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Who is more versatile Olajuwon or AD. Versatility encompasses speed, quickness, general body movement, offensive and defensive overall skill involving inside and outside ability, defending different types of players such as bigger and stronger and smaller and faster players.

Could Olajuwon fit as PF as good as AD and vice versa?

It really depends on what you mean. Hakeem was more versatile on-ball scorer. Davis is definitely a better off-ball offensive player. Neither is a great passer. Hakeem was better at guarding bugs and they are comparable against perimeter guys in my opinion.

I don’t have AD with the advantage anywhere outside of maybe the 3pt shot. Hakeem was that good at his peak.

vxmike wrote:I don’t have AD with the advantage anywhere outside of maybe the 3pt shot. Hakeem was that good at his peak.

Davis is certainly a better off-ball player than Hakeem.

70sFan wrote:

vxmike wrote:I don’t have AD with the advantage anywhere outside of maybe the 3pt shot. Hakeem was that good at his peak.

Davis is certainly a better off-ball player than Hakeem.

The only reason this is true in retrospect is because they never asked Hakeem to play off-ball.

He absolutely would have been better if he had been asked to do it.

Hakeem is better at every single meaningful basketball skill. There's no comparison

I think OPs question is from a mostly defensive perspective

jasonxxx102 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

vxmike wrote:I don’t have AD with the advantage anywhere outside of maybe the 3pt shot. Hakeem was that good at his peak.

Davis is certainly a better off-ball player than Hakeem.

The only reason this is true in retrospect is because they never asked Hakeem to play off-ball.

He absolutely would have been better if he had been asked to do it.

Hakeem is better at every single meaningful basketball skill. There's no comparison

Davis is better lob threat, better cutter, better finisher inside, better off-ball mover. If Hakeem had these skills, he never showed that - even when he played next to ball-dominant Barkley.

70sFan wrote:

jasonxxx102 wrote:

70sFan wrote:Davis is certainly a better off-ball player than Hakeem.

The only reason this is true in retrospect is because they never asked Hakeem to play off-ball.

He absolutely would have been better if he had been asked to do it.

Hakeem is better at every single meaningful basketball skill. There's no comparison

Davis is better lob threat, better cutter, better finisher inside, better off-ball mover. If Hakeem had these skills, he never showed that - even when he played next to ball-dominant Barkley.

You’re confusing lack of skill with role limitations.

Who was throwing lobs to prime Hakeem? I mean it wasn’t even part of the gameplan. Same with cutting he wasn’t asked to do that in his role.

And I think you’re crazy if you believe AD was a better finisher than Hakeem. Dude might have the greatest inside touch of all time lol Hakeem was a magician with the ball in the paint

durantbird wrote:I think OPs question is from a mostly defensive perspective

No, overall

jasonxxx102 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

jasonxxx102 wrote:
The only reason this is true in retrospect is because they never asked Hakeem to play off-ball.

He absolutely would have been better if he had been asked to do it.

Hakeem is better at every single meaningful basketball skill. There's no comparison

Davis is better lob threat, better cutter, better finisher inside, better off-ball mover. If Hakeem had these skills, he never showed that - even when he played next to ball-dominant Barkley.

You’re confusing lack of skill with role limitations.

Who was throwing lobs to prime Hakeem? I mean it wasn’t even part of the gameplan. Same with cutting he wasn’t asked to do that in his role.

And I think you’re crazy if you believe AD was a better finisher than Hakeem. Dude might have the greatest inside touch of all time lol Hakeem was a magician with the ball in the paint

I am not, Hakeem is probably the weakest off-ball player of all top tier centers in the league history.

Hakeem's touch was better, but Davis is insane at finishing at the basket. Besides, Hakeem can't touch Jokic in terms of close range touch.

Hakeem's face up game was less developed as well. Even playing next to Ralph Sampson, they had Hakeem play the traditional role of back to the basket post scorer and defender. As the question is not who was better, but who is more capable of playing PF as well as center, Davis has actually played the 4 for much of his career, Hakeem has played very little at PF and is less practiced at face up scoring.

penbeast0 wrote:Hakeem's face up game was less developed as well. Even playing next to Ralph Sampson, they had Hakeem play the traditional role of back to the basket post scorer and defender. As the question is not who was better, but who is more capable of playing PF as well as center, Davis has actually played the 4 for much of his career, Hakeem has played very little at PF and is less practiced at face up scoring.

I think this actually has to do more with rules differences. Hakeem was quite adept faceup player for his time, but stricter ball-handling and traveling rules made it way tougher to be a faceup center in the 1980s than in 2020s.

Besides, Hakeem can't touch Jokic in terms of close range touch.

Is that a fact. Besides, how did Jokic get into this conversation?

This is Jokic's 10th season in the league. During this time (2015-16 to 2024-25) he shot a 60.9% 2pt FG% when the league average C shot a 57.7% 2pt FG%. That's only 3% better than just the league average C.

Olajuwon's first decade in the league (1985-86 to 1994-95) he shot a 51.8% 2pt FG% when the league average C shot a 49.7% 2pt FG%. That's 2% better than the league average C.

From 1985-86 to 1994-95 there were 89 Cs that played 3000+ minutes, and one - and only one - shot better than 60% on 2s (Gilmore).

From 2015-16 to 2024-25 there were 94 Cs that played 3000+ minutes, 33 shot better than 60% on 2s, 29 shot better than Jokic on 2s, and 4 shot 70% or better on 2s (Robert Wiliams, Walker Kessler, Danile Gafford, Mitchell Robinson).

Yet you feel Olajuwon can't touch Jokic in terms of close range touch?

Tell us maestro, what does Jokic shoot on 2s if he played when Olajuwon did, from 1985-86 to 1994-95?

kcktiny wrote:Is that a fact. Besides, how did Jokic get into this conversation?

Someone said Hakeem has GOAT touch in the paint, I don't see any reason to put Hakeem ahead of Jokic.

This is Jokic's 10th season in the league. During this time (2015-16 to 2024-25) he shot a 60.9% 2pt FG% when the league average C shot a 57.7% 2pt FG%. That's only 3% better than just the league average C.

Cool and do you know why centers average got significantly better? Because the big group of centers are rim runners who did the most of their work at the rim on assisted shots.

Now, if you want to compare Jokic touch in the paint outside restricted area, Jokic destroys the league average among centers:

2023/24 Jokic: 61.7 FG% on 6.8 FGA
2023/24 centers: 47.6 FG% on 3.9 FGA

Olajuwon's first decade in the league (1985-86 to 1994-95) he shot a 51.8% 2pt FG% when the league average C shot a 49.7% 2pt FG%. That's 2% better than the league average C.

Ok, but that's not what I meant by touch inside the paint. My tracking data from 35 games from 1993 and 1994 seasons gives Hakeem the average of 48 FG% from 3-10 feet zone, which is very good considering his volume, but it's not even close to Jokic who is consistently around the 60% mark from that range. Of course you can argue that my sample is not representative (Hakeem shot 52% from the field in my tracked games, so it looks like it is representative) or you can just ignore 35 games sample (almost half of the season worth) but I don't think you have anything else outside of this or post-1996 numbers (which also don't show Hakeem to be close to him).

Yet you feel Olajuwon can't touch Jokic in terms of close range touch?

Unless you think "close range touch" should include dunks and open layups (which you can clarify), I don't see any reason to put Hakeem on Jokic's level. I don't see any evidence that he ever produced ~60% efficiency from the paint outside the rim.

Tell us maestro, what does Jokic shoot on 2s if he played when Olajuwon did, from 1985-86 to 1994-95?

Why such an unnecessary language? I thought we're talking here to gain some knowledge, not to win debates.

I don't know what would Jokic shoot in the 1980s and 1990s, but I don't see any reason to think he'd be close to Hakeem. Jokic takes a lot of very tough, contested shots inside the paint. His touch in the paint is incredible, I don't think anyone can rival him from that era outside of Kevin McHale or old Kareem in that regard. Hakeem had excellent touch, but he's not on Jokic level in that regard. Very few players in the league history could ever compete with Jokic on paint shots efficiency.

Cool and do you know why centers average got significantly better? Because the big group of centers are rim runners who did the most of their work at the rim on assisted shots.

This is patently false. Do some homework.

Here's 2pt FG%s by position for 1985-86 to 1994-95 compared to 2015 to 2024-25:

pos__8586-9495__1516-2425__diff

C______49.8%______57.7%___7.9%
PF_____49.9%______53.8%___3.9%
SF_____48.9%______51.6%___2.7%
SG_____48.1%______49.4%___1.3%
PG_____47.8%______48.7%___0.9%

See a pattern here? All 2pt FG%s by position increased, from 3-4 decades ago to this recent decade, and all by height/position.

But the increase in C 2pt FG% is disproportionately much higher than all the other positions, eight times higher than the increase compared to PGs and twice that compared to PFs.

Why do you think that is?

Rules changes and their implementation (by the refs) is part of this, but the simple fact is that there were far better defensive Cs in the the first decade (8586-9495) than in the most recent (1516-2425), and in particular far better shot blocking Cs.

From 1985-86 to 1994-95 among Cs there were 76 seasons of 150+ blocked shots, 51 seasons of 200+ blocks, 28 seasons of 250 blocks, 16 of 300+ blocks, and 3 seasons of 350+ blocks, all by Cs.

That decade Mark Eaton blocked 300+ shots in a season 4 times, Manute Bol, Olajuwon, and David Robinson did so 3 times each, Mutombo 2 times, Ewing once.

From 2015-16 to 2024-25 among Cs there were just 22 seasons of 150+ blocked shots, just 3 seasons of 200+ blocks by a C, and not a single season of a C with more than 269 blocks.

So in Jokic's (and any C of this decade, including Davis when he was at C) entire career he has never faced an opposing C that blocked as many as 300 shots in a season, only twice - just two times - during his career did a C blocked 250+ shots in a season (Whiteside, Wembanyama), and just three times blocked 200+ shots in a season.

As a matter of fact the drop in blocks/minute by Cs from the first decade to the most recent was twice what the drop was from PFs of the first decade to the recent one, and 4 times the drop by SFs from the first decade to the second.

So this statement:

Hakeem can't touch Jokic in terms of close range touch.

Is completely ignorant of the circumstances between the two compared decades. There were far better defenders/shot blockers among Cs from 1985-86 to 1994-95 compared to 2015-16 to 2024-25, and that is the key reason why there is an 8% difference in 2pt FG% between the average Cs of the two decades - just a 49.7% 2pt FG% for Cs from 1984-85 to 1994-95 compared to a 57.7% 2pt FG% for Cs from 2015-16 to 2024-25.

And I think you’re crazy if you believe AD was a better finisher than Hakeem. Dude might have the greatest inside touch of all time lol Hakeem was a magician with the ball in the paint

This is in fact is the truth. Olajuwon was considered one of the greatest inside and unstoppable scorers of the 80s and 90s. That first decade that he played he scored more 2pters and attempted more FTAs than did any other C during that time.

Someone said Hakeem has GOAT touch in the paint, I don't see any reason to put Hakeem ahead of Jokic.

Olajuwon's ability to score 2pters and draw fouls from close range and get to the FT line was far greater than Jokic's. When you take into consideration the far better defenders/shot blockers he faced in his era, and the fact that he drew far more fouls and scored far more points at the FT line - Jokic has never attempted as many as 470 FTAs in a season, Olajuwon had 7 seasons of 530-650 FTAs his first decade - this isn't much of a discussion.

I don't see any reason to put Hakeem on Jokic's level. I don't see any evidence that he ever produced ~60% efficiency from the paint outside the rim.

Even once told that the differences of the eras you still don't get it. Next president of the Jokic fanboy fan club. Ignore any evidence that puts your boy in a dim light.

I thought we're talking here to gain some knowledge, not to win debates.

How's your knowledge now of the differences between the two decades being discussed, especially when it comes to Cs?

I don't know what would Jokic shoot in the 1980s and 1990s,

Of course you don't. You talk of all the film you watch from earlier decades but don't want to acknowledge what you saw of the great defensive Cs of that era when it comes to Jokic.

but I don't see any reason to think he'd be close to Hakeem.

I agree. He wouldn't be close to Olajuwon as a shooter in close to the basket. He'd be worse. If there was one thing we all know is how cat quick Olajuwon was in the post and on the baseline.

That is something Jokic definitely is not. He'd be eaten alive by the great shot blockers of that day, just like the great shot blockers of that day ate up all the Cs of that time.

Just like Jokic now is not one of the best shooting Cs in the league, not even close. Only twice has he shot as high as 63% on 2s in a season.

Jarrett Allen has 5 seasons of shooting 65%+ on 2s, and this season is shooting 70% on 2s. Has a career 18.1 pts/40min scoring rate.

Daniel Gafford has a career 71% 2pt FG%, and he has a career 18.6 pts/40min scoring rate.

I don't think anyone can rival him from that era

So, how would Jokic shoot going up against the likes of Manute Bol, or Mark Eaton, or Dikembe Mutombo, or David Robinson or Olajuwon himself on a regular basis?

Hakeem had excellent touch, but he's not on Jokic level in that regard.

You act like Jokic is some great shooter. He has a career 60.9% 2pt FG%. That's not even close to the best Cs of the past decade.

I count 7 Cs the past decade that shot better on 2s than did Jokic that played 10,000+ minutes each the past decade - Deandre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, Jarrett Allen, Jakob Poeltl, Clint Capela, Dwight Howard, and Ivica Zubac.

But you make it sound like he is some shooting savant. He is not - in his career he has shot a 2pt FG% just 3% higher than what the league average C shot this past decade.

Very few players in the league history could ever compete with Jokic on paint shots efficiency.

There's 7 Cs right there that shot better than Jokic. And like Jokic they shot like that because they didn't have to face the defensive Cs/shot blockers that Olajuwon did his first decade in the league.

70sFan wrote:

jasonxxx102 wrote:

70sFan wrote:Davis is certainly a better off-ball player than Hakeem.

The only reason this is true in retrospect is because they never asked Hakeem to play off-ball.

He absolutely would have been better if he had been asked to do it.

Hakeem is better at every single meaningful basketball skill. There's no comparison

Davis is better lob threat, better cutter, better finisher inside, better off-ball mover. If Hakeem had these skills, he never showed that - even when he played next to ball-dominant Barkley.

You obviously never watched Olajuwon.
The Rockets won two championships with one play:
Throw it to Dream in the post.

If they tried to defend him with one guy, he’d beat him.
If they double teamed him, he would pass it to a shooter.

There was no ‘Olajuwon off-ball’ plays.
The ball always went through him.

All you are proving is that AD needed someone else to create shots for him, while Dream created shots for his teammates and himself.

And he’s better than AD at everything.

kcktiny wrote:This is patently false. Do some homework.

Here's 2pt FG%s by position for 1985-86 to 1994-95 compared to 2015 to 2024-25:

pos__8586-9495__1516-2425__diff

C______49.8%______57.7%___7.9%
PF_____49.9%______53.8%___3.9%
SF_____48.9%______51.6%___2.7%
SG_____48.1%______49.4%___1.3%
PG_____47.8%______48.7%___0.9%

See a pattern here? All 2pt FG%s by position increased, from 3-4 decades ago to this recent decade, and all by height/position.

But the increase in C 2pt FG% is disproportionately much higher than all the other positions, eight times higher than the increase compared to PGs and twice that compared to PFs.

Why do you think that is?

I already answered why it is - because the strategy is more optimized now, centers don't post up nearly as often as back then, but they get plenty of open looks inside due to heavy P&R approach. Nothing I said in my previous post is "false" and you didn't prove me wrong here.

Rules changes and their implementation (by the refs) is part of this, but the simple fact is that there were far better defensive Cs in the the first decade (8586-9495) than in the most recent (1516-2425), and in particular far better shot blocking Cs.

From 1985-86 to 1994-95 among Cs there were 76 seasons of 150+ blocked shots, 51 seasons of 200+ blocks, 28 seasons of 250 blocks, 16 of 300+ blocks, and 3 seasons of 350+ blocks, all by Cs.

That decade Mark Eaton blocked 300+ shots in a season 4 times, Manute Bol, Olajuwon, and David Robinson did so 3 times each, Mutombo 2 times, Ewing once.

From 2015-16 to 2024-25 among Cs there were just 22 seasons of 150+ blocked shots, just 3 seasons of 200+ blocks by a C, and not a single season of a C with more than 269 blocks.

Have you ever wondered that the game being more spread out has something to do with that? Or do you genuinely believe that centers became somehow worse at blocking shots?

Next president of the Jokic fanboy fan club. Ignore any evidence that puts your boy in a dim light.

At this point there is no reason to continue this discussion.

How's your knowledge now of the differences between the two decades being discussed, especially when it comes to Cs?

You truly believe that you "got me" here? Like, are you serious?

Just like Jokic now is not one of the best shooting Cs in the league, not even close. Only twice has he shot as high as 63% on 2s in a season.

Jarrett Allen has 5 seasons of shooting 65%+ on 2s, and this season is shooting 70% on 2s. Has a career 18.1 pts/40min scoring rate.

Daniel Gafford has a career 71% 2pt FG%, and he has a career 18.6 pts/40min scoring rate.

You're just proving my point, you don't acknowledge how players like Allen or Gafford scores inside and you compare their raw FG% even though they mostly dunk the ball, while Jokic takes and makes contested hook shots, fadeaways and floaters. I already said that in the previous post, but you somehow failed to acknowledge that.

So, how would Jokic shoot going up against the likes of Manute Bol, or Mark Eaton, or Dikembe Mutombo, or David Robinson or Olajuwon himself on a regular basis?

How about the rest of the league? I'm pretty sure Jokic would be scared of facing Ron Seikaly.

You act like Jokic is some great shooter. He has a career 60.9% 2pt FG%. That's not even close to the best Cs of the past decade.

I count 7 Cs the past decade that shot better on 2s than did Jokic that played 10,000+ minutes each the past decade - Deandre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, Jarrett Allen, Jakob Poeltl, Clint Capela, Dwight Howard, and Ivica Zubac.

Again, you are clueless.

Kiss of Death wrote:You obviously never watched Olajuwon.

Obviously, I just made up my Hakeem shooting data. I am here to talk about players I never watched.

The Rockets won two championships with one play:
Throw it to Dream in the post.

If they tried to defend him with one guy, he’d beat him.
If they double teamed him, he would pass it to a shooter.

There was no ‘Olajuwon off-ball’ plays.
The ball always went through him.

Of course I never watched Rockets, so you may ignore me - but Hakeem actually run off-screens to get open midrange shots off-ball. Rockets actually had plays for that. Hakeem also played out of the post frequently, my data sample shows that Hakeem scored around 17 out of 28 ppg from the post. Do you know how he scored additional 11 ppg?

All you are proving is that AD needed someone else to create shots for him, while Dream created shots for his teammates and himself.

Playing off-ball is an actual skill.

And he’s better than AD at everything.

Better FT shooter as well?

kcktiny wrote:

Cool and do you know why centers average got significantly better? Because the big group of centers are rim runners who did the most of their work at the rim on assisted shots.

You act like Jokic is some great shooter. He has a career 60.9% 2pt FG%. That's not even close to the best Cs of the past decade.

I count 7 Cs the past decade that shot better on 2s than did Jokic that played 10,000+ minutes each the past decade - Deandre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, Jarrett Allen, Jakob Poeltl, Clint Capela, Dwight Howard, and Ivica Zubac.

But you make it sound like he is some shooting savant. He is not - in his career he has shot a 2pt FG% just 3% higher than what the league average C shot this past decade.

Very few players in the league history could ever compete with Jokic on paint shots efficiency.

There's 7 Cs right there that shot better than Jokic. And like Jokic they shot like that because they didn't have to face the defensive Cs/shot blockers that Olajuwon did his first decade in the league.

One of the most insane takes of all time.
If you're actually arguing Deandre Jordan is a better shooter than Jokic you're insane.

Do you even know why exactly Deandre (or Howard or Gobert) have a higher FG%?

How does this play into the LeBron vs Jordan debate, though?