RealGM

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 2000-01.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 12:30PM EST on Sunday, December 29th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Contrarian votes can be and have been sincere, but they look a lot more sincere when you take the time to fully present your reasoning rather than transparently pretend nothing is amiss.

Doctor MJ wrote:Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

The rules here are that you've got to use the same type of thinking for all 5 votes. I understand putting more thought into #1 than #5, but I don't want PJ Brown votes. Voters do Brown type votes to give a guy an honorable mention. Makes sense if people only care about who finishes 1st, but I've been clear that I want to measure more than that. I've been trying to encourage literal "honorable mentions" to serve that purpose, and I'd ask that people use that as the way they honor guys who did something special but who aren't actually a top 5 guy that year.

There is a significant difference between a properly justified and internally consistent contrarian vote, and a vote whose purpose is to undermine the project itself. Ballots which threaten to do the latter and derail project discussion via blatant vote manipulation are liable to be tossed. If it happens twice, the offending poster will be removed from the project.

Current Voter List

Definitely comes down to Shaq vs Duncan for me.

I know the Lakers beat the Spurs in 01, but here is what Duncan’s 01 wing rotation did in the Lakers series that year. I am not making these numbers up, these are actual, real stats.

- Derek Anderson, only able to play 2 games because he was so hurt, put up 2ppg and 2rpg on 170. TS%, with an Ortg of 39. That is not a typo. Played 20mpg, and his Drtg of 126 undersells how bad his D was.
- Post Kidney disease Sean Elliot, able to play 3 games, averaged 1.3ppg, 1.7rpg, on 202. TS%. Also an Ortg of 39. Played 19mpg.
- Age 35 Avery Johnson, not that he was ever good, was playing 22mpg and putting up 6.3ppg, 2.3apg on 383 TS%. Ortg of 77.
- Terry Porter, too old to play D or do much of anything except throw a good inbounds pass, was playing 24.4mpg, and scored 6.3ppg on a FG% of 345. And a 3pt% of 167.
- Old man Dan Ferry, who started 2 games and played 26mpg, scored 3.5ppg on 467 TS%. He was one of their better wing contributors, except he couldn’t play any D and could do nothing but shoot open 3s. Ortg of 88.

That’s 5 of their top 8 guys in mpg. The others were D.Rob (shot 440 TS% this series, while only playing 29mpg), Duncan, and Antonio Daniels who played an absurd 42mpg, that’s how desperate they were for bodies (ADs Drtg of 121 was the worst of every rotation player except Derek Anderson). That is the worst wing rotation I have ever seen on a modern contender. EVER. Not only trash on O, but every one of their Drtg’s was horrible (as was their D in reality). Duncan and D.Rob were at 105 and 108, and every other Spur I just named was in the 113-126 range (mostly around 117).

Between D.Rob falling off alot, and D not showing up on the stat sheet as clearly, I might still vote Duncan over Shaq. Duncan's support cast was just terrible, even if he'd been healthy D.Anderson is a pretty overrated player. People only know his name because he was hurt this year.

I'm focussing on this series alot because if we pretend it didn't exist, Duncan is the runaway winner based on the RS (where Djoker admits he'd be clear MVP), and the first 2 rounds of the playoffs where he did enough to still be #1. So my question has to be how much can I really blame Duncan for his team getting swept, when his support cast in that series looks historically bad.

Ultimately, I think what Duncan did to get the Spurs to 58 wins and the WCFs with a bad support cast was a bit more impressive. Shaq put up better numbers in the WCFs, but that's easier to do when the team around you is so much better.

As for Kobe, he went off in 1 series where the guys covering him on the wing were trash. Otherwise, there's nothing about his season to indicate it was comparable to Shaq or Duncan. Kobe is a guy who would post 'numbers', but those numbers would not lead to the team winning much. From 00 to 07 the Lakers were 135-137 in games Kobe played and Shaq did not, whereas Shaq from 00 to 04 would lead the Lakers to a 60 win pace in games Kobe missed. His floor raising just isn't there. If we looked at just 00 to 04 for Kobe, it's still a sub-500 number, from memory it's like 23-26.

Ahead of Kobe, I'm more interested in KG, who is my clear #3, and T-Mac who carried a team absolutely destitute of talent to the playoffs. Prime T-Mac was like a bigger, stronger, more talented version of Kobe who actually could floor raise. I considered Dirk, but his playoffs was just too sub-par. For me #5 is between Kobe and Mailman. Honestly, Malone has a better case than people believe. He was the engine to a 53 win team with not much talent around him, and was hugely impactful on both ends even though he doesn't provide the rim protection you want from a big. For now I'll go with Kobe, pending the arguments here and having time to mull it over.

EDIT: on careful re-evaluation, I'm switching my 5th place. As I indicated, I was already wavering on K.Malone's exclusion, but there were also 2 guys I hadn't really considered who I should have; R.Allen and Mutombo. I have ultimately gone with Mutombo. I didn't give appropriate consideration to the degree to which he was the real driver of the Sixers success. Per100 he put up 15-21 in the RS, with a 97 Drtg (and 95 while on Philly). The Sixers were a team who won because of their D, not Iverson's inefficient shooting, and Deke was the foundation of that. In the playoffs he played more minutes and was even more impactful, with 18-18 per 100, and upped his efficiency. He actually had an insane 122 Ortg in the playoffs, and still had the team's best Drtg (except Raja's Bell, who barely played). Drtg can be unreliable, but I feel comfortable Mutombo was the best defensive player in the league this year other than maybe Duncan and KG.

In today's league, Kobe is the more valuable player, but in 2001 the impact of a rim protecting 5 like Deke probably exceeded it.

1. Duncan
2. Shaq

3. KG
4. T-Mac
5. Mutombo

HM: Kobe

Aways fun to see you pick and choose when you care about artificial box metrics and when you do not.

By the way, Duncan’s regular season “Ortg / Drtg” was 106 and 94, respectively. Shaq’s was 114 and 101, respectively. In the postseason, Duncan’s was 104 and 96, while Shaq’s was 113 and 96.

Kobe has a legit case for #1 here. He was better than Shaq against the Spurs which was the real Finals and really apart from Game 1 vs. Philly hardly had any bad game in the whole PS. I'll almost surely have Shaq/Kobe in the first two spots, Duncan at #3 then we'll see who else makes the ballot.

OPOY

1.Shaquille O’Neal. 28.5 pp75 on +5.6 rTS%. Team rOrtg +5.4. Playoffs scoring volume and efficiency dropped slightly.

2.Ray Allen. 22.6 pp75 on +9.2 rTS%. Team rOrtg +5.8. Playoffs volume went up slightly as did efficiency.

3.Kobe Bryant. 27.3 pp75 on +3.4 rTS%. Post season numbers very similar, slight drop in volume.

DPOY

1.Tim Duncan. Slightly better than D Rob, and Spurs were again a great defense.

2.David Robinson. I wanted to reward a Laker, as they were by far the dominant defensive team in the playoffs, but I couldn’t get there with Shaq. Can’t give it to Mutombo, because even though Philly was a defensive team, they weren’t all that great in the playoffs defensively. But ultimately, I’m going David Robinson. He was still a force defensively, and the Spurs defense was good (did I mention that already?)

3.Shawn Marion. Phoenix were also the equal top defense in the regular season. I can’t give KG or Ben Wallace a spot, despite carrying their squads solo.

POY

1.Shaquille O’Neal. +5.23 OPIPM, +1.27 DPIPM. +6.51 PIPM. 21.62 Wins Added. Was good in the regular season, but had a terrific playoffs.

2.Tim Duncan. +2.33 OPIPM, +4.78 DPIPM. +7.12 PIPM. 24.12 Wins Added. Was arguably the best in the regular season. 23 pp75 on +1.8 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +3.6.

3.Kobe Bryant. +3.54 OPIPM, +0.57 DPIPM, +4.1 PIPM. 15.89 Wins Added. Great scoring, good playmaking. Good defensively.

4.Kevin Garnett. +1.87 OPIPM, +1.74 DPIPM. +3.61 PIPM. 14.4 Wins Added. 21.8 pp75 on +1.3 rTS%. Playoff efficiency spiked nearly 4%, though 4 game sample. Team rOrtg of +2.2. Fantastic defense, which could be argued for as top 3. Terrific playoffs vs Duncan.

5.Ray Allen. BIg offensive engine on a league leading Bucks squad. +4.87 OPIPM, -0.61 DPIPM, +4.26 PIPM. 18.09 Wins Added. Beats out Vince and T-Mac, who have good arguments for top 5 also.

One_and_Done wrote:Definitely comes down to Shaq vs Duncan for me.

I know the Lakers beat the Spurs in 01, but here is what Duncan’s 01 wing rotation did in the Lakers series that year. I am not making these numbers up, these are actual, real stats.

- Derek Anderson, only able to play 2 games because he was so hurt, put up 2ppg and 2rpg on 170. TS%, with an Ortg of 39. That is not a typo. Played 20mpg, and his Drtg of 126 undersells how bad his D was.
- Post Kidney disease Sean Elliot, able to play 3 games, averaged 1.3ppg, 1.7rpg, on 202. TS%. Also an Ortg of 39. Played 19mpg.
- Age 35 Avery Johnson, not that he was ever good, was playing 22mpg and putting up 6.3ppg, 2.3apg on 383 TS%. Ortg of 77.
- Terry Porter, too old to play D or do much of anything except throw a good inbounds pass, was playing 24.4mpg, and scored 6.3ppg on a FG% of 345. And a 3pt% of 167.
- Old man Dan Ferry, who started 2 games and played 26mpg, scored 3.5ppg on 467 TS%. He was one of their better wing contributors, except he couldn’t play any D and could do nothing but shoot open 3s. Ortg of 88.

That’s 5 of their top 8 guys in mpg. The others were D.Rob (shot 440 TS% this series, while only playing 29mpg), Duncan, and Antonio Daniels who played an absurd 42mpg, that’s how desperate they were for bodies (ADs Drtg of 121 was the worst of every rotation player except Derek Anderson). That is the worst wing rotation I have ever seen on a modern contender. EVER. Not only trash on O, but every one of their Drtg’s was horrible (as was their D in reality). Duncan and D.Rob were at 105 and 108, and every other Spur I just named was in the 113-126 range (mostly around 117).

Between D.Rob falling off alot, and D not showing up on the stat sheet as clearly, I might still vote Duncan over Shaq. Duncan's support cast was just terrible, even if he'd been healthy D.Anderson is a pretty overrated player. People only know his name because he was hurt this year.

The Spurs got swept, with an average margin of 22.5 points per game. I think it goes without saying that it takes a lot of players having a bad series to get destroyed that thoroughly. Obviously the difference there couldn’t possibly have *just* been that Shaq played better than Duncan, so I think you’re making a point that is really obvious (i.e. players on a team that got utterly destroyed in a series didn’t play well in that series).

You seem to be trying to use this one series (which was only 4 games) to make a broader argument about the Spurs supporting cast though. And that seems like a pretty dubious argument to me—as we might expect for any argument that’s keyed in on 4 games. If you did the same exercise you just did for that Lakers series but instead did it for the two prior rounds against the Mavs and Timberwolves, you’d find something very different. For instance, in the Mavs series, the 8 guys on the Spurs with the most minutes besides Duncan had a total TS% of 59.1% (for reference, Duncan’s TS% in the series was 53.9%). That was a +7.7% rTS% from Duncan’s supporting cast! The supporting cast struggled more offensively against the Timberwolves, but the supporting cast still scored more efficiently in that series than Duncan did, and all had very good DRTGs (in a series that the Spurs won with great defense).

Meanwhile, of course, the team did very well in the regular season, putting up the second highest SRS that the Spurs ever got during Duncan’s prime (behind only 2007). Obviously, Duncan was a significant driver of how good they were, but this was a good season for the team even compared to other years where Duncan was at his best, so that can’t be all of it. The rest of the team actually played very well that season! Illustrating this, in RS minutes without Duncan and without the garbage-time non-playoff-rotation guys (Walker, Dial, Newble, Scott, and Jackson), the Spurs outscored opponents by 13.1 points per 100 possessions (and even if we add playoffs to the sample too, it’s still +7.6 per 100 possessions). The sample size there isn’t high, so I wouldn’t take too much from that, but it does at least provide another data point, showing that the Spurs rotation guys did well that year.

Basically, I think if you want to say Duncan’s supporting cast was bad in the Lakers series and that he therefore shouldn’t get too much blame for how badly the Spurs did against the Lakers, then that seems like a reasonable point. But if you want to use the team’s performance in the Lakers series to suggest that Duncan’s supporting cast was awful all along, then I think that’s pretty clearly not correct.

1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kobe Bryant
3 - Kevin Garnett
4 - Shaq
5 - Allen Iverson

1st place should be Duncan? Doesn't seem like he had that much help in 1999 and now Drob just looks worse but the Spurs still win almost 60 games and his stats are better than 99 when everyone voted for him and everyone said his defense got better after. He loses but his stats look pretty close to shaq with 2 more assists and 2 less points and he's a much better defender right? Also Idk what to think of OneandDone's opinioins on players but he's not wrong about the minutes. If all of Duncan's teammates have some injury issues and are playing alot less it's honestly just impressive to me he's maybe still outplaying the guy I think most people say was the best in the world? I think KG might have outplayed him again like 1999 since his true shooting is higher and his assists are higher but was Duncan's team really that much better? You can't win more than 1 game in 99 or 2001?

The Spurs series being the real finals is a good point and I guess of that Kobe really has to get the credit since he goes like 33/7/7 and has the best true shooting. Kobe also has better rs stats and he's actually playing more minutes so I feel like he's probably the best player for La that year? Like honestly if you go like 16-1 maybe you should be 1st. It's weird they win less than the Spurs though.

I know AI shouldn't have been MVP and the east is weak but he still makes the final and he scores 48 and steps over ty lue to be the only guy to get a win over Kobe and Shaq. Like real talk we can say it wasn't the real finals but Sixers were the only team to not get swept and it's because of Iverson. His true shooting is kind of horrible though and idk he actually was the best player in the other series before.

Feel like maybe i should put Dirk somewhere but I don't have room.

Defensive Player of the Year
1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kevin Garnett
3 - Dikembe Mutombo

Offensive Player of the Year
1 - Kobe Byrant
2 - Shaq
3 - Dirk

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Defensive Player of the Year
3 - Alonzo Mourning

Mourning played 300 total minutes this season.

AEnigma wrote:

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Defensive Player of the Year
3 - Alonzo Mourning

Mourning played 300 total minutes this season.

Uh okay. Who would you pick?

Djoker wrote:Kobe has a legit case for #1 here. He was better than Shaq against the Spurs which was the real Finals and really apart from Game 1 vs. Philly hardly had any bad game in the whole PS. I'll almost surely have Shaq/Kobe in the first two spots, Duncan at #3 then we'll see who else makes the ballot.

He really doesn't. As I just pointed out, the Spurs wing rotation played like garbage, so it's hardly surprising he went off against them while Shaq was drawing a tonne of attention inside. If Kobe was the best player that should have been evident throughout the RS and PS, not 1 series where the guys guarding him were trash.

Duncan was the victim of one of the worst destructions of a 60+ PW team in NBA history. He was the 3rd best player on the floor after Kobe and Shaq, respectively. Even though he was a well deserved RS MVP, it doesn't bode well for his chances on my ballot.

As for Kobe vs. Shaq in the PS, Kobe was probably better offensively in every series except the Finals. Including as I said the real Finals vs. the Spurs. The Sixers despite being a Finals opponent were the worst team of any the Lakers faced in the PS.

vs. Blazers (4.52 SRS)

Shaq: 27.0/15.7/2.7 on +1.3 rTS with 2.7 topg
Kobe: 25.0/4.3/7.7 on +5.2 rTS with 2.0 topg

vs. Kings (6.07 SRS)

Shaq: 33.3/17.3/2.3 on +9.1 rTS with 3.8 topg
Kobe: 35.0/9.0/4.3 on +9.0 rTS with 4.0 topg

vs. Spurs (7.92 SRS)

Shaq: 27.0/13.0/2.5 on +6.4 rTS with 3.5 topg
Kobe: 33.3/7.0/7.0 on +8.8 rTS with 2.8 topg

vs. Sixers (3.64 SRS)

Shaq: 33.0/15.8/4.8 on +7.6 rTS with 4.0 topg
Kobe: 24.6/7.8/5.8 on +0.2 rTS with 3.6 topg

I'm leaning towards #1 Kobe #2 Shaq #3 Duncan. As good of a top 3 as you'll see in this project though!

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:

AEnigma wrote:

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Defensive Player of the Year
3 - Alonzo Mourning

Mourning played 300 total minutes this season.

Uh okay. Who would you pick?

T-Mac or Mailman.

In the regular season, San Antonio had the best record with David Robinson still helping Tim Duncan. Swept by LA in the playoffs though. Next two were the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, who won the title, and the Sixers with Allen Iverson and a team of defensive specialists. I've never been an Iverson fan as a pro (I was a big fan at Georgetown) but this is a serious carry job and he's a legit MVP candidate despite my distaste for his style of play. It isn't a style conducive to great teams but this is probably the perfect team for him to maximize that style even if he wouldn't be that great elsewhere. Between Shaq and Kobe, teams were still building their defenses to stop Shaq giving Kobe a bit more freedom to be great.

Close behind were Sacramento with Webber and Peja who also got swept by LA, Utah still competing with Malone and Stockton despite the loss of Jeff Hornacek, Dallas with Dirk, Finley, and Nash who beat Utah in the 1st round, Milwaukee with Ray Allen and Glenn Robinson, Phoenix with Kidd and Marion, Portland with Rasheed who actually had a higher SRS than the Lakers, and Miami who won 50 despite losing Zo for the season.

MVP and scoring leader was Iverson, DPOY and rebounding leader was his teammate Mutombo, and Kidd led in assists. Box score compilation leader in all but VORP was Shaq, with Vince Carter taking VORP (and second in PER and Box Score +/-).

PLAYER OF THE YEAR

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Iverson
4. Mutombo
5. Kobe

One_and_Done wrote:

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Mourning played 300 total minutes this season.

Uh okay. Who would you pick?

T-Mac or Mailman.

Tmac? DPOY? Top Drtg teams were SA with Robinson and Duncan, Phoenix with Kidd and Marion, Knicks with Camby and Sprewell, Miami with Anthony Mason and Bruce Bowen . . . all better candidates than Tmac, arguably than Malone as well.

penbeast0 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Uh okay. Who would you pick?

T-Mac or Mailman.

Tmac? DPOY? Top Drtg teams were SA with Robinson and Duncan, Phoenix with Kidd and Marion, Knicks with Camby and Sprewell, Miami with Anthony Mason and Bruce Bowen . . . all better candidates than Tmac, arguably than Malone as well.

Not for DPOY. I assumed he had Zo on his regular POY ballot too and edited it to remove him. My bad.

penbeast0 wrote:

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Mourning played 300 total minutes this season.

Uh okay. Who would you pick?

Tmac? DPOY? Top Drtg teams were SA with Robinson and Duncan, Phoenix with Kidd and Marion, Knicks with Camby and Sprewell, Miami with Anthony Mason and Bruce Bowen . . .

Implicit based on your ballot, but Dikembe on the fifth ranked 76ers here is an easy top three DPoY choice for me. Bit of an odd campaign in the sense that he directly replaced the injured Theo Ratliff, who at that point was the likely frontrunner for the award, but the Hawks saw a ten-point defensive swing without him, so it is not as if he merely won a Marcus Smart -esque “team” award.

Separately, I would take Eddie Jones over Bowen and Mason on the Heat when he did play (although the games missed disqualifies him from consideration on my ballot).

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:

AEnigma wrote:

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Defensive Player of the Year
3 - Alonzo Mourning

Mourning played 300 total minutes this season.

Uh okay. Who would you pick?

Pretty much every NBA player who was at all above average on defense should be picked above Mourning. A player who played 300 minutes should not be on any ballot.

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:

AEnigma wrote:

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:Defensive Player of the Year
3 - Alonzo Mourning

Mourning played 300 total minutes this season.

Uh okay. Who would you pick?

Shawn Bradley
- Led the league in blocks by totals and by percentage
- Led the league in defensive on/off (Mavs were best defense with him, worst defense without him)
- Led the league in DRAPM in every version in every sample size up to 4 year

Problem is low playing time (2001 total minutes) but Bradley wasn't far from say Robinson (2371).

Voting Post

I see 3 legitimate #1 candidates. I can probably be convinced to shift their order if right points are made and justified. For now I will go

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaq

Duncan is unambiguously the best regular-season player to me and I'd guess it's a big gap as well. 5 more wins than what 1 and 3 here manage, 4-points higher SRS. With Shaq the Lakers are a better 3.8 but that still puts LA well, well below a Spurs team where Duncan averages 4 more minutes than the next highest mpg teammate Dav--'

Derek Anderson. David Robinson is averaging 29 minutes, 9 minutes less. The player whose supposed to be averaging the next most is Sean Elliot. He doesn't in part because he misses 30 games. Avery Johnson misses 27. He is about to retire. In the postseason Derek Anderson is absent. Duncan played every game. Credit to his teammates for putting up +13 in the spot minutes they shared without him. When they were actually without him, the Spurs were outscored by .4 from 01-07. And most of those teams included Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker. The Spurs are now 15-points and 38-wins better than they were before they drafted Duncan. And I'm still crediting the bulk of that to Timmy. If someone cares to argue for Vinne Johnson, Derek Anderson, or Antonio Daniels as difference makers they are welcome too. For me though, the Spurs reaching 58-wins and +7 is an all-time regular-season carry job. And if I am placing that below 2 players who combined for less wins and half-the-rating, both better have clearly outplayed Duncan. I can only say that for one. He's the one ranked above partially as a hat-tip to a 16-1 run where he played better for 3 of 4 series, averaged more minutes, and spearheaded an 11-point improvement in team performance from the 2000 playoffs as the Lakers went from the 96th ranked playoff team to the 2nd best of the last 100 years via rolling rating.

People can keep throwing the regular-season wowy for shaq/kobe if they wish but the rs is not where the Lakers three-peated. And the RS is certainly not getting Shaq over Duncan.


In the playoffs Duncan averages 9 more minutes than the next guy Der--'

David Robinson. Derek Anderson gets injured. He plays 7 games where he averages 27.7 minutes. Duncan meanwhile increases his scoring, his assists, his steals, his blocks, and his rebounds with basically the same effeciency. Perhaps someone wishes to argue these numbers are misrepresenative and actually Duncan's defense or playmaking or whatever collapsed. For me to buy that I'll probably need to see something similar to this:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=115977766#p115977766


In the first two rounds they go
+11 PSRS vs the Timberwolves (3-1)
+15 PSRS vs the Mavericks (4-1)
Not seeing much reason to think Duncan isn't clearly the best player here, never mind below 2 players on another team.

And then we get the conference finals. If Shaq is going to dig himself out of an already massive comparative hole, it'll have to be here:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2001-nba-western-conference-finals-lakers-vs-spurs.html
Yeah, color me skeptical.

It's not that I think any player a can't be much better than any player b if you showed what is counted here in a vacuum. But if a basketball reference box-score is going to be biased here, would it be biased against the generally better defender? And if it's biased, is it really going to be biased against the big who has a white-hot Kobe Bryant to feed them the ball and get easy assists of?

Maybe it is, but if it's simply the team result being used as evidence, I think there's plenty of alternative explantions there:


And then there's Kobe Bryant who is already being rewarded as #1.

Maybe it's Shaq's gravity actually becoming so much stronger, but Shaq's gravity was there for the regular-season and the last playoffs. Maybe it's Duncan defending much more poorly than normal (not that this allowed shaq to be significantly more effecient). But I need more than a maybe to flip the two of a 4-game sample.

4. Kevin Garnett

One could argue he outplayed Tim Duncan with pretty simple theory that was deployed for 99. The difference here though is the Wolves performance was not unique or impressive as it was the previous 2 postseasons(superior to Drik's Mavs fwiw). KG's scoring improves but a KG argument really needs to be of the regular-season. Little to no WOWY sample though we know that's pretty favorable for him in general. Off RAPM:
https://www.thespax.com/nba/quantifying-the-nbas-greatest-five-year-peaks-since-1997/
5 stretches use 2001. 4 of those 5 have his period rank as top 5 and 3 of them have it at 2 or higher. When I binged 2001 RAPM that was the only source that showed up. Per one of LA Bird's two sourced rapm citations 2001 KG is 8th by 5-year, 8th by 3-year, and 20th by one-year. The only thing I could pull for the other site was 3-year ending in 2002 6-factor RAPM. KG ended up 5th.

I have KG as a top 3 defender as well as a top 10 creator and top 20 scorer at this point. In a year where the likes of Iverson or Vince Carter are legitimate ballot considerations, that's enough for me to put him 4 and the data doesn't really seem to contradict that.

5. Allen Iverson

Was he the 5th best player? Not sure. But I think his playmaking gives him a viable enough defense against "outplayed by every sg" accusations and he plays rather well to give the Lakers their only loss in the playoffs.

DPOY
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Deke Dikembe

OPOY
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Shaq
3. Allen Iverson

Anyone not having Shaq isn't being sincere at all or transperent

If you want to champion your player cool

Prop up a player or criticise a player then do it for the same across the board. Consistency

30+/15+ and change for the playoffs the totality of the offensive ceiling, the most gravity, equity, value, the most dominant big ever gets it done in 16 games

Please

No one comes close to topping that output. What's the deal with you guys? Look at his impact and load ffs.

Why have a project if not for being objective?