Replace SGA with 09’ Wade

[Hook_Em]

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[One_and_Done]

Wade couldn't shoot 3s, which is a problem. Also just keeping it real, but those 00s guards like Kobe and Wade were just worse players than SGA.

[homecourtloss]

They’re a +12.6 SRS team and SGA is +19 on court playing the majority of his season without his second best player on the team. As good as Dwyane Wade it was in 2009, they’re not going to be better with him.

[TheGOATRises007]

I think they'd be the same.

[DirtyDez]

That’s the season Wade was coming off the Olympics and finally healthy again. It’s wild he got 7 first place votes for MVP considering 09’ Lebron might be the greatest regular season this generation.

I’m going with Wade being an upgrade over SGA. The only obvious superiority in this hypothetical leaning SGA is 3pt shooting. That version of Wade today is the best athlete in the league with his rare combination of explosiveness and coordination while carrying a G-League roster.

[Sign5]

When are folks going to stop using lack of 3s to penalize Wade? Wade was essentially what Zion is but at 6'4 and more slithery and elusive so he could maneuver around double/triple teams and more effectively than Zion can who can slowed a bit by placing a wall in front of him.

The bigs today are also on average smaller so it would mean less resistance for arguably the best slashing guard of all time to inevitably get to the rim. Not to mention amongst guards under 6'4, Wade has the most dunks of any in a slower paced league.

This is despite 2 bigs regularly clogging the paint and I'm supposed to believe he'd do worse with more spacing in a faster more guard/offensive friendly league? Every time I see someone mention Wade's lack of 3pt shooting being a huge detriment it just tells me they have no clue what they're talking about. Just a lazy analysis.

Even a 2-3 zone which is what more stout defensive teams like Boston/Chicago and Mavericks employed any time they faced the Heat and Wade routinely tore them up.

That said '09 Wade shot roughly 32% from 3 to Shai's 35%. So not sure 3pt shooting would be what determines superiority. Either way hypothetically you surround Wade with 3-4 shooters and his lack of 3pt shooting wouldn't matter much since it would provide him more than enough room to simply blow by his defender one on one and likely finish in a slam dunk.

[tsherkin]

I clicked the wrong one, I meant to click "marginally worse."

Wade in 09 was amazing, and his middie was clicking. Quality defender, nasty scorer who was an earlier high-volume user of the PnR. He'd suit pretty well, especially in today's pace and space environment. He just wasn't as ridiculous as Shai is this season.

[One_and_Done]

When are folks going to stop using lack of 3s to penalize Wade? Wade was essentially what Zion is but at 6'4 and more slithery and elusive so he could maneuver around double/triple teams and more effectively than Zion can who can slowed a bit by placing a wall in front of him.

The bigs today are also on average smaller so it would mean less resistance for arguably the best slashing guard of all time to inevitably get to the rim. Not to mention amongst guards under 6'4, Wade has the most dunks of any in a slower paced league.

This is despite 2 bigs regularly clogging the paint and I'm supposed to believe he'd do worse with more spacing in a faster more guard/offensive friendly league? Every time I see someone mention Wade's lack of 3pt shooting being a huge detriment it just tells me they have no clue what they're talking about. Just a lazy analysis.

Even a 2-3 zone which is what more stout defensive teams like Boston/Chicago and Mavericks employed any time they faced the Heat and Wade routinely tore them up.

That said '09 Wade shot roughly 32% from 3 to Shai's 35%. So not sure 3pt shooting would be what determines superiority. Either way hypothetically you surround Wade with 3-4 shooters and his lack of 3pt shooting wouldn't matter much since it would provide him more than enough room to simply blow by his defender one on one and likely finish in a slam dunk.

And how is Zion's team doing?

[jjgp111292]

When are folks going to stop using lack of 3s to penalize Wade? Wade was essentially what Zion is but at 6'4 and more slithery and elusive so he could maneuver around double/triple teams and more effectively than Zion can who can slowed a bit by placing a wall in front of him.

The bigs today are also on average smaller so it would mean less resistance for arguably the best slashing guard of all time to inevitably get to the rim. Not to mention amongst guards under 6'4, Wade has the most dunks of any in a slower paced league.

This is despite 2 bigs regularly clogging the paint and I'm supposed to believe he'd do worse with more spacing in a faster more guard/offensive friendly league? Every time I see someone mention Wade's lack of 3pt shooting being a huge detriment it just tells me they have no clue what they're talking about. Just a lazy analysis.

Even a 2-3 zone which is what more stout defensive teams like Boston/Chicago and Mavericks employed any time they faced the Heat and Wade routinely tore them up.

That said '09 Wade shot roughly 32% from 3 to Shai's 35%. So not sure 3pt shooting would be what determines superiority. Either way hypothetically you surround Wade with 3-4 shooters and his lack of 3pt shooting wouldn't matter much since it would provide him more than enough room to simply blow by his defender one on one and likely finish in a slam dunk.

And how is Zion's team doing?

Populating a medical ward? I'm not sure how point A correlates to point B here.

[tsherkin]

[
And how is Zion's team doing?

Was this supposed to be a quality retort?

They WERE an 11th-ranked O last season when he was playing most of the games, and Zion was like 6, 7% worse at the line and not a playmaker of consequence. And was only playing < 32 mpg.

[One_and_Done]

[
And how is Zion's team doing?

Was this supposed to be a quality retort?

They WERE an 11th-ranked O last season when he was playing most of the games, and Zion was like 6, 7% worse at the line and not a playmaker of consequence. And was only playing < 32 mpg.

I'm not sure I'd be citing Zion as an example, when the comparison is the historical success of SGA and the Thunder this year.

[tsherkin]

[
And how is Zion's team doing?

Was this supposed to be a quality retort?

They WERE an 11th-ranked O last season when he was playing most of the games, and Zion was like 6, 7% worse at the line and not a playmaker of consequence. And was only playing < 32 mpg.

I'm not sure I'd be citing Zion as an example, when the comparison is the historical success of SGA and the Thunder this year.

What you said in response wasn't really an effective retort of anything, though. The point was made that Wade should be just fine in the absence of significant 3pt shooting.

[One_and_Done]

Was this supposed to be a quality retort?

They WERE an 11th-ranked O last season when he was playing most of the games, and Zion was like 6, 7% worse at the line and not a playmaker of consequence. And was only playing < 32 mpg.

I'm not sure I'd be citing Zion as an example, when the comparison is the historical success of SGA and the Thunder this year.

What you said in response wasn't really an effective retort of anything, though. The point was made that Wade should be just fine in the absence of significant 3pt shooting.

The point is that citing Zion does nothing to advance this comparison. He hasn't driven winning in the same way as SGA.

[Sign5]

I'm not sure I'd be citing Zion as an example, when the comparison is the historical success of SGA and the Thunder this year.

What you said in response wasn't really an effective retort of anything, though. The point was made that Wade should be just fine in the absence of significant 3pt shooting.

The point is that citing Zion does nothing to advance this comparison. He hasn't driven winning in the same way as SGA.

It does something to anyone with some semblance of brain cells to determine the link between both players and how they thrive/would thrive in this era.

Zion's lack of team success is purely due to him being extremely injury prone not lack of ability.

When he was actually healthy for his longest stretch games back in the '23 season, Willie Green wisely employed point Zion and he lead his team to the best record in the west and was an early top 3 MVP candidate after Jokic, Luka etc









Unfortunately he ultimately got injured. So acting like Zion is some ineffective player is silly. His lack of success is purely due to his lack of discipline/conditioning and injury woes.

Thus, there's just enough evidence for one to determine Wade would do just fine in a league that offers more spacing, less bigs at the rim and a friendlier whistle. Not to mention Wade was never Rondo nor Zion 3pt shooting-wise, he wasn't a prolific 3pt shooter by any stretch but was streaky and could hit them at times.

Hell he singlehandedly willed Miami to a victory against the eventual ECF champs in 2010 being streaky from 3 so it's not like he's completely inept like a lot seem to paint him as

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[Doctor MJ]

Replace SGA with 09' Wade

So, my first thought here, because of prior conversations along these lines, is this:

I don't think Shai & Wade are actually that similar players. I think people the helio aspect of things and see the FTr and draw a connection, but:

1. The way they physically gain their advantages is very different. Wade was a quick-twitch freight train, while Shai is all about herky-jerky balance. Doesn't mean Wade couldn't thrive in OKC or in the modern game, but I do think people need to think about the difference in approach.

2. Shai's just a better shooter in general.

If we look at his FG% splits this year we get:

0-3: 77.6%
3-10 50.2%
10-16 55.5%
16-3P 41.9%
3P 41.9%
FT 89.9%

And if we look at Wade '08-09, which many consider his apex:

0-3 66.4%
3-10 47.9%
10-16 44.5%
16-3P 41.6%
3P 31.7%
FT 76.5%

So while I get the argument that a helio doesn't actually need a 3-point shot, just in general it helps to be a better shooter, and if you're thinking that Wade could match Shai's efficiency today, I think you need to ask yourself how exactly you're expecting his shooting percentages to start matching Shai's given that stuff like FT% just states pretty definitively that Wade ain't in the same league.

3. I do think we should be keeping in mind Shai's low TO numbers.

This year Shai's TO% is 9.3, whereas Wade was a 11.6% in the year in question.

4. Finally a thing I always feel a need to bring up about Wade is that people have this tendency nowadays to think he had LeBron levels of passing when the reality is that he was a 2-guard-turned-helio and was never actually known as a great passer.

Now, I think you can still have an argument when comparing Wade vs Shai on this front, because Shai certainly didn't begin as a great passer and he ain't in a conversation with the Jokices and Lukas of the world on that front, but just fundamentally I object to treating Wade's passing as if it's definitively "good enough" to match other players just as a matter of principle.

[OhayoKD]

When are folks going to stop using lack of 3s to penalize Wade? Wade was essentially what Zion is but at 6'4 and more slithery and elusive so he could maneuver around double/triple teams and more effectively than Zion can who can slowed a bit by placing a wall in front of him.

The bigs today are also on average smaller so it would mean less resistance for arguably the best slashing guard of all time to inevitably get to the rim. Not to mention amongst guards under 6'4, Wade has the most dunks of any in a slower paced league.

This is despite 2 bigs regularly clogging the paint and I'm supposed to believe he'd do worse with more spacing in a faster more guard/offensive friendly league? Every time I see someone mention Wade's lack of 3pt shooting being a huge detriment it just tells me they have no clue what they're talking about. Just a lazy analysis.

Even a 2-3 zone which is what more stout defensive teams like Boston/Chicago and Mavericks employed any time they faced the Heat and Wade routinely tore them up.

That said '09 Wade shot roughly 32% from 3 to Shai's 35%. So not sure 3pt shooting would be what determines superiority. Either way hypothetically you surround Wade with 3-4 shooters and his lack of 3pt shooting wouldn't matter much since it would provide him more than enough room to simply blow by his defender one on one and likely finish in a slam dunk.

And how is Zion's team doing?

Populating a medical ward? I'm not sure how point A correlates to point B here.

You're not sure how Zion not being a successful model is relevant to an argument that hinges on Zion being a successful model?

What you said in response wasn't really an effective retort of anything, though. The point was made that Wade should be just fine in the absence of significant 3pt shooting.

The point is that citing Zion does nothing to advance this comparison. He hasn't driven winning in the same way as SGA.

It does something to anyone with some semblance of brain cells to determine the link between both players and how they thrive/would thrive in this era

Zion having nice basketball reference slashlines without the results to go along with it is not actual evidence Wade would mantain his impact in a much stronger league with much better players. Shai is far more effective than Zion is. Your Zion comparison was aimless yapping. And that's setting aside the comedy of treating them as if they're similar players physically because of their height. Wade finds and punishes gaps, Zion, when healthy, creates them. Wade is not nearly strong or big enough to generate the same sort of inside gravity healthy Zion does.

Hell he singlehandedly willed Miami to a victory against the eventual ECF champs in 2010

Incredible achievement. No one is arguing Wade wouldn't be capable gaudy basketball reference slashlines. The question is the relevance of gaudy stats in a league where everyone has them. Wade's team getting torched by a sort of Modern defense is not the talking point you think it is.

[jjgp111292]

...so are we just pretending that Zion hasn't missed 55% of his career games and the few stretches where he was healthy and had a decent, healthy cast at the same time the Pelicans have looked good with him as the centerpiece?

I already know you're gonna try to educate me on the word reductive again because that's what you do, but yeah.

[Sign5]

And how is Zion's team doing?

Populating a medical ward? I'm not sure how point A correlates to point B here.

You're not sure how Zion not being a successful model is relevant to an argument that hinges on Zion being a successful model?

The point is that citing Zion does nothing to advance this comparison. He hasn't driven winning in the same way as SGA.

It does something to anyone with some semblance of brain cells to determine the link between both players and how they thrive/would thrive in this era

Zion having nice basketball reference slashlines without the results to go along with it is not actual evidence Wade would mantain his impact in a much stronger league with much better players. Shai is far more effective than Zion is. Your Zion comparison was aimless yapping. And that's setting aside the comedy of treating them as if they're similar players physically because of their height. Wade finds and punishes gaps, Zion, when healthy, creates them. Wade is not nearly strong or big enough to generate the same sort of inside gravity healthy Zion does.

Hell he singlehandedly willed Miami to a victory against the eventual ECF champs in 2010

Incredible achievement. No one is arguing Wade wouldn't be capable gaudy basketball reference slashlines. The question is the relevance of gaudy stats in a league where everyone has them. Wade's team getting torched by a sort of Modern defense is not the talking point you think it is.

Lol what a joke. "gaudy basketball reference stats", like Wade isn't a 3x champion and didn't put Heat on his back en route to his first title. Also Wade isn't as strong as Zion but he's quicker, smaller, more elusive/slithery meaning he'd be able to manuever through gaps and zones better than zion which is what I initially stated. Saying Wade isn't as strong as Zion is irrelevant, 99% of nba players in history weren't. This discussion is primarily about SGA vs Wade and Wade was arguably the strongest guard ever and once again has the most dunks of any guard under 6'4. This is in a league where every team had at least 1-2 6-11/7ft center PLUS another 6-9-6'11 PF. So acting like Wade HAD to avoid contact and didn't slam it on 100s of guys far bigger than him is hilarious. This isn't Derrick Rose.

See dunk on Perkins, see dunk on Varejao, see dunk on Jermaine O'Neal, see Dunk on Garnett, see dunk on Dwight Howard, see dunk on Bogut and on and on. You either have no clue what you're talking about (yet again) have poor memory or just simply didn't watch enough Wade.

No one said "because they're the same player due to having the same height" that's some thing you pulled out your butt as Zion is 6'6 and Wade is 6'4 and they're separated by a good 40-50 pounds. The implication was simply they had/have very similar playing styles. One is just built like a Mac truck with freak athletic ability/foot speed. The other was built like tank at 6'4 but had the speed/quickness of a guard 4-5 inches smaller than him. On top of having arguably the best body control of any guard outside MJ, he was also ridiculously explosive. This is combined with his freakish 6'11 wingpsan. Honestly, before you come back with an emotional filled response thinking you're "schooling" someone. Stop think, and assess what you typed.

Im well aware of your post history on player comparsions board. Please come back better with tangible logic ala Dr MJ or Tsherkin not snarky back handed condescending remarks. Thanks.

[The-Power]

You can't just adjust for pace but not for minutes as well.

As to the question at hand, I do think it makes sense to assume that OKC would be worse considering how much this OKC team relies on SGA-led line-ups to dominate. It's not impossible that they stay the same (hard to argue they get notably better, though) but that's not the most reasonable expectation. Whether it's ‘marginally’ or ‘moderately’ worse it's difficult to say and depends on various assumptions where reasonable minds can disagree (in addition to how you define and delineate the two terms).

[OhayoKD]

Populating a medical ward? I'm not sure how point A correlates to point B here.

You're not sure how Zion not being a successful model is relevant to an argument that hinges on Zion being a successful model?

It does something to anyone with some semblance of brain cells to determine the link between both players and how they thrive/would thrive in this era

Zion having nice basketball reference slashlines without the results to go along with it is not actual evidence Wade would mantain his impact in a much stronger league with much better players. Shai is far more effective than Zion is. Your Zion comparison was aimless yapping. And that's setting aside the comedy of treating them as if they're similar players physically because of their height. Wade finds and punishes gaps, Zion, when healthy, creates them. Wade is not nearly strong or big enough to generate the same sort of inside gravity healthy Zion does.

Hell he singlehandedly willed Miami to a victory against the eventual ECF champs in 2010

Incredible achievement. No one is arguing Wade wouldn't be capable gaudy basketball reference slashlines. The question is the relevance of gaudy stats in a league where everyone has them. Wade's team getting torched by a sort of Modern defense is not the talking point you think it is.

Lol what a joke. "gaudy basketball reference stats", like Wade isn't a 3x champion and didn't put Heat on his back en route to his first title.

You do know that when you use "Like" like that, what follows the "like" is supposed to contradict what you're responding to? What does Wade winning a title in 2006 prove about whether he'd maintain, get better, or get worse in 2025?

Also Wade isn't as strong as Zion but he's quicker, smaller, more elusive/slithery meaning he'd be able to manuever through gaps and zones better than zion which is what I initially stated.

No. This is what you initially stated:

The bigs today are also on average smaller so it would mean less resistance for arguably the best slashing guard of all time to inevitably get to the rim.

The bigs are smaller, in exchange for being quicker and more explosive. As Wade is as incapable of overpowering Wemby as he was Dwight Howard, making today's bigs worse matchups for Wade than the bigs he played against. In other words, going by "tangible logic", the matchups theoretically bolstering Zion, limit Wade: You are arguing against yourself.

Wade is going to have a much harder time dunking on Wemby or Bam or AD than he would have had dunking on Jermaine O Neal. This league's bigs are much better suited for containing explosive slashers than the bigs of the 2000s were. And that's before we get to you explaining how small stretches where the Pelicans weren't mediocre or bad leads to Wade capably leading one of the best regular-season teams ever


I don't know. I think it would preferable if you waited to comment on other poster's brain-cells, after you've managed a semblance of a point.