulls' defense in general was quite effective on Isiah too but he was in much more hurt when Jordan was on him.



Here is the game-by-game breakdown of Isiah's scoring when defended by Jordan.

G1: 5 pts on 23.0 %TS (2/10, 1/2)
G2: 13 pts on 50.9 %TS (5/11, 3/4)
G3: 3 pts 30.7 %TS (1/4, 1/2)
G4: 6 pts on 39.3 %TS (1/5, 4/6)
G5: 7 pts on 33.5 %TS (3/10, 1/1)
G6: 10 pts on 42.1 %TS (4/11, 2/2).

Did you note down how much support in terms of help Jordan received guarding IT? Jordan matching nearly the same amount of blowby's as the rest of his team yet those possessions being more effective has me curious. I also think it's notable is getting more than half as many shooting fouls.

And I guess key context for all of this is the total possession number and how much time Jordan is the guy directly in front of Isiah.

1 Magic Johnson
2 Hakeem Olajuwon
3 Charles Barkley
4 Patrick Ewing
5 Micheal Jordan
Still the same top 2.


Another monster-two way carry job for another 45-win season. Not as awesome in the playoffs as last year but he’s the 2nd best player in the league
Jordan falls a step in the regular season and his penchant for missing passing windows rears itself in an unusually ugly way in 2 of 3 playoff series giving both Cleveland and New York much more life than they ever should have had. He’s also unusually reckless defensively, nearly fouling out with his season on the line vs Detroit. All this opens things up for Barkley and Ewing who perform very well in the regular season and the playoffs with help I wouldn’t deem as comparable to the 89 Bulls, now sporting multiple oakley-level defenders, and several solid passers and ball-handlers, leading to better results when the Bulls axe the point-Mj experiment. It’s also a bit of an indictment that the two games Jordan tries to do the most are the two games the Bulls lose the most handily. Great stats, but a step down in terms of actual impact.
I profiled Barkley who also plays unusually solid defense in the postseason this year last thread. But here is Ewing. Not yet at peak, but close. A phenomenal defender, sporting top 3 paint-protection and a terror to deal with for all but the most overpowering centers. He’s also a great scorer making 23 points at a clip of 60% true-shooting. It culminates in a sweep of a guy i’m putting above him, perhaps unfairly, and closer-than-it-should have been performance against Chicago, now starting to resemble their ultimate iterations (90/91 are alot closer to me than people say). The playmaking criticism is overblown. He draws doubles and will hit clear openings like any big. The Knicks just didn’t give him those targets.

LA Bird wrote:

B-Mitch 30 wrote:5. Michael Adams

One of the most unique and experimental players in NBA history, Adams was the best three-point shooter in the league, and provided some of the best spacing a team could get in this era.

That's like saying Antoine Walker was the best 3pt shooter in the league because he shot the most.

Adams: 166-466 from 3 (35.6%)
Dale Ellis: 162-339 from 3 (47.8%)

I don't believe anyone thinks going an extra 4 for 127 makes Adams the better shooter. This has to be a troll, right?

To elaborate on what I said in my post, the amount of threes Adams attempted provided additional value by forcing defenders to watch out for him from the line and creating space. Ellis was obviously more accurate, and overall, probably the best three-point shooter in the period between Bird's decline and Reggie Miller's ascension, but his lower volume of attempts creates way less spacing.

B-Mitch 30 wrote:To elaborate on what I said in my post, the amount of threes Adams attempted provided additional value by forcing defenders to watch out for him from the line and creating space. Ellis was obviously more accurate, and overall, probably the best three-point shooter in the period between Bird's decline and Reggie Miller's ascension, but his lower volume of attempts creates way less spacing.

Did the 2 extra 3PA/g in 89 really make that much of a difference?

Detroit is the clear best team in the league with the best RS record and winning the title in the PS. They have a good (7th) offense with Isiah having the ball in his hands and Dumars and Dantley/Aguirre providing more efficient scoring plus Laimbeer pulling opposing centers away from the basket to help Rodman's offensive rebounding. They have a better (3rd) defense with Laimbeer, Mahorn, and Rodman cheap shooting opponents for the Bad Boys rep while Dumars took on the opponents top guard. Seems more of a team effort, I don't know if any of them (Isiah, Laimbeer, Dumars) make my top 5.

Second best team was LA, though Cleveland tied their regular season record before flaming out in the 1st round v. the Bulls. LA is still Magic's team and has the best offense in the league even with reserve center Mychal Thompson getting more minutes/game than Kareem. Cleveland leads the league in SRS with the 2nd best defense. PF Larry Nance is their primary rim protector and defender; PG Mark Price the key to their offense. Another strong ensemble effort.

4 other teams won 50. Phoenix with Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers, NY with Patrick Ewing, Atlanta with Moses and Nique, and Utah with Stockton, Malone, and DPOY Mark Eaton. Milwaukee, Chicago, Seattle, Philly, Houston, Denver, Golden State, and Boston were all above .500.

The compilation stats have Michael Jordan as the top individual player in the league with Magic ranking 2nd in 3 and Barkley in 2. John Stockton is the consistent 4th best in these ratings, top 5 in everything but PER (7th).

Player of the Year:

1. Magic Johnson: Same debate, MJ for the individual numbers or Magic for leading the best team offense. Magic's team also went to the finals though Jordan did beat the #2/3 RS Cleveland Cavaliers.
2. Michael Jordan
3. John Stockton. This spot is far from clear but Stockton led Utah to competition despite their playing Karl Malone and Thurl Bailey as their de facto SF with Mark Iavaronni, backup center Mike Brown, and the forgotten (by me) Jose Ortiz filling more the PF role adding more bangers next to offensive nonentity Mark Eaton. Stockton also led the league in both assist and steals.
4. Hakeem -- For the defense
5. Barkley -- for the lack of defense

HM Kevin Johnson was another dangerous and explosive PG in a very strong field of them.

penbeast0 wrote:Detroit is the clear best team in the league with the best RS record and winning the title in the PS. They have a good (7th) offense with Isiah having the ball in his hands and Dumars and Dantley/Aguirre providing more efficient scoring plus Laimbeer pulling opposing centers away from the basket to help Rodman's offensive rebounding. They have a better (3rd) defense with Laimbeer, Mahorn, and Rodman cheap shooting opponents for the Bad Boys rep while Dumars took on the opponents top guard. Seems more of a team effort, I don't know if any of them (Isiah, Laimbeer, Dumars) make my top 5.

Second best team was LA, though Cleveland tied their regular season record before flaming out in the 1st round v. the Bulls. LA is still Magic's team and has the best offense in the league even with reserve center Mychal Thompson getting more minutes/game than Kareem. Cleveland leads the league in SRS with the 2nd best defense. PF Larry Nance is their primary rim protector and defender; PG Mark Price the key to their offense. Another strong ensemble effort.

4 other teams won 50. Phoenix with Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers, NY with Patrick Ewing, Atlanta with Moses and Nique, and Utah with Stockton, Malone, and DPOY Mark Eaton. Milwaukee, Chicago, Seattle, Philly, Houston, Denver, Golden State, and Boston were all above .500.

The compilation stats have Michael Jordan as the top individual player in the league with Magic ranking 2nd in 3 and Barkley in 2. John Stockton is the consistent 4th best in these ratings, top 5 in everything but PER (7th).

Player of the Year:

1. Magic Johnson: Same debate, MJ for the individual numbers or Magic for leading the best team offense. Magic's team also went to the finals though Jordan did beat the #2/3 RS Cleveland Cavaliers.
2. Michael Jordan
3. John Stockton. This spot is far from clear but Stockton led Utah to competition despite their playing Karl Malone and Thurl Bailey as their de facto SF with Mark Iavaronni, backup center Mike Brown, and the forgotten (by me) Jose Ortiz filling more the PF role adding more bangers next to offensive nonentity Mark Eaton. Stockton also led the league in both assist and steals.
4. Hakeem -- For the defense
5. Barkley -- for the lack of defense

HM Kevin Johnson was another dangerous and explosive PG in a very strong field of them.

I was about to question how anyone could have Ewing over Jordan, but then I saw this. Stockton was swept in the 1st round with HCA by a 43 win team. He wasn't even the best player on his team.

If the Jazz really had 2 MVP candidates and the DPOY, then 51 wins and a first round sweep was a horrific result, even if you are starting 2 G-Leaguers next to them (and Thurl Bailey and Griffiths were far from G-Leaguers, Bailey was a quite good in fact and in the era of 1989 him playing SF was fine.

tsherkin wrote:

B-Mitch 30 wrote:To elaborate on what I said in my post, the amount of threes Adams attempted provided additional value by forcing defenders to watch out for him from the line and creating space. Ellis was obviously more accurate, and overall, probably the best three-point shooter in the period between Bird's decline and Reggie Miller's ascension, but his lower volume of attempts creates way less spacing.

Did the 2 extra 3PA/g in 89 really make that much of a difference?

I believe so, yes.

One_and_Done wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:Detroit is the clear best team in the league with the best RS record and winning the title in the PS. They have a good (7th) offense with Isiah having the ball in his hands and Dumars and Dantley/Aguirre providing more efficient scoring plus Laimbeer pulling opposing centers away from the basket to help Rodman's offensive rebounding. They have a better (3rd) defense with Laimbeer, Mahorn, and Rodman cheap shooting opponents for the Bad Boys rep while Dumars took on the opponents top guard. Seems more of a team effort, I don't know if any of them (Isiah, Laimbeer, Dumars) make my top 5.

Second best team was LA, though Cleveland tied their regular season record before flaming out in the 1st round v. the Bulls. LA is still Magic's team and has the best offense in the league even with reserve center Mychal Thompson getting more minutes/game than Kareem. Cleveland leads the league in SRS with the 2nd best defense. PF Larry Nance is their primary rim protector and defender; PG Mark Price the key to their offense. Another strong ensemble effort.

4 other teams won 50. Phoenix with Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers, NY with Patrick Ewing, Atlanta with Moses and Nique, and Utah with Stockton, Malone, and DPOY Mark Eaton. Milwaukee, Chicago, Seattle, Philly, Houston, Denver, Golden State, and Boston were all above .500.

The compilation stats have Michael Jordan as the top individual player in the league with Magic ranking 2nd in 3 and Barkley in 2. John Stockton is the consistent 4th best in these ratings, top 5 in everything but PER (7th).

Player of the Year:

1. Magic Johnson: Same debate, MJ for the individual numbers or Magic for leading the best team offense. Magic's team also went to the finals though Jordan did beat the #2/3 RS Cleveland Cavaliers.
2. Michael Jordan
3. John Stockton. This spot is far from clear but Stockton led Utah to competition despite their playing Karl Malone and Thurl Bailey as their de facto SF with Mark Iavaronni, backup center Mike Brown, and the forgotten (by me) Jose Ortiz filling more the PF role adding more bangers next to offensive nonentity Mark Eaton. Stockton also led the league in both assist and steals.
4. Hakeem -- For the defense
5. Barkley -- for the lack of defense

HM Kevin Johnson was another dangerous and explosive PG in a very strong field of them.

I was about to question how anyone could have Ewing over Jordan, but then I saw this. Stockton was swept in the 1st round with HCA by a 43 win team. He wasn't even the best player on his team.

If the Jazz really had 2 MVP candidates and the DPOY, then 51 wins and a first round sweep was a horrific result, even if you are starting 2 G-Leaguers next to them (and Thurl Bailey and Griffiths were far from G-Leaguers, Bailey was a quite good in fact and in the era of 1989 him playing SF was fine.

Darrell Griffith was indeed bad; he had a ts% of .504, a turnover % greater than his assist %, and was the team's weak defender. Bailey was a reserve, though he played more minutes than the rotating pool of starters quite often. As I said, the starters were Iavaroni, Brown, and Ortiz. And if you believe at all in spacing, a front line where Karl Malone is your spacing starter is a bit problematic.