Replace ANT with '08 Kobe

[Matt15]

Same idea as the Wade thread. How do the Wolves fare with '08 Kobe replacing Edwards?

[One_and_Done]

Wolves get much worse.

[CBS7]

Wolves get much worse.

You can't actually believe this

[cupcakesnake]

Kobe is a better playmaker than ANT, and his scoring resiliency theoretically gives the Wolves a higher floor on offense (though it's a big assumption that Kobe could lift bad offenses in the same way in this era... high volume medium efficiency scorers do not have the same impact on offense in 2025). I think Kobe would be able to throw the lob pass to Gobert way better than Ant.

Problem is, Ant is the main source of spacing for the Wolves right now. The Wolves are starved for spacing due to big minutes for Gobert, Jaden, and Randle. Taking away Ant's 10 attempts per game at 41% and replacing that with a career 33% 3-point shooter sounds like a recipe for awful. If you think Ant and Randle is a bad fit, imagine Kobe and Randle fighting for the right to iso at the elbow.

Defensively, I like Ant much more than the 2008 version of Kobe.

[One_and_Done]

Wolves get much worse.

You can't actually believe this

Of course I do.

Ant is basically like Kobe if he could shoot 3s, and was better on D. Wolves would be worse with Kobe's inferior spacing and inconsistent D.

[f4p]

kobe has ant beat by 5 in PER, by 75% in WS48, and by 60% in BPM and doubles him up in on/off (7 vs 3.4). this is not a particularly close race.

Kobe is a better playmaker than ANT, and his scoring resiliency theoretically gives the Wolves a higher floor on offense (though it's a big assumption that Kobe could lift bad offenses in the same way in this era... high volume medium efficiency scorers do not have the same impact on offense in 2025).

but that's literally what edwards is. he had to go on a heater the last week to get his TS+ above 100 for the season, while kobe was at 107 back in 2008.

Problem is, Ant is the main source of spacing for the Wolves right now. The Wolves are starved for spacing due to big minutes for Gobert, Jaden, and Randle. Taking away Ant's 10 attempts per game at 41% and replacing that with a career 33% 3-point shooter sounds like a recipe for awful. If you think Ant and Randle is a bad fit, imagine Kobe and Randle fighting for the right to iso at the elbow.

edwards takes 10 3's at 41% and yet is a much less efficient scorer relative to era because kobe got to the line 50% more often (by FTr) and crushes edwards from 3 ft to 23 ft.

[Pelly24]

Kobe is a better playmaker than ANT, and his scoring resiliency theoretically gives the Wolves a higher floor on offense (though it's a big assumption that Kobe could lift bad offenses in the same way in this era... high volume medium efficiency scorers do not have the same impact on offense in 2025). I think Kobe would be able to throw the lob pass to Gobert way better than Ant.

Problem is, Ant is the main source of spacing for the Wolves right now. The Wolves are starved for spacing due to big minutes for Gobert, Jaden, and Randle. Taking away Ant's 10 attempts per game at 41% and replacing that with a career 33% 3-point shooter sounds like a recipe for awful. If you think Ant and Randle is a bad fit, imagine Kobe and Randle fighting for the right to iso at the elbow.

Defensively, I like Ant much more than the 2008 version of Kobe.

I know some people are hesitant to use relative efficiency, but Kobe scored more points on essentially better efficiency even without going relative.

Kobe is a much better player than Ant. It's really not close. His ws/48 and BPM are a lot better. There's at least a decent argument he'd be 1 or 2 TS% points better than ant now. Way better ballhandler and passer. Smarter player.

This really isn't close. Ant is pretty overrated. Like the Wolves are the 7th seed right now, barely. He's got the DPOY, Randle, a 6moy contender or winner from last year. This isn't some garbage team.

[Pelly24]

Like Ant is so overrated it's crazy. He had an entire month (Decembet) where he averaged 20.5 points with 6 rebounds and 4 assists on 53.7 TS% and no one batted an eye. So like not only was he pretty inefficient, his volume was bad too and his playmaking didn't really jump to help either. 2008 Kobe is getting you those numbers with literally like, a broken hand. He just got to the line way more. 2008 Kobe is two tiers better as a player than Ant — at least.

[cupcakesnake]

Kobe is a better playmaker than ANT, and his scoring resiliency theoretically gives the Wolves a higher floor on offense (though it's a big assumption that Kobe could lift bad offenses in the same way in this era... high volume medium efficiency scorers do not have the same impact on offense in 2025). I think Kobe would be able to throw the lob pass to Gobert way better than Ant.

Problem is, Ant is the main source of spacing for the Wolves right now. The Wolves are starved for spacing due to big minutes for Gobert, Jaden, and Randle. Taking away Ant's 10 attempts per game at 41% and replacing that with a career 33% 3-point shooter sounds like a recipe for awful. If you think Ant and Randle is a bad fit, imagine Kobe and Randle fighting for the right to iso at the elbow.

Defensively, I like Ant much more than the 2008 version of Kobe.

I know some people are hesitant to use relative efficiency, but Kobe scored more points on essentially better efficiency even without going relative.

Kobe is a much better player than Ant. It's really not close. His ws/48 and BPM are a lot better. There's at least a decent argument he'd be 1 or 2 TS% points better than ant now. Way better ballhandler and passer. Smarter player.

This really isn't close. Ant is pretty overrated. Like the Wolves are the 7th seed right now, barely. He's got the DPOY, Randle, a 6moy contender or winner from last year. This isn't some garbage team.

You misunderstand me. I never said Ant was better than Kobe. I think his fit on the Wolves is very awkward. We're a team with very little spacing, scraping by with a league average offense. Ant is our spacing. He accounts for over a quarter of our 3-point attempts and over a 3rd of our makes. Take that away and replace him with another medicore shooter, the whole system collpases and everything becomes harder: Jaden/Randle/Naz drives, Rudy lobs... we're overly dependant on Ant holding down the spacing part of the equation currently.

In Kobe's era, you could have 1 great offense player, a few complimentary pieces, and get by fine on offense. That's not the case today. Teams are crazy deep, have optimized strategies, and relentless hit you where you're soft. Fit matters more than ever.

Swap out say... Ant and one of the bad shooters, for Kobe and a starter-quality shooter, and I think the Wolves could be a lot better on offense ready. With our present roster construction, Kobe is a bad fit. You probably feel talent transcends fit, where I'm more like talent+fit is what makes teams win. Kobe is a talent upgrade and fit downgrade, only because the Wolves are shooting starved. We don't have driving lanes for Kobe, and the movement sets that Kobe got his easy buckets in would be clunky with Minnesota's personnel because we lack secondary playmakers.

[tsherkin]

You misunderstand me. I never said Ant was better than Kobe. I think his fit on the Wolves is very awkward. We're a team with very little spacing, scraping by with a league average offense.

This makes me wonder, though, because the spacing isn't any worse than it was in Kobe's career. The Wolves are shooting 34.7% on 39.3 3PA/g.

In 2013, the Lakers were 3rd in 3PAr while rocking 24.6 3PA/g at 35.5%.

Naz Reid has been great; Randle has been a shade above average on O. Gobert is a fine ORB/lob threat/transition guy.

All that to say, Kobe has operated in that environment and was a 57% TS guy at 94.4 poss/g (Minny's at 97.2), without the 10% increase in FG% from 0-3 feet we've seen since 2004. League average there was 63.1% in 2013, and 69.4% so far this season. Kobe would be thriving even with the weaker league-relative spacing in this league, particularly with his array of mid-range moves and shooting proficiency.

I think he's actually quite well-suited to navigate this environment without a strong 3. Now, the degree to which he could distance himself from league average with that style remains to be seen, of course, but I think that worrying about the spacing on the Wolves isn't really the thing. Kobe wasn't a savant virtuoso with the PnR, but he could run it, and that's a big part of today's game which makes his life easier.

Food for thought, anyway. I don't think the Wolves would suddenly be the best O in the league, but I suspect they'd be better than 13th, and they might be a little more consistent on O as a result of Kobe's play. Maybe not too much, given how well Ant has been shooting and how much Kobe loved his long twos, but a little.

[70sFan]

Wolves get much worse.

You can't actually believe this

Of course I do.

Ant is basically like Kobe if he could shoot 3s, and was better on D. Wolves would be worse with Kobe's inferior spacing and inconsistent D.

And couldn't pass.
And couldn't finish anything inside 3P line effectively.
And turned the ball over a lot.
And had significantly less experience.

[rk2023]

Voted Wolves get moderately better (assuming you transplant 2008 Kobe and his exact skillset), but the real version of Kobe is he really intrigued to see on this Wolves team is 2001/03 - but modernized.

[One_and_Done]

Ant is shooting 587 TS% this year. Kobe has never has a TS% above 580.

Ant is averaging 4.7 TOs per 100, which is the worst mark of his career. Over his career it's 4.0 per 100. Kobe's career TOs per 100 is 4.3. I'm not seeing much difference.

Ant is a fine passer, though he could improve, but he's also a more willing passer. His per 100 assists are slightly less than Kobe typically has, but he touches the ball less too so we'd expect that.

Kobe's years of experience didn't seem to make him a better team mate, just look at his circus show to end his career.

Meanwhile, Ant could score more efficiently and was better on D. I'll take that guy.

[tsherkin]

Ant is shooting 587 TS% this year. Kobe has never has a TS% above 580.

Sure, in very different league environments, though. With very different team strategies. Comparing their raw TS% is sort of ridiculous.

Ant is averaging 4.7 TOs per 100, which is the worst mark of his career. Over his career it's 4.0 per 100. Kobe's career TOs per 100 is 4.3. I'm not seeing much difference.

Yeah, this is fair. Kobe's an 11.6 TOV% guy, compared to Ant at 12.2% (12.9% this year). It isn't a HUGE difference.

Meanwhile, Ant could score more efficiently

Wake me when he does. This is his first season of 100 TS+ or better, let's not forget. You're a big fan of saying we shouldn't presume about what a player MIGHT do, only looking at what they did, so...

[jjgp111292]

Are we doing a "relative TS% doesn't matter" thing now?

[70sFan]

Ant is shooting 587 TS% this year. Kobe has never has a TS% above 580.

It's settled in - 2025 LeBron is a better scorer than 2009 LeBron.

Ant is averaging 4.7 TOs per 100, which is the worst mark of his career. Over his career it's 4.0 per 100. Kobe's career TOs per 100 is 4.3. I'm not seeing much difference.

Ant is averaging 4.7 per100 and 12.9 TOV%, which is worse than Kobe in all seasons from 2001-10 period, with the exception of 2005.

Ant is a fine passer, though he could improve, but he's also a more willing passer. His per 100 assists are slightly less than Kobe typically has, but he touches the ball less too so we'd expect that.

Ant is very far from Kobe as a passer and playmaker and that's a fact. Maybe he will improve, for now he's not even close.

Kobe's years of experience didn't seem to make him a better team mate, just look at his circus show to end his career.

I thought we're comparing 2008, not 2016. Being experienced means that he's battle tested in long postseason runs at the highest stage.

Meanwhile, Ant could score more efficiently and was better on D. I'll take that guy.

Ant doesn't have a single scoring season even close to any of 2006-09 Kobe. Keep repeating how Ant is much better by having 1 percentage point higher TS% in an era when the whole league is significantly more efficient and Ant is not efficient at all, it makes your argument even worse.

[70sFan]

Are we doing a "relative TS% doesn't matter" thing now?

2025 James is much better scorer than 2009 version, you just can't argue otherwise.

[Fadeaway_J]

Are we doing a "relative TS% doesn't matter" thing now?

We are if our raison d'être is to vote against Kobe in every comparison.

[jjgp111292]

Are we doing a "relative TS% doesn't matter" thing now?

2025 James is much better scorer than 2009 version, you just can't argue otherwise.

I would say 2009 LeBron would scale up to today's game but I'm not a hagiographer.

[tsherkin]

Are we doing a "relative TS% doesn't matter" thing now?

2025 James is much better scorer than 2009 version, you just can't argue otherwise.

I would say 2009 LeBron would scale up to today's game but I'm not a hagiographer.

He isn't being serious; he's taking a crack at the ludicrous idea that you can compare a guy's raw TS% in 2025 and use that as any sort of benchmark against someone who's career started more than a quarter century ago.