RealGM

How would you rank them from 1-3?

2018 is by far the best offensively, so that disqualifies 1996 unless Jordan has elite defensive impact (doesn’t). Then it’s 1980 vs 2018, scoring is very close, I think Kareem was 30 on +10 (adjusted) and Lebron was 33 in +7.5. But, let alone playmaking, that’s the massive gap here. It’s just the defensive gap being massive as well, but is Kareem in 1980 that level of defender to override this version of a playmaker? I’d take LeBron.

In RS, I think it's pretty clearly Jordan > Kareem > James.

In postseason though, I think Jordan is clearly last and James vs Kareem is very close. People don't realize that Jabbar faced basically the best defensive opponents available and he just crushed all of them.

Lebron


Kareem
Jordan

70sFan wrote:In RS, I think it's pretty clearly Jordan > Kareem > James.

In postseason though, I think Jordan is clearly last and James vs Kareem is very close. People don't realize that Jabbar faced basically the best defensive opponents available and he just crushed all of them.

I agree with this.

‘96 Jordan by some distance at #1. Much better offensively and defensively than LeBron and anchored the greatest team ever. LeBron was never capable of anchoring an all time great team even in a weak East.

‘80 Kareem and then ‘18 LeBron but it’s interchangeable.

My answer here would differ depending on what one is asking. Best player in a vacuum or most accomplished season.

Best player in a vacuum I would say Kareem >> Jordan > Lebron. I know some will disagree but I'm just not that high on 2018 Lebron. He had a horrible defensive season where multiple metrics rank him among the worst in the league. He is clearly bleeding a lot of value on that end of the floor. He's also the only one of the three playing on a mediocre team so that naturally makes him put up bigger numbers. In that respect it's not an apples to apples comparison statistically. The Cavs' offense also didn't do very well in the PS outside of the Raptors series so it's hard to argue Lebron even from an offensive impact standpoint. I do think Kareem in 1980 was a better player than Jordan in 1996. It's not like it's not close but 1980 is largely indistinguishable from Kareem's peak while Jordan did lose a step from the first threepeat so it's still a clear gap. He definitely could have scored a lot more but I don't think this Jordan was capable of his peak performances like say the 1991 Finals or 1993 Finals. That's what he would need to get the nod over peak(ish) Kareem and I don't see it.

Most accomplished I would say Jordan > Kareem >>>> Lebron. Kareem should have had the Finals MVP in 1980 and pretty clearly so IMO but him missing the closeout game does take a bit away from his season. Jordan on the other hand led a 72-win team in the RS and then led them to an easy title in the PS. Lebron obviously accomplished much less so he's dead last.

In a vacuum Lebrons clearly first, think MJ and Kareem are close. Kareem was cooking however as 70sFan said.

Djoker wrote:My answer here would differ depending on what one is asking. Best player in a vacuum or most accomplished season.

Best player in a vacuum I would say Kareem >> Jordan > Lebron. I know some will disagree but I'm just not that high on 2018 Lebron. He had a horrible defensive season where multiple metrics rank him among the worst in the league. He is clearly bleeding a lot of value on that end of the floor. He's also the only one of the three playing on a mediocre team so that naturally makes him put up bigger numbers. In that respect it's not an apples to apples comparison statistically. The Cavs' offense also didn't do very well in the PS outside of the Raptors series so it's hard to argue Lebron even from an offensive impact standpoint. I do think Kareem in 1980 was a better player than Jordan in 1996. It's not like it's not close but 1980 is largely indistinguishable from Kareem's peak while Jordan did lose a step from the first threepeat so it's still a clear gap. He definitely could have scored a lot more but I don't think this Jordan was capable of his peak performances like say the 1991 Finals or 1993 Finals. That's what he would need to get the nod over peak(ish) Kareem and I don't see it.

Most accomplished I would say Jordan > Kareem >>>> Lebron. Kareem should have had the Finals MVP in 1980 and pretty clearly so IMO but him missing the closeout game does take a bit away from his season. Jordan on the other hand led a 72-win team in the RS and then led them to an easy title in the PS. Lebron obviously accomplished much less so he's dead last.

Which metrics painted 2018 LeBron as among the worst in the league defensively?

Special_Puppy wrote:

Djoker wrote:My answer here would differ depending on what one is asking. Best player in a vacuum or most accomplished season.

Best player in a vacuum I would say Kareem >> Jordan > Lebron. I know some will disagree but I'm just not that high on 2018 Lebron. He had a horrible defensive season where multiple metrics rank him among the worst in the league. He is clearly bleeding a lot of value on that end of the floor. He's also the only one of the three playing on a mediocre team so that naturally makes him put up bigger numbers. In that respect it's not an apples to apples comparison statistically. The Cavs' offense also didn't do very well in the PS outside of the Raptors series so it's hard to argue Lebron even from an offensive impact standpoint. I do think Kareem in 1980 was a better player than Jordan in 1996. It's not like it's not close but 1980 is largely indistinguishable from Kareem's peak while Jordan did lose a step from the first threepeat so it's still a clear gap. He definitely could have scored a lot more but I don't think this Jordan was capable of his peak performances like say the 1991 Finals or 1993 Finals. That's what he would need to get the nod over peak(ish) Kareem and I don't see it.

Most accomplished I would say Jordan > Kareem >>>> Lebron. Kareem should have had the Finals MVP in 1980 and pretty clearly so IMO but him missing the closeout game does take a bit away from his season. Jordan on the other hand led a 72-win team in the RS and then led them to an easy title in the PS. Lebron obviously accomplished much less so he's dead last.

Which metrics painted 2018 LeBron as among the worst in the league defensively?

Here are a few:

https://www.nbarapm.com/

D-LEBRON: -0.2 (301st)
D-DARKO: +0.9 (103rd)
D-RAPTOR: -1.7 (266th)
D-MAMBA: +0.9 (92nd)
2-Year D-RAPM (2017 + 2018): -1.2 (541st)
2-Year D-RAPM (2018 + 2019): -0.3 (416th)

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/2017-18/regular-season/

2018 RS D-RAPM: -1.78 (641st)
2018 PS D-RAPM: -0.74 (190th) -- note only 209 players in the PS

Note that negative values are really bad here.

I am with 70sfan on this one

96 Jordan
18 LeBron

80 Kareem

wafflzgod wrote:96 Jordan
18 LeBron

80 Kareem

Why Kareem last?