Replace Murray with Kyrie. How many titles?

[rand]

Let's say instead of rookie Jamal Murray joining the Denver Nuggets in 2017, it was rookie Kyrie. How many titles would Denver have won so far? Assume Kyrie has the same health and development he did historically.

[durantbird]

I'm not sure about their contending status pre KCP and Gordon which were crucial additions. But at least last year I think they are favorites.

Anyhow difficult to assume they win every single year with full squad given how deep is the league and how good are other teams like Boston.

[Mos_Heat]

The same

[Pelly24]

I think they win two or three, even with Kyrie's varied weird problems. They probably aren't amplified as much in a smaller market. The COVID-mandatory vax thing doesn't happen. The thing is, Jokic has never played with a player who's a consistent all-nba-level guy.

Just having someone who can keep the team from falling apart without him on the court would be huge.

Murray has literally been streaky his entire career, even though he was incredible in 2023.

[Statlanta]

1, Both are injury prone so it makes no difference.

[penbeast0]

Murray had a great run in their title year, better than an average Kyrie year and with the exception of last year, has been a playoff riser.

In 2019, Kyrie was bad in the playoffs for Boston
In 2020, he was refusing to play for non-basketball reasons
21 and 22, Denver lost badly in the 1st and 2nd round. I don't think Kyrie is enough to change that to a title.
In 2023, Kyrie didn't make the playoffs, though he played well for Dallas. Still, I wouldn't assume he would have the kind of year that Jamal Murray had but he's a better player usually so there's a chance they still win that title.
In 2024, Denver lost to the TWolves 4-3, who then lost to the Mavs. Murray was bad, so Kyrie may be enough to get them past Minnesota but hard to assume they'd beat Dallas (though without Kyrie in Dallas . . . ok, if we count Dallas as weaker then yeah, on the other hand someone else probably makes the WCF is Luca has no second star) and Boston.


So, 0-2 titles, call it one, maybe zero. More is unlikely.

[Peregrine01]

Murray had a great run in their title year, better than an average Kyrie year and with the exception of last year, has been a playoff riser.

In 2019, Kyrie was bad in the playoffs for Boston
In 2020, he was refusing to play for non-basketball reasons
21 and 22, Denver lost badly in the 1st and 2nd round. I don't think Kyrie is enough to change that to a title.
In 2023, Kyrie didn't make the playoffs, though he played well for Dallas. Still, I wouldn't assume he would have the kind of year that Jamal Murray had but he's a better player usually so there's a chance they still win that title.
In 2024, Denver lost to the TWolves 4-3, who then lost to the Mavs. Murray was bad, so Kyrie may be enough to get them past Minnesota but hard to assume they'd beat Dallas (though without Kyrie in Dallas . . . ok, if we count Dallas as weaker then yeah, on the other hand someone else probably makes the WCF is Luca has no second star) and Boston.


So, 0-2 titles, call it one, maybe zero. More is unlikely.

I think you underestimate how easy it is for an on-ball guard to play with Jokic. We're talking about probably the best player an on-ball guard can ever hope to play with. The guy sets monster screens that erases defenders, shoots like Dirk so defending big men are drawn out of the paint, has the GOAT hands and the greatest finishing ability basketball has ever seen free-throw line and in. On top of it all, he's among the GOAT passers the game has ever seen and is unselfish enough to the point that he prefers to see his co-star go off while he facilitates in the background. Jokic is probably the best guy to ever have a two man game with. Hell, even Russ is looking like a competent offensive player this year racking up >10 assists a night as a starter.

As for the question, I think they have a legit chance in 2022. They played the Warriors pretty well in the last 3 games despite featuring a backcourt rotation of Monte Morris, Will Barton and Facundo Campazzo. And I think they win it all in 2024 given how trash Murray was.

[OhayoKD]

Jokic has never had a deep playoff run without Murray playing kyrie+ basketball. Not sure how people are getting to answers of >2 here.

[EmpireFalls]

Is this hypothetical taking into account whether Kyrie gets fed up and leaves for his own team ? or whether he falls into some anti vax rabbit hole and refuses to play home games ? or just gets plain injured and misses the playoffs (like he did in 2015, 2018, 2021, etc.) ?

Everyone knows what Kyrie can do when he’s on the court (although even that is perhaps mythologized and overrated). It’s how insanely unreliable he is off the court (and his chequered injury history) that makes predictions like this impossible.

[Cavsfansince84]

Pretty hard to do hypotheticals with perhaps the most unpredictable player in nba history(probably more so than even Rodman and a few others). Also have to take into account which years he was injured and whether young Kyrie is more about his numbers or winning. So I'd guess they put it all together once but even that is not a given.

[Alatan]

Murray had a great run in their title year, better than an average Kyrie year and with the exception of last year, has been a playoff riser.

In 2019, Kyrie was bad in the playoffs for Boston
In 2020, he was refusing to play for non-basketball reasons
21 and 22, Denver lost badly in the 1st and 2nd round. I don't think Kyrie is enough to change that to a title.
In 2023, Kyrie didn't make the playoffs, though he played well for Dallas. Still, I wouldn't assume he would have the kind of year that Jamal Murray had but he's a better player usually so there's a chance they still win that title.
In 2024, Denver lost to the TWolves 4-3, who then lost to the Mavs. Murray was bad, so Kyrie may be enough to get them past Minnesota but hard to assume they'd beat Dallas (though without Kyrie in Dallas . . . ok, if we count Dallas as weaker then yeah, on the other hand someone else probably makes the WCF is Luca has no second star) and Boston.


So, 0-2 titles, call it one, maybe zero. More is unlikely.

And what was the reason Denver played poorly in 21 and 22? Could it be that a certain player taking up a max salary slot was not playing and the team featured the legendary backcourt of Will Barton, Monte Morris, Facundo Campazzo and Austin Rivers?

[Alatan]

Denver wins 2+.
They win 23 and 24 while having a shot in 21 and 20.

[ShotCreator]

I want to take this time to note how, even in a year like 2017 that isn't known as a bad Kyrie year in the playoffs, he deliberately sabotaged lineups with his defense and his lack of passing against Indiana and Toronto. He wasn't good until he faced Boston in the ECF. And that just pure shot making while hot.

Deron Williams built more Chemistry with LeBron than Kyrie had, and he did it in less than a full season.

Kyrie's weird behavior did not start in the summer of 2017. He was already out of sorts on the court and doing chemistry disrupting things with his play style. In retrospect him demanding a trade isn't even surprising.

[dcstanley]

Murray had a great 2020, was sidelined for the next two playoffs, had a great 2023, and then a subpar 2024.

I don't think Kyrie reaches the heights Murray reached in both the 2020 and 2023 playoffs but he doesn't have as poor of a showing in 2024 and likely doesn't miss two straight postseasons.

I would say 1 with a better chance at 2 than they've had with Murray.

[Cavsfansince84]

I want to take this time to note how, even in a year like 2017 that isn't known as a bad Kyrie year in the playoffs, he deliberately sabotaged lineups with his defense and his lack of passing against Indiana and Toronto. He wasn't good until he faced Boston in the ECF. And that just pure shot making while hot.

Deron Williams built more Chemistry with LeBron than Kyrie had, and he did it in less than a full season.

Kyrie's weird behavior did not start in the summer of 2017. He was already out of sorts on the court and doing chemistry disrupting things with his play style. In retrospect him demanding a trade isn't even surprising.

He also hated the idea of taking a backseat to LeBron so I don't think he'd like doing it with Jokic either. He'd need to assert the idea that he was a co #1 with either guy because that's just how he is. At least until he gets into his early 30's and can accept the idea of someone being better than him on offense.

[One_and_Done]

Playing against the KD/Curry Warriors? Zero.

[bigboi]

Lol, 0 or the same. And we’d hear about how Kyrie is this and that. Kyrie underperforms in the playoffs and is always injured

[bigboi]

I'm not sure about their contending status pre KCP and Gordon which were crucial additions. But at least last year I think they are favorites.

Anyhow difficult to assume they win every single year with full squad given how deep is the league and how good are other teams like Boston.

They were the favorites last year too preseason lmao.

[zero rings]

I think the Nuggets still win the title in 23, and likely pick up one more in 21, 22, or 24. Murray didn’t play in the 21 and 22 playoffs, and he was so bad in 24 that he might as well not have played. I think we’re the West favorite in each of those years with Kyrie.

More importantly, we’d be well positioned to win going forward. This whole situation with Murray is depressing and could ruin one of the best primes we’ve ever seen.

[Woodsanity]

Anyone saying zero is purely delusional. Remember Murray missed two playoffs and was god awful for the most recent one. 2+ minimum.