RealGM

Who was the better player if we only take into consideration NBA seasons for Gilmore?

Better career?
Better prime?
Better peak?

Honestly really curious on your take 70s.

I'd be incline to favor Gobert on all fronts given your NBA constraint, but that's also because I perceive Artis as taking a significant dip in athleticism in the NBA years compared to the ABA years, and maybe that's too simplistic.

At Artis' very best I tend to see him as being comparable as a shot blocker, stronger but still explosive, and with better touch on offense. I'd probably default to calling Gobert the better peak defender by a smidge, and favor peak ABA Artis as the more complete 2-way player.

Without the ABA years though, Artis just was a more limited, stationary, and closer to the basket on both ends player though. This paid off in incredible fg% years relative to his era, but it was harder to get the ball to him, he scored less, and he had a clearly lower defensive presence.

So, in answer to the OP question (ie. NBA only), I have to give it to Rudy. His defense is a consistent game changer; Artis was always the better scorer but not enough to make up that difference even hi his super efficient years.

Doctor MJ wrote:Honestly really curious on your take 70s.

I'd be incline to favor Gobert on all fronts given your NBA constraint, but that's also because I perceive Artis as taking a significant dip in athleticism in the NBA years compared to the ABA years, and maybe that's too simplistic.

At Artis' very best I tend to see him as being comparable as a shot blocker, stronger but still explosive, and with better touch on offense. I'd probably default to calling Gobert the better peak defender by a smidge, and favor peak ABA Artis as the more complete 2-way player.

My first instinct before looking through seasons was Artis, but I think this is spot on. He really did peak unbelievably young. Even his first 2 seasons in the ABA better than the following 3. He won MVP as a rookie and it was all slowly downhill from there. Once he moved to the NBA, he only even made all-defense once and it was second team. You can't really compare him to a 4 time DPOY. Offensively, they profile pretty similarly. Artis had a TS% of .643 on 19.7% USG while Gobert has a TS% of .673 on 15.8% USG. Gobert has an ORB% of 12.6 compared to 10.0 for Artis. It's hard to see where Artis would get anywhere near enough edge offensively to make up for a very large defensive gap.

I always thought 75 was his best year, not his 1st two as the league was much weaker then.

iggymcfrack wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:Honestly really curious on your take 70s.

I'd be incline to favor Gobert on all fronts given your NBA constraint, but that's also because I perceive Artis as taking a significant dip in athleticism in the NBA years compared to the ABA years, and maybe that's too simplistic.

At Artis' very best I tend to see him as being comparable as a shot blocker, stronger but still explosive, and with better touch on offense. I'd probably default to calling Gobert the better peak defender by a smidge, and favor peak ABA Artis as the more complete 2-way player.

My first instinct before looking through seasons was Artis, but I think this is spot on. He really did peak unbelievably young. Even his first 2 seasons in the ABA better than the following 3. He won MVP as a rookie and it was all slowly downhill from there. Once he moved to the NBA, he only even made all-defense once and it was second team. You can't really compare him to a 4 time DPOY. Offensively, they profile pretty similarly. Artis had a TS% of .643 on 19.7% USG while Gobert has a TS% of .673 on 15.8% USG. Gobert has an ORB% of 12.6 compared to 10.0 for Artis. It's hard to see where Artis would get anywhere near enough edge offensively to make up for a very large defensive gap.

Artis looks like a much more consistent finisher who isn't restricted to dunks and can create a tiny bit, though. I'd give him a clear offensive edge.

Still, Gobert's defensive edge makes it not really close to me (NBA-only), unless I'm missing something.

Jaivl wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:Honestly really curious on your take 70s.

I'd be incline to favor Gobert on all fronts given your NBA constraint, but that's also because I perceive Artis as taking a significant dip in athleticism in the NBA years compared to the ABA years, and maybe that's too simplistic.

At Artis' very best I tend to see him as being comparable as a shot blocker, stronger but still explosive, and with better touch on offense. I'd probably default to calling Gobert the better peak defender by a smidge, and favor peak ABA Artis as the more complete 2-way player.

My first instinct before looking through seasons was Artis, but I think this is spot on. He really did peak unbelievably young. Even his first 2 seasons in the ABA better than the following 3. He won MVP as a rookie and it was all slowly downhill from there. Once he moved to the NBA, he only even made all-defense once and it was second team. You can't really compare him to a 4 time DPOY. Offensively, they profile pretty similarly. Artis had a TS% of .643 on 19.7% USG while Gobert has a TS% of .673 on 15.8% USG. Gobert has an ORB% of 12.6 compared to 10.0 for Artis. It's hard to see where Artis would get anywhere near enough edge offensively to make up for a very large defensive gap.

Artis looks like a much more consistent finisher who isn't restricted to dunks and can create a tiny bit, though. I'd give him a clear offensive edge.

Still, Gobert's defensive edge makes it not really close to me (NBA-only), unless I'm missing something.

I mean, a young Artis was 7'2" with serious hops. I don't have a problem picking Gobert's defense, or picking Gobert overall based on defense, but make no mistake Artis was a dominant defensive anchor.

penbeast0 wrote:I always thought 75 was his best year, not his 1st two as the league was much weaker then.

I think picking '74-75 as his peak makes a lot of sense, and part of it is about adjusting for the ABA being better in '74-75 than '71-72.

However, it seems to me like '74-75 being the first year Kentucky chose to use Artis as their 1st scoring option over Issel seems like it more be about coaching strategy than it was about Artis being not good enough in previous years.

As always though, value your thoughts on the era and helping me see what I'm missing.

Doctor MJ wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:I always thought 75 was his best year, not his 1st two as the league was much weaker then.

I think picking '74-75 as his peak makes a lot of sense, and part of it is about adjusting for the ABA being better in '74-75 than '71-72.

However, it seems to me like '74-75 being the first year Kentucky chose to use Artis as their 1st scoring option over Issel seems like it more be about coaching strategy than it was about Artis being not good enough in previous years.

As always though, value your thoughts on the era and helping me see what I'm missing.

I agree that Hubie should get a lot of credit. He pushed Artis to take primacy. Artis was not a guy who pushed himself forward on the court or off, else he would probably be higher on my all time list with his level of size/athleticism/talent. To Artis's credit, he did step up and become more aggressive offensively and it led to more of a leadership role and Artis's only ring (conversely to Dan Issel's worst prime year and getting traded).

penbeast0 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:I always thought 75 was his best year, not his 1st two as the league was much weaker then.

I think picking '74-75 as his peak makes a lot of sense, and part of it is about adjusting for the ABA being better in '74-75 than '71-72.

However, it seems to me like '74-75 being the first year Kentucky chose to use Artis as their 1st scoring option over Issel seems like it more be about coaching strategy than it was about Artis being not good enough in previous years.

As always though, value your thoughts on the era and helping me see what I'm missing.

I agree that Hubie should get a lot of credit. He pushed Artis to take primacy. Artis was not a guy who pushed himself forward on the court or off, else he would probably be higher on my all time list with his level of size/athleticism/talent. To Artis's credit, he did step up and become more aggressive offensively and it led to more of a leadership role and Artis's only ring (conversely to Dan Issel's worst prime year and getting traded).

Issel's "worst prime year" leading to the best team results is...interesting.

Doctor MJ wrote:
Issel's "worst prime year" leading to the best team results is...interesting.

Probably a bigger factor is getting a league average efficiency defensive forward in Wil Jones to replace the tragically inefficient Wendell Ladner. Gilmore only shot 1 more shot a game and Issel was generally above league average, though not as efficient as Artis.

Doctor MJ wrote:Honestly really curious on your take 70s.

I think that is an interesting comparison because:

1. Gilmore, despite his ridiculous talent and physical gifts, never reached Gobert's defensive heights in the NBA.
2. Artis was more capable defender from physical standpoint and although he had his share of issues, I wouldn't call him stupid or stubborn player, which makes me think how much of that was caused by the horrible situation in Chicago in the late 1970s.
3. Even though their offensive numbers are relatively close, I don't think anyone should put the two close offensively. Gilmore was often overtasked and again, had his issues with turnovers and sometimes slow decision making, but he was better than Gobert at basically everything on offense, at least from skillset standpoint.

So I wonder if we give Gobert the edge based on the fact that Gilmore was in bad situation in Chicago. Some may bring up SAS years, but his first season there was his 12th pro season and he was 33/34 at that time, after an injury that slowed him down considerably. I am saying this as someone who on one hand is significantly higher on Rudy than most, but on the other may be biased towards Gilmore.

I'd be incline to favor Gobert on all fronts given your NBA constraint, but that's also because I perceive Artis as taking a significant dip in athleticism in the NBA years compared to the ABA years, and maybe that's too simplistic.

I don't think the athleticism decline happened before 1979 injury. Maybe there was some motor problem in the late 1970s, but again - how much of that is the dysfunctional situation he was put in? We'll never know I guess.

At Artis' very best I tend to see him as being comparable as a shot blocker, stronger but still explosive, and with better touch on offense. I'd probably default to calling Gobert the better peak defender by a smidge, and favor peak ABA Artis as the more complete 2-way player.

Often wonder how far 1977 Gilmore was from his ABA peak. It seems that he had to adjust to the new league during the first months, but he looked like good old A-Train at the end of the season. A shame we have so few Bulls games from 1976/77...

penbeast0 wrote:Without the ABA years though, Artis just was a more limited, stationary, and closer to the basket on both ends player though. This paid off in incredible fg% years relative to his era, but it was harder to get the ball to him, he scored less, and he had a clearly lower defensive presence.

That's a good description of 1980s Gilmore, but I don't think it's true for the late 1970s Artis.

iggymcfrack wrote:My first instinct before looking through seasons was Artis, but I think this is spot on. He really did peak unbelievably young. Even his first 2 seasons in the ABA better than the following 3. He won MVP as a rookie and it was all slowly downhill from there.

With all respect, that's basically stats-reading. Gilmore had huge numbers because the ABA was weaker in 1972 than 1975, but he was clearly a better player around 1975.

Once he moved to the NBA, he only even made all-defense once and it was second team. You can't really compare him to a 4 time DPOY.

I doubt Gobert would have won many DPOY awards with late 1970s Bulls team and I agree that Gobert is a better defender than NB Gilmore.

Offensively, they profile pretty similarly. Artis had a TS% of .643 on 19.7% USG while Gobert has a TS% of .673 on 15.8% USG. Gobert has an ORB% of 12.6 compared to 10.0 for Artis. It's hard to see where Artis would get anywhere near enough edge offensively to make up for a very large defensive gap.

Again, the way they play offense is vastly different and your averages include seasons when Gilmore was 35+. If you compare their best 8 years stretches the numbers look different:

1977-84 Gilmore: 20.7 USG%
2017-24 Gobert: 16.6 USG%

Their offensive game wasn't similar at all. Rudy peaked at 17.8 USG%, Artis had 8 NBA seasons better than that.

Gilmore could be a focal point offensively for a pretty good team and did well throughout his career, Gobert is just not close on that end and Gilmore was very good defensively also.

migya wrote:Gilmore could be a focal point offensively for a pretty good team and did well throughout his career, Gobert is just not close on that end and Gilmore was very good defensively also.

Gilmore could be a focal point offensively, but that wouldn't lead your offense very far. I think Gilmore would be perfect 2nd option next to the perimeter star, but unfortunately he didn't have that luxury until 1983 when he was past his physical prime.