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Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

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Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2025 7:12 pm
by tsherkin
So Ohayo ultimately conned me into doing a tracking post for Game 4 of the 2007 Cavs/Spurs Finals.

I'm rusty as hell, as I haven't really done any video tracking in years. I also did an ass job of actually tracking what counts as a possession, so I have a list with more discrete events than there were possessions in the game, though that isn't relevant to playmaking tracking, so it worked out.

The final tally?

35 EDTO, 14 ADA, following along with Ohayo's tracking lingo.

The big thing I noticed is that the Cavs did a lot of not having Lebron advance the ball in the first half and in the third, which was really stupid. Mike Brown winning at offense... :roll:

Once that changed at the end of the 1st (if only briefly) and most notably in the 4th, they started to see some major differences in what he was doing and the quality of their offense, because it wasn't being initiated through Drew Gooden or like Damon Jones/Eric Snow and the like. They did a piss-poor job of taking advantage of what assets they did have on offense, and it wasn't due to San Antonio's defense. There were also a LOT of stretches where the offense with Lebron static away from the ball, which was really, really weird and dumb.

It was interesting to see some early examples of Lebron in the post (which generally went pretty well), for all the talk that he didn't really develop his post game until Miami. It was there, it just wasn't frequent.

Not a ton of high degree-of-difficulty reads, but consistently creating quality looks when he got a head of steam to the rim, and a few from the post. Had one really nice set with Gooden cutting in from the far corner while Lebron posted on the right elbow.


Fun little exercise. Take some of the specifics with a grain of salt because I'm well out of practice and the video quality was HILARIOUSLY bad for about half the game, until my dumb ass realized I could change the resolution up from 360P... By which point, I was too lazy to go back and look. I don't think it would change much, but it was not my finest hour. xD

Anyway, enjoy!

Spoiler:
1) hand off to Gooden. No creation, no defenders affected at all.
2) Big Z passes out of the post, Lebron diag cut, loses defender, receives pass from Ilgauskas, swings it, Gibson swings it to the corner, 3 from Pavlovic.
3) Not involved in the play, stood on the L wing and did nothing
4) Lebron cuts to L elbow, accepts Big Z screen, drills pull-up J
5) Lebron receives on R side, drives hard to baseline, draws Oberto from weak side, misses fadeaway
6) Not involved, Gooden clanks long two
7) V cut, bricked 3
8) Not involved; Big Z ORB, Gibson 3.
9) Not involved.
10) Not involved
11) Advances ball, R side screen, Bowen sags, Lebron passes to Ilguaskas for made jumper
12) Advances, drive from R side. Bowen on, Duncan waiting, Horry helping; missed at rim
13) Lebron draws 3 defenders at the point as he hits a cutting Gooden, who misses at the rim
So far, 5 EDTOs, 1 assist

14) PnR, quality switch, no defenders affected, made jumper
15) Transition , pass, no defenders affected, Pavlovic kicks to corner, Gibson misses 3
16) Advances, swings to Gibson in corner, Parker overextends for a steal, Gibson hits 2
17) Not involved
18) Snow gets open with cuts, Lebron hits him, bricks a middie, no creation
19) Gooden ORB, Not involved
20) Rejects screen, dribbles to R corner, draws second defender, misses J
21) Snow Marshall PnR, Marshall to James to point, rejects AV screen, pass to Marshall L wing, drive, pass to AV, hook made
22) Baseline drive, rejects screen, dunks over smaller help defender
23) Receives pass from Marshall under the basket in transition, fouled.
24) Drive L, pulls second defender (+EDTO), turns corner (+EDTO), hits Gibson for corner 3 (brick)

7 EDTOs, 2 assists

25) Lebron R corner, draws double, skip pass, draws additional defender to contest shot (+EDTO, +ADA)
26) Not involved, Marshall/Snow turnover
27) Jones screens Bowen and gets open, Lebron passes, Jones misses a contested layup (+ADA)
28) Pass to Snow, Vaughan shows on Lebron then recovers, Snow dribbles, then hits J (+AST, +EDTO)
29) Bowen no-shot foul; not involved after foul
30) R to middle drive, SAS collapses, kick to corner for open Marshall 3, miss (+4 EDTO)
31) Pull up J, draws second defender, miss
32) R side post, bad pass TOV
33) R baseline, missed pull-up James, called a charge (offensive foul, TOV)
34) Not involved
35) Entry to Z in post, Ilgauskas TOV
36) Not involved
37) Bricks catch and shoot J, Gooden ORB
38) Not involved
39) Not involved
40) Not involved
41) Tried to receive a hi-lo. Fouled by Bowen.
42) Not involved
43) Screen at top, bricks 3
44) Drive, fouled. (+2 EDTO)
45) R side post v Manu, powers to the rim, miss. Ilgauskas multiple ORB and missed FGA, lose possession
46) Post up, bucket
47) Full-court heave w 0.5 s remaining

END HALF (15 EDTO, 2 ADA)

48) they open with Lebron L mid post. He comes high, draws a double w Duncan kind of shading and fires a **** BULLET to Gooden in the far corner after his man sucks in to guard Big Z. Gooden drives in and gets a floater (+2 EDTO, +1 ADA, AST)
49) L side post up, tries a behind the back bounce to Ilgauskas, TOV
50) PnR w gooden, takes out Gooden's defender, pass... Gooden bricks the J (+EDTO)
51) Not involved
52) PnR, bricked J R mid-range
53) Not involved
54) Entry to Gooden; waits, lets cutter go through, take and makes baseline J.
55) Kickout from Z, bricks 3
56) Doubled, bricks short floater (started 3/7, 1/9 since)
57) Bricks long 2 L side
58) Not involved
59) another LBJ/Gooden PnR, another bricked J from Gooden (+EDTO)
60) Lebron advances, drives, misses
61) Not involved
62) R elbow pass to cutting Gooden, made layup and foul (+EDTO, +ADA, AST)
63) Post repost with Ilgauskas, ultimately no involvement; Gibson iso.
64) PnR, finds open Gooden in corner, Gooden stalls. Horry moved when Lebron looked at the rim (+ADA)
64) Scramble PnR, hits Gooden on the low block, missed layup (+EDTO)
65) Lebron advances, Ilgauskas cuts through, Oberto stays on Lebron, pass for bricked J (+EDTO)
66) Lebron L wing, Gibson cuts through to R wing, Gooden cuts through paint, draws defender, pass to Gibson, brick
67) Drive, nothing, reset
68) Ran around perimeter, 3PA blocked by Horry
69) Drive to R block, kickout to L wing, ball swung to corner, 3PM (+2 EDTO, +2 ADA)
70) Lebron advances, passes to Marshall, drive and miss. Lebron grapples w Horry, jump ball violation (not at apex)

END 3RD (9 EDTO, 5 ADA)

71) Reb, advances, pass to Gibson, to corner 3, Marshall misses (+ADA)
72) Advances, drives, collapses D, pass to Marshall for contested layup (+2 EDTO, +1 ADA, AST)
73) Advances, short drive, kick to open Marshall, swing to corner for 3, miss (+EDTO)
74) Advances, drives, misses, Marshall ORB putback (+2 EDTO, +ADA)
75) Drives L side into paint, draws everyone but Horry, kick to Marshall (+2 EDTO, +2 ADA)
76) Drives L to R, gets into paint, pass to Marshall, who is fouled (+1 EDTO, +ADA)
77) TOV after DRB
78) Advances, pull-up J, make
79) Advances, drives, layup
80) Advances, pull up J miss, varejao ORB
81) L side post, doubled, kicks to point, Gibson drives and scores (+ADA)
82) PnR Marshall, double, kick to Marshall, airball (+EDTO), Gibson ORB
83) Drive L side, pull-up, miss
84) Hard drive R side, miss but fouled
85) Steal? (Varejao credited, James secured), pass ahead to Varejao in transition, bucket (+EDTO)
86) Advances, pull-up 3, in and out
87) Advances, TOV
88) Catch and shoot 3, gooden
89) DRB, TOV
90) Advances, pull-up 3, miss
91) Drive, layup, good
92) Advances, doubled, pass to AV, layup (+EDTO)
93) Advances, pass to Jones, fouled from 3
94) 3PM off inbounds after timeout

4Q: 11 EDTO, 7 ADA

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 2:47 pm
by trex_8063
I'd not assume every reader is familiar with this [apparently] poster-invented language. I, for example, am not.

What do EDTO and ADA mean?

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 4:12 pm
by OhayoKD
tsherkin wrote:35 EDTO, 14 ADA, following along with Ohayo's tracking lingo.

Based on tsherkin's estimate possession count of about 80(for Lebron), this gives him a per possession average of
.44 edtos per possession
0.61 TEDA (total extra defenders affected) per possession

For comparison...

During the first 40 possessions of game 1 of this finals, Lebron averaged, per possession:
.425 EDTOs and .775 TEDAs

During the first 40 possessions of game 5 vs the Lakers in 91, MJ averaged, per possession,
.225 EDTOs, and .5 TEDAs

(Also, I only conned you on the first half to be fair. Rest was your own doing. :D)

trex_8063 wrote:I'd not assume every reader is familiar with this [apparently] poster-invented language. I, for example, am not.

What do EDTO and ADA mean?

EDTOs:
Spoiler:
EDTOs are defenders you take out who aren’t primarily responsible for guarding you. Please note that in a possession where a player makes multiple passes, EDTOs will not be counted for taking out a guy who is primarily guarding that player a second time. Nor will they be counted if a new defender taken out happens to be your guy.

They're derived from DTOs:
Spoiler:
1. Defenders taken out (DTOs) -> this is when a player entirely or near-entirely renders a defender unable to affect an offensive play themselves(excepting a reset)


ADAs:
Spoiler:
2. Additional Defenders Affected (ADAs) -> this is when a player helps render a defender unable to affect an offensive play

Will be looking for these on non-baskets and on rebounds and will be counting the two as separate things. Will also count plays where there was an opportunity to take-advantage of a player's off-ball creation but the opportunity was passed on. Will not be looking for on-ball creation though I encourage any interested party to look for the same things with the ball. I also encourage any interested party to do their own tracking/vetting.

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 4:14 pm
by tsherkin
OhayoKD wrote:I only conned you on the first half to be fair. Rest was your own doing. :D


This is true. You conned me into 40 possessions and then I just kept going, heh.

The big thing I was wondering while watching was why in the name of all that is holy the Cavs weren't having Lebron advance the ball the entire game. Every time he did, something good happened. It was mystifying. And there were several of these long stretches of consecutive possessions where the ball didn't come to him, which was also baffling, especially given how useless the rest of the team was at everything.

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 4:34 pm
by colts18
tsherkin wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:I only conned you on the first half to be fair. Rest was your own doing. :D


This is true. You conned me into 40 possessions and then I just kept going, heh.

The big thing I was wondering while watching was why in the name of all that is holy the Cavs weren't having Lebron advance the ball the entire game. Every time he did, something good happened. It was mystifying. And there were several of these long stretches of consecutive possessions where the ball didn't come to him, which was also baffling, especially given how useless the rest of the team was at everything.

A Mike Brown Offensive coaching special. The only chance the Cavs had of winning the series was for LeBron to play Superhero ball from the 2015 Finals. He was only 22 years old so he had the stamina to go for 30 FGA/game and 10 Assists.

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 4:39 pm
by tsherkin
colts18 wrote:A Mike Brown Offensive coaching special. The only chance the Cavs had of winning the series was for LeBron to play Superhero ball from the 2015 Finals. He was only 22 years old so he had the stamina to go for 30 FGA/game and 10 Assists.


I mean, they never had a chance in that series, so I don't blame Lebron. I was just boggled by the coaching decision, because they weren't putting their best foot forward for most of the game. He appeared to decide "screw this, I'm gonna try and get it" in the late third and the fourth, and that made it close, but damn. What a weird strategy. It reconfirmed my opinion of Brown from the time: all D, no O.

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:20 pm
by lessthanjake
tsherkin wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:I only conned you on the first half to be fair. Rest was your own doing. :D


This is true. You conned me into 40 possessions and then I just kept going, heh.

The big thing I was wondering while watching was why in the name of all that is holy the Cavs weren't having Lebron advance the ball the entire game. Every time he did, something good happened. It was mystifying. And there were several of these long stretches of consecutive possessions where the ball didn't come to him, which was also baffling, especially given how useless the rest of the team was at everything.


This doesn’t just relate to this specific point, but I think people sometimes forget that players definitely do have limited energy. Often the answer to “Why didn’t the coach just have Player A do X on every play” is that Player A wouldn’t have the energy to do that, or at least wouldn’t have the energy to do so without slipping in other ways or playing fewer minutes.

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:23 pm
by tsherkin
lessthanjake wrote:This doesn’t just relate to this specific point, but I think people sometimes forget that players definitely do have limited energy. Often the answer to “Why didn’t the coach just have Player A do X on every play” is that Player A wouldn’t have the energy to do that, or at least wouldn’t have the energy to do so without slipping in other ways or playing fewer minutes.


Oh, for sure.

It's just in this specific case (which I understand you were broadening out from), it was basically the entire first half. I could understand more if they were alternating back and forth, but he was very much not involved in helpful ways for most of the first half. And we're talking about just advancing the ball, which doesn't take any more energy than moving up the court. Less, really, than actually running up the court. So that part was odd. I grok why he wasnt aggressively driving all game, why they sometimes took possessions to other guys, but there were LONG stretches of no involvement while he was on the floor, and basically half the game where he wasn't advancing the ball.

Energy management is a thing but if that's what it was, it was bungled badly regardless.

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:27 pm
by lessthanjake
tsherkin wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:This doesn’t just relate to this specific point, but I think people sometimes forget that players definitely do have limited energy. Often the answer to “Why didn’t the coach just have Player A do X on every play” is that Player A wouldn’t have the energy to do that, or at least wouldn’t have the energy to do so without slipping in other ways or playing fewer minutes.


Oh, for sure.

It's just in this specific case (which I understand you were broadening out from), it was basically the entire first half. I could understand more if they were alternating back and forth, but he was very much not involved in helpful ways for most of the first half. And we're talking about just advancing the ball, which doesn't take any more energy than moving up the court. Less, really, than actually running up the court. So that part was odd. I grok why he wasnt aggressively driving all game, why they sometimes took possessions to other guys, but there were LONG stretches of no involvement while he was on the floor, and basically half the game where he wasn't advancing the ball.

Energy management is a thing but if that's what it was, it was bungled badly regardless.


Yeah, I see your point. I do wonder though whether this sort of thing went part and parcel with energy management in light of: (1) LeBron playing very heavy playoff minutes; (2) the team wanting to make sure first and foremost that LeBron would be fresh at the end of the game; and (3) LeBron actually exerting a lot of defensive effort in this time period. It may not explain all of it, and I’m not saying the coaching was perfect by any means, but I do tend to think energy management almost always explains the vast majority of why a team’s clear best player isn’t very involved for a significant stretch.

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:29 pm
by tsherkin
lessthanjake wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:This doesn’t just relate to this specific point, but I think people sometimes forget that players definitely do have limited energy. Often the answer to “Why didn’t the coach just have Player A do X on every play” is that Player A wouldn’t have the energy to do that, or at least wouldn’t have the energy to do so without slipping in other ways or playing fewer minutes.


Oh, for sure.

It's just in this specific case (which I understand you were broadening out from), it was basically the entire first half. I could understand more if they were alternating back and forth, but he was very much not involved in helpful ways for most of the first half. And we're talking about just advancing the ball, which doesn't take any more energy than moving up the court. Less, really, than actually running up the court. So that part was odd. I grok why he wasnt aggressively driving all game, why they sometimes took possessions to other guys, but there were LONG stretches of no involvement while he was on the floor, and basically half the game where he wasn't advancing the ball.

Energy management is a thing but if that's what it was, it was bungled badly regardless.


Yeah, I see your point. I do wonder though whether this sort of thing went part and parcel with energy management in light of: (1) LeBron playing very heavy playoff minutes; (2) the team wanting to make sure first and foremost that LeBron would be fresh at the end of the game; and (3) LeBron actually exerting a lot of defensive effort in this time period. It may not explain all of it, and I’m not saying the coaching was perfect by any means, but I do tend to think energy management almost always explains the vast majority of why a team’s clear best player isn’t very involved for a significant stretch.


Honestly, I think it's mostly that MIke Brown was a witless tool on O, which he has generally demonstrated over his coaching career. Great with defensive Xs and Os, but little appreciation of offense.

Lebron would have had max stamina at the start of the game, even if you consider cumulative fatigue. For him not to be advancing the all AT ALL was fairly stupid, particularly given the incompetence of the offense when literally anything else happened.

I can get him taking breaks. But not using him in a way which deployed his best abilities almost at all for an entire half? In an elimination game?

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 9:13 am
by jiffzzz
How Daniel Gibson “saved” Lebron in game 6 of the ECF

Based on my tracking here’s every double team and points created by LeBron’s gravity

1:21:52
Lebron doubled, passes to Gooden who was wide open for a second, gooden tried to pass it to Ilgauskus but turned it over
0 pts created (9x double team for Lebron)

1:22:26
Lebron doubled, passes to Verajao in the paint for a contested shot
0 pts created (10x double team for LeBron)

1:25:47
Lebron doubled on the catch (at halfcourt), Prince pushes James out of bounds and Prince gets an offensive foul and Lebron gets two FT
0 pts created (11x double ream for Lebron)

BONUS: Lowest FG Attempts in a half (4)
2 FGA in the 2nd Half

1:27:02
Literally every time LeBron was doubled and created an open shot
““He’s taking on more of a passing role here tonight, you can see how much attention he’s drawing from the Piston defence EVERY possession, 2,3 defenders coming at him and the Cavalier teammates coming through for him””

1:33:00
Lebron TRIPLED on the catch, Hughes and Ilgauskus are open, and Lebron passes to Ilgauskus
0 pts created (2 potential pts created) (11x double team for LeBron)

1:41:52
Lebron doubled, passes to Hughes
0 pts created (12x Double team for LeBron)

1:51:35
Lebron doubled in transition, passes to Gooden in the paint who gets fouled
1 point created (2 potential pts created) (13x double team for LeBron)

1:59:11
Lebron doubled, passes to Verajao at the 3pt line
0 pts created (3 potential pts created) (14x double team for LeBron)

Kinda crappy but LeBron was getting doubled back and fourth giving Gibson and many others open shots

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 5:58 pm
by McBubbles
tsherkin wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:I only conned you on the first half to be fair. Rest was your own doing. :D


This is true. You conned me into 40 possessions and then I just kept going, heh.

The big thing I was wondering while watching was why in the name of all that is holy the Cavs weren't having Lebron advance the ball the entire game. Every time he did, something good happened. It was mystifying. And there were several of these long stretches of consecutive possessions where the ball didn't come to him, which was also baffling, especially given how useless the rest of the team was at everything.


Me catching the occasional clip or highlights of Derrick Rose in 2012 was the beginning of my basketball fandom, but I remember the first fully recorded NBA games I went back and watched were actually of the 09 Cavs, and I remember thinking "Huh, LeBron is NOWHERE close as ball dominant as I expected him to be"

For LONG stretches of time LeBron would be playing off ball, for what I can only assume is due to poor coaching and general pre-2010 notions of how to best maximise all players on the floor. It's not even like this was a late game situation either. I remember in the first few minutes in the first quarter of a playoff game they'd just let Mo Williams or Delonte West primarily handle the ball. I was shocked.

Edit - I've just read the rests of the posts and this has already been brought up lol. Shocking though.

Re: Crappy Tracking Post - Lebron v Spurs, G4 2007 Finals

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2025 6:08 pm
by tsherkin
McBubbles wrote:Edit - I've just read the rests of the posts and this has already been brought up lol. Shocking though.


Yeah, it was wild AF how poorly constructed that Cleveland offense was under Mike Brown, man.
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