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Of course an overdone thread but I was thinking about this.

I would say that I realize that probably I put only all time great players but I just think that those ATG players give you more or less what you would need from lesser high impact good fit players while also having some other greater qualities in terms of talent and scoring.. So I don't have a defined on but this is my idea. I think just mentally, even tho it's not a rule, I was brought to put 5 players at their 5 respective traditional positions.

My frontcourt is PF) Kevin Garnett and C) Hakeem (or DROB). As far hakeem/drob, drob gives me a bit more length and even better rim protection and maybe runs the floor even better, but I see Hakeem as more fluid and fitting offensively and I think I'm more inclined towards him, but it's really close.

-The idea is that I'm losing that overpowering giant like shaq, kareem or wilt that gives you all those easy points at the basket but: 1) I have a not that much worse post scorer in hakeem 2) I still have incredible rim protection and post defence, and its not like hakeem is gonna get manhandled by these guys in the post 3) I need that post creation less with the rest of the starting five I'm going to have 4)I'm adding all that versatility that those two have as far as passing, shooting, putting the ball on the foor, running, and ofc all the things they can do on defense. I don't have players that can be picked up apart on the perimeter or that clog the floor.

-I'm also losing something compared to a more modern frontcourt (you know, even tho I don't have shaq or wilt I still have a twin tower set) but I think I created the best possible defensive pairing, I don't think I want to lose this physical dominance for some more 3 point shooting and offensive versatility considering the creation and firepower I will have in other positions

At SG I know I have Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan just gives me so much as far as defense, length, athleticism, attacking the rim, midrange, offball movement, and of course unstoppable scoring, shot creation. I didn't really consider anybody else because MJ is more or less as good as anybody at his position defensively, especially with reduced offensive load. I lose a lot of 3 point shooting, but I just get so much more in other aspects compared to alternatives like reggie ray klay.

Now my reasoning at PG: (the idea of)Jerry West/steph curry. So. You want to have Steph Curry. He's just the best option offensively and if you don't have him you just lose so much irrepleacable value. In an all time starting five even more considering those usually lack a bit of 3 point shooting and have plenty ball handlers and shot creators where he's slightly sub ideal. At the same time, if you have the option to put any players in history in your starting five you are not happy putting in a player who lacks ideal size and defense. Curry lacks size and athleticism and can be attacked on defense especially in a match against another fantasy team. So, there is the option to put other all time great two way PGs like payton, jason kidd, walt frazier. Somebody like payton is an option I don't laught at. Payton+jordan defensive pairing and payton can still put some points up, punish smaller defenders, while dishing the ball and being a great floor general. I prefer what steph gives me tho. I also don't overlook magic. I wouldn't mind a 6'8 pg and he also gives me incredible things offensively but there are better options to me.
Who's the only player (I can think of) that gives me the elite shooting that I want and can be my main playmaker and ball handler? Jerry West. Jerry West is a fantasy team player dream. All time great guard defense, goat level shot creation, elite shooting. The only catch is that he's a 60s player and not a big, so in my view he doesn't hold up if just teleported to nowadays. His player archeytpe does, but not him just taken and put in the court. Either way, the idea of him is the player that I want. I have incredible size and defense with him and MJ to add to Hakeem and KG, I have elite shooting as none of those 3 are known as great 3 point shooters, I have a full time pg/ball handler, and I also add another incredible scorer.
Some may say that MJ and West overlap. They do overlap in terms of qualities, but I don't believe this cause any negatives to my team, and there's nothing that I feel I'm lacking because of this.

So I'm at:

PG) (the idea of?) Jerry West/ if not, Steph Curry
SG) Michael Jordan
SF) ?
PF) Kevin Garnett
C) Hakeem/Drob

Now at SF. I'll do this considering (the idea of)Jerry at PG. My 4 are really the best defenders i can think of putting. My scoring is good. In the context of fantasy team kg/hakeem is subideal as far as scoring but west/jordan. My shooting is decent but not more than that. It's better than other fantasy teams as we have west who was one of the best shooters of his era, kg one of the best middies of his era, hakeem good midrange shooter, both we have to think could extend their range to the 3 point line in todays basketball. In this context I think we should also assume west would be a elite 3 point shooter. Jordan goat 3 point shooter but lacks 3 point shooting. However our shooting is a 6 or 7 out of 10. Other teams could have curry, ray allen, dirk for ex.
This is the hardest for me. First I try to think of all time great wing defenders, my favourite type of players. Kirilenko, metta, iguodala, marion. None of them are good shooters. I'm not going to have a bad shooter on the floor that can't score. I was trying to look into shooters but yeah, I can't find a good enough combination of shooting and defense into these non stars..

who i can consider.. pg, havlicek, lebron, durant, bird, leonard. i like havlicek but i exclude him cause even tho hes a defender and good shooter he lacks some length and i have better shooters in my options. my idea was kd because he's just the best for these situations with his shooting ability, and also i like his tools on defense in a team that is already so good defensively. however, i realized i don't want 3 6'10+ players in my team, they would dance too much defensively, and i need more dribbling ability on offense. kd is not a good dribbler. excluding bird for similar reasoning.
leonard/pg. mh. pg could be a slightly better spot up shooter, gives be slightly better ball handling and length. could be the better 3 and d role player in a team of monsters. and leonard also slightly overlaps with mj and west. leonard tho is a better scorer for what is worth, and i value a lot him being a better defender and more able to play like a dawg, phisicality, hustle plays. like yeah, pg is good and, like a kg, a all time starting five fit, but good enough to be in the n.1 starting five i can think of? i feel like leonard would have higher defensive impact, hit his shots, and if he wants he can score too.

Now the big question. do i leave lebron out? lebron gives me some problems, being a less accurate shooter. imho not as good of a defender as leonard or some others (still extremely good tho). could stop the ball a bit and just too many main creators.
at the same time lebron would be the best creators, could hit other guys, unstoppable rim scorer, cuts, size. off ball defense etc. a lot. i'll cut it short, i just dont like putting a not great shooter at this point. im not inclined towards that. and as leonard also to me provides significantly more value as far as defense, hustle, dawg playing, while also being a good scorer and having the right size i want i choose him.

PG: (the idea of) Jerry West/open to steph curry
SG: Jordan
SF: Leonard (second option lebron)
PF: Kevin Garnett
C: Hakeem (second option drob)

This team is amazing. all defensive powerhouses. good scoring, good 3 point shooting. size at every position. nothing is attackable, i dont have a big center to pick apart on the perimetr. i dont have non shooters clogging the paint but still our bigs wont be bullied. nobody will be bullied. visually west jordan leonard overlap but if we analyze it's not a negative.
The worst part is ball handling but im alright, west is good enough to be full time ball handler, jordan is alright, leonard and kg can for bring it up the floor. i feel like this is better than 99% of fantasy teams i see.

I agree with a lot of your thinking. When doing this, there is a big advantage to picking players who were freakish two-way anchors, because they no longer have to carry the load and can ramp up their motor on both sides of the ball. Also, those players would normally require a double team, but that would no longer be viable with four other major threats. So, I think the modern idea of three-point spacing is diminished, and it becomes more of a matchup game. To be sure, shooting and passing are still critical, but a smart motion offense will yield high scoring results. I do think the defense is more additive than offense, so that is what I would build around.

In the frontcourt, I'm not going to choose between Olajuwon and Robinson. I'm going to pick both, and they are interchangeable at PF and C. Their ability to protect the rim at a high level, while also defend large swaths of the court and move with smaller players, would just be massively impactful. On offense, you can easily integrate them into a system and exploit mismatches. Their skillset is essentially that of giant wings in addition to traditional post scoring; being able to face up, cut and finish, shoot in the midrange, pass, set screens, and dominate the offensive boards. Too quick for bigger defenders and too big for smaller defenders.

But I'm also going to select Garnett! And I'm going to liberate him from playing in the post, he'll play the SF and get to be the perimeter player he always wanted to be. Defensively, he'd be a terror harassing the opposing wings and quarterbacking with all of that rim protection behind him. His primary role offensively will be to set screens, be an elite connective passer, and space the floor-with clear instructions to trade most of his long twos for threes.

I'm selecting Michael Jordan. Not much to say other than that he'll be able to be super aggressive on defense, and that he'll also have instructions to trade many of his long twos for threes. Of course, he was also a mismatch at SG. The mismatches continue with LeBron James being the PG. Again, not a whole lot to say. He is a better spot up three-point shooter, so I'll ask him to restrict his pullups. He's going to have so many lob threats it won't be funny. Defensively, he'll have more energy to make the lives of opposing guards very difficult.

I assume all players would be in their peak form.
For the TLDR people, it's:

PG: LeBron James
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Kevin Garnett
PF: Hakeem Olajuwon
C: David Robinson

Mine is:
PG- Steph Curry
SG- Michael Jordan
SF- Scottie Pippen
PF- Tim Duncan
C- David Robinson

It's 2024 and people are still buying "Lebron unportable" lol

PG: Curry
SG: Kawhi (DPOY Spurs version)
SF: Bird
PF: James
C: Jokic

Why this, I think the GOAT playmaking capacity will be way too high pairing with C&S outlets. I picked this specific version of Kawhi because he was near the top of the league rocking well over 40%+++ on the wings. He has the most boring role but I'm banking on the superior playmakers to make plays that are just too hard to cover.

Now this is a modern approach but its such a dynamic setup.

Ball goes way quicker than anyone can move or defend... So my logic is why not pair the best of all time altogether that synergies incredibly well

Bron has actually shot 36% from 3 in the last 11+ seasons of regular play.

Super funny and complete fantasy but a hilarious play that would happen is Jokic brings it up dumps into Bron inside ready for the trail FU 3 or a complete switch

Curry gets 2 meatshields above that happen to be GOAT tier playmakers for their size

... Then Bird is best connective passer ever. Curry burns up the track getting in on a platter every time or a literal tank steaming down in Bron. Heck you could just Tetris the ball with those two alone

Capacity wise I do think having all 3 playing would create never before seen offensive play. Basketball version of ticky tack Barcelona, 2014 Spurs on steroids type stuff

kdawg32086 wrote:Mine is:
PG- Steph Curry
SG- Michael Jordan
SF- Scottie Pippen
PF- Tim Duncan
C- David Robinson

This wouldn't be my exact group I don't think, but I agree with your decision to take some players who don't care how many shots/touches they get and can be super effective on nights they have a limited offensive role.

Duncan and Pippen should probably be on everyone's teams because of this and their elite defensive impact.

Death lineup, replace Iggy with LeBron

PG: Baron Davis
SG: Kawhi Leonard
SF: Draymond
PF: Rasheed Wallace
C: Anthony Davis

Steph Curry (by far the greatest shooter ever with unmatched spacing at his position and elite off-ball effectiveness)

Michael Jordan (self-explanatory)

LeBron James (self-explanatory)

Larry Bird (underrated player as far as scalability; elite shooter and rebounder who makes quick decisions and doesn’t need the ball to be effective)

Wemby in a couple years (could also see arguments for Jokić, Shaq, and David Robinson, who I believe could have goat-level defensive impact as a quinary scorer)

Good luck beating that team.

edit:

double-posted

Ol Roy wrote:I agree with a lot of your thinking. When doing this, there is a big advantage to picking players who were freakish two-way anchors, because they no longer have to carry the load and can ramp up their motor on both sides of the ball. Also, those players would normally require a double team, but that would no longer be viable with four other major threats. So, I think the modern idea of three-point spacing is diminished, and it becomes more of a matchup game. To be sure, shooting and passing are still critical, but a smart motion offense will yield high scoring results. I do think the defense is more additive than offense, so that is what I would build around.

In the frontcourt, I'm not going to choose between Olajuwon and Robinson. I'm going to pick both, and they are interchangeable at PF and C. Their ability to protect the rim at a high level, while also defend large swaths of the court and move with smaller players, would just be massively impactful. On offense, you can easily integrate them into a system and exploit mismatches. Their skillset is essentially that of giant wings in addition to traditional post scoring; being able to face up, cut and finish, shoot in the midrange, pass, set screens, and dominate the offensive boards. Too quick for bigger defenders and too big for smaller defenders.

But I'm also going to select Garnett! And I'm going to liberate him from playing in the post, he'll play the SF and get to be the perimeter player he always wanted to be. Defensively, he'd be a terror harassing the opposing wings and quarterbacking with all of that rim protection behind him. His primary role offensively will be to set screens, be an elite connective passer, and space the floor-with clear instructions to trade most of his long twos for threes.

I'm selecting Michael Jordan. Not much to say other than that he'll be able to be super aggressive on defense, and that he'll also have instructions to trade many of his long twos for threes. Of course, he was also a mismatch at SG. The mismatches continue with LeBron James being the PG. Again, not a whole lot to say. He is a better spot up three-point shooter, so I'll ask him to restrict his pullups. He's going to have so many lob threats it won't be funny. Defensively, he'll have more energy to make the lives of opposing guards very difficult.

I assume all players would be in their peak form.
For the TLDR people, it's:

PG: LeBron James
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Kevin Garnett
PF: Hakeem Olajuwon
C: David Robinson

I like this approach and my team is very similar. I went:

PG: LeBron James
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Larry Bird
PF: David Robinson
C: Hakeem Olajuwon

DRob and Hakeem is arguably the best twin-tower defensive duo you can have. Russell and Wilt were before my time. If another team used Shaq + Wilt, they can still put up some resistance while making them work on the other side. If they're going up against modern small-ball bigs like KD+Draymond or even Lebron+AD, they still have the footwork to guard the perimeter and switch. DRob is also someone who doesn't mind to defer despite being able to be a first option in spurts. He's the perfect "hussle" big on this team. Lebron + Jordan on the wings and/or backcourt is nigh unstoppable considering that Lebron is like an upgraded Pippen already.

That leaves the only glaring weakness is 3-point shooting...but as mentioned, with so much talent, this team wouldn't need the ridiculous spacing that Steph brings. Larry Bird can fill that void while still providing size, solid team defense, excellent passing and BBIQ. He's also arguably one of the greatest off-ball players of all time along with KD. That tipped the scales for me over KG despite his superior defense. I also chose him over Kawhi largely due to his superior passing and rebounding. Bird would provide better ball movement as we already have several ISO scorers. Steph would also be attacked much more defensively than Bird would be. Steph would either get into foul trouble early or just give up too many baskets guarding Lebron, MJ or Bird on every possession. He'd have to be on fire the entire game (which he can be) to justify staying on the floor.

A possible, but unlikely counter would be something like:

PG: Steph Curry
SG: Dame
SF: Michael Jordan
PF: Wilt
C: Shaq

Superior 3-point shooting while the twin towers are occupied in the paint. Bird has to pick his poison on who to guard. This team obviously has more flaws but could cause problems. I'd still have faith in my team since Steph and Dame on defense would be horrible.

Mogspan wrote:Larry Bird (underrated player as far as scalability; elite shooter and rebounder who makes quick decisions and doesn’t need the ball to be effective)

If by underrated you mean possibly the most overrated, yes.

I actually prefer Kawhi than Pippen if going for the two way wing that's DPOY quality.

All teams are going to have monopoly on ball, Pippen has length, Kawhi is the strongest wing as far as I can tell he's brolic).

That combined with top of the table C&S shooting I do think he pips Pippen in terms of fit.

As all time as everybody is you still need X amount of space, X amount of quality on ball, synergy, versatility, scoring creation etc.

I also prefer a one off all time defensive center rather than 2 especially if neither are great at facilitating if going down that route.

OhayoKD wrote:

Mogspan wrote:Larry Bird (underrated player as far as scalability; elite shooter and rebounder who makes quick decisions and doesn’t need the ball to be effective)

If by underrated you mean possibly the most overrated, yes.

??? Bird is definetly the best connective player I see outside of Bron.

There's one ball at the end of the day the starting 5 isn't going to all have 30% usage across the board.

Watch 84-86 Bird full games to get an idea rather just looking at a stats sheet. Dude was a monster everywhere.

jojo4341 wrote:

Ol Roy wrote:
That leaves the only glaring weakness is 3-point shooting...but as mentioned, with so much talent, this team wouldn't need the ridiculous spacing that Steph brings. Larry Bird can fill that void while still providing size, solid team defense, excellent passing and BBIQ.

Steph is a much better playmaker than Bird is. Turns out being able to handle the ball kind of matters:
[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2405443
[/url]

He's also arguably one of the greatest off-ball players of all time along with KD.

He is...nowhere close:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2393479&hilit=ada&start=40

Also hilarious suggesting the guy with more break-down than positive plays on a team where he was rarely asked to guard anyone and simulations wasn't asked to protect the rim the way a power forward should is less exploitable defensively.

DCasey91 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:If by underrated you mean possibly the most overrated, yes.

??? Bird is definetly the best connective player I see outside of Bron.

There's one ball at the end of the day the starting 5 isn't going to all have 30% usage across the board.

Watch 84-86 Bird full games to get an idea rather just looking at a stats sheet. Dude was a monster everywhere.

[/quote]
We did. Turns out the person looking at a stat sheet was you (per usual):
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2393479&start=20

Bird is at the bottom of tracking in assist quality, tied with pre-rudy hakeem in creation rates over several years of playoff tracking from lebronny, and creates very little using full games by falco's system. No one has yet to show tape indicating he is a high-quality creator or a ihgh-volume one.

Taking him over an actual volume off-ball creator because of "usage" is laughable. As is implying he's a more connective player than any number of legitimate defensive anchors who provide plenty of value without the offense(much easier to find offensive-slanted co-stars) and don't need to be aggressively hidden from opposing offenses with extremely unique personell (like mchale who handles the ball letting bird play as a pf on offense, and can protect the rim allowing Bird to play like a sf on defense).

Unless you jusr prefer taking inferior players, there is zero reason to take Bird

Bad Bart wrote:PG: Baron Davis
SG: Kawhi Leonard
SF: Draymond
PF: Rasheed Wallace
C: Anthony Davis

Rasheed pulls one of his stupid stunts, Dray punches him, and somehow they injure all 3 of the others just from the emanations of the penumbra of the altercation.

Despite my last post (sorry) and assuming healthy and willing prime . . .

Frazier
Moncrief
Kawhi
Bobby Jones
Bill Russell

Smartest defense of all time, with ATG point of attack at two points plus great stocks from both bigs, all 5 move the ball well, enough scoring with Frazier, Moncrief, and Kawhi all around 20 ppg plus 15 from Bobby Jones (on near the best fg% in the league with a lot of corner moves he showed when playing and hopefully a developed corner 3 to go with it) and Russell as a facilitator scoring mainly off offensive rebounds and open interior looks.

There are only so many shots to pass out but there is always a need for ATG defenders.

penbeast0 wrote:Despite my last post (sorry) and assuming healthy and willing prime . . .

Frazier
Moncrief
Kawhi
Bobby Jones
Bill Russell

Smartest defense of all time, with ATG point of attack at two points plus great stocks from both bigs, all 5 move the ball well, enough scoring with Frazier, Moncrief, and Kawhi all around 20 ppg plus 15 from Bobby Jones (on near the best fg% in the league with a lot of corner moves he showed when playing and hopefully a developed corner 3 to go with it) and Russell as a facilitator scoring mainly off offensive rebounds and open interior looks.

There are only so many shots to pass out but there is always a need for ATG defenders.

I think both Pippen and Lebron offer more defensively tbh (and by impact data, adjusted or raw) Lebron kind of clears Leonard). especially with the the other players you've picked, think the advantage in terms of paint-protection outweighs the man defense

It's ironic that a certain poster points to stats and models then assumes the individual hes arguing only looks at those.

It's also hyprocrtitical.

Grain not worth a salt.

With the amount of space Bird + Jokic + James is such an awesome combination ill happily take.

DCasey91 wrote:It's ironic that a certain poster points to stats and models then assumes the individual hes arguing only looks at those.

I assume nothing. I just know I can defend what I'm using and you are incapable of defending what you are.

Hence why you never do.

If you think bird is a reasonable pick here your eyetest is worthless.

Hope that helps