RealGM

Who had the highest peak: Kawhi, Harden, Jokic?

I think its definitely Jokic.

Jokic has had a historic peak, and he isn't done yet. It's him without a doubt.

Kawhi by a long shot.

2019 he actually looked like Jordan. The Harden and Jokic stans won't want to hear it though but being elite on both sides actually matters in these types of discussions. Play some defense. Still wouldn't have been good as Kawhi though. /Que the laugh

JJ_PR wrote:Jokic has had a historic peak, and he isn't done yet. It's him without a doubt.

Who did he play against though? League caught up and he hasn't looked the same since. Did all that in a down year for the NBA. 2019 Raps would run laps around those Nuggets.

I think Kawhi for peak only

Jokic > Kawhi > Harden

Optms wrote:Kawhi by a long shot.

2019 he actually looked like Jordan. The Harden and Jokic stans won't want to hear it though but being elite on both sides actually matters in these types of discussions. Play some defense. Still wouldn't have been good as Kawhi though. /Que the laugh

Kawhis Peak is one year looking like MJ on both ends of the floor while NOT being anywhere close to a degenerate mad man in any sense. So as good of a player but somehow stronger and bigger in space without all the baggage and stardom and bad teammate BS that MJ had. But it was so brief that it almost doesnt count…. It’s like Derrick rose almost

Jokic might not even be at his peak yet… jokic has gotta better every year without working on his game in the offseason. I think its witchcraft… but either way… jokic more than likely will be better NEXT year - and then better the following year… this peak is one of the greatest peak runs ever - I think it rivals mjs and may be better than Lebrons run… because there were gaps where KD or Curry were close to or better than Lebron- and no one in 5 years is remotely close to Jokic… like how mj was

1. Kawhi
2. Jokic
3. Harden

In regular season it's flipped but in the playoffs Harden is awful and Jokic is pedestrian. I would say that Luka is peaking higher than all 3 of these guys.

Peak Kawhi was like robo-Jordan, so probably him. Harden likely last, even though he matches up well vs Jokic individually.

Optms wrote:Kawhi by a long shot.

2019 he actually looked like Jordan. The Harden and Jokic stans won't want to hear it though but being elite on both sides actually matters in these types of discussions. Play some defense. Still wouldn't have been good as Kawhi though. /Que the laugh

2017, sure, but was 2019 Kawhi "elite" on defense?

Jaivl wrote:

Optms wrote:Kawhi by a long shot.

2019 he actually looked like Jordan. The Harden and Jokic stans won't want to hear it though but being elite on both sides actually matters in these types of discussions. Play some defense. Still wouldn't have been good as Kawhi though. /Que the laugh

2017, sure, but was 2019 Kawhi "elite" on defense?

Elite by Harden and Joker standards, yes.

Optms wrote:

Jaivl wrote:

Optms wrote:Kawhi by a long shot.

2019 he actually looked like Jordan. The Harden and Jokic stans won't want to hear it though but being elite on both sides actually matters in these types of discussions. Play some defense. Still wouldn't have been good as Kawhi though. /Que the laugh

2017, sure, but was 2019 Kawhi "elite" on defense?

Elite by Harden and Joker standards, yes.

Yes, of course. But then, by those same standards, he isn't elite on offense anymore.

Jokic

Kawhi
Harden

Harden isn't in the convo but imo we needed to see more of 2017 Kawhi in order to possibly put him ahead of Jokic. Had he not gotten injured and taken those 17 Warriors to 6 games he might have a case(up big in game 1 when he went out).

Well, I'd say Jokic and I'd say all the data favors Jokic.

With Kawhi I get the theory of him due to his excellence on both sides of the ball, but despite this, Jokic's offensive genius was just too much to overcome.

I will say one suggestion to folks: Be careful indexing too much on the seeming perfection of a single season. The reality is typically - and I think in all relevant cases here - that that championship wasn't inevitable based on the player's play, and that surrounding years of a player's career probably saw him as basically the same guy.

Not saying it's unreasonable to define "peak" as "best season", but just keep in mind that if you look at peak in terms of just the most capable levels a player reached in his career, you can should typically look across a longer span than a single season - and that in the rare circumstance where you can't, this should lead to more uncertainty in your assessment rather than less.

To me, it's clearly Jokic, and I'm someone who abhors most instances when people respond "it's clearly X" to these types of questions.

I eliminate Harden due to his peak having a lack of postseason success, horrible defense, and inflated stats due to a gimmicky offense. I give him credit for durability and exquisite honing of his offensive skills to exploit officiating vulnerabilities, but that whistle didn't carry over to the postseason, and they literally changed the rules to close the cheat code he spammed. I actually like the current version of Harden better in multiple ways, certainly on defense. If he'd had this approach to the game during his peak, it would have served him better.

The Kawhi-Jokic peak comparison is tougher, and the surface-level analysis might lead me to pick Kawhi because of his superior defense overcoming Jokic's lead on offense. But despite his excellence, a deeper dive on Kawhi raises issues. First off, his defensive and offensive peaks don't coincide; he was a better defender earlier in his career and better offensively later. Then there is the durability issue. Many point to 2019 as his peak season, which fits nicely from a narrative standpoint because Toronto won the title, but he played only 60 games that season, not even enough to be eligible for RS awards now. To Doc MJ's point about whether "peak" is a single season or multiple seasons, I tend to go with multiple seasons of sustained production, and Kawhi is out way too much after 2016-17. Availability is his kryptonite.

I don't consider Jokic a good defender. He has good hands and great anticipation, and he's a very good rebounder (if you don't seal a defensive possession with a rebound, you've wasted defensive effort), but he's floor-bound. He doesn't stop opponents who are quick, jump well, or have a high motor. But his offensive genius is GOAT-level, he's durable, and he's a postseason riser. That makes him the clear choice in this comparison.

Jaivl wrote:

Optms wrote:Kawhi by a long shot.

2019 he actually looked like Jordan. The Harden and Jokic stans won't want to hear it though but being elite on both sides actually matters in these types of discussions. Play some defense. Still wouldn't have been good as Kawhi though. /Que the laugh

2017, sure, but was 2019 Kawhi "elite" on defense?

Most definitely not.
He also missed 24 [iirc] rs games, during which the Raps didn't miss a beat without him.

A far less playoff resilient team without him, but this was a team that was winning >50 games, winning in the first round and perhaps still going 7 against Philly in the 2nd even if Kawhi didn't exist. He was the lynchpin that pushed them over the top (though GS falling apart with injuries at exactly the wrong time helped, too); but this was a really good team even without him.

So title/no title (as usual) is a bit of a whatev argument. Teams win titles, not individuals.

Doctor MJ wrote:Well, I'd say Jokic and I'd say all the data favors Jokic.

With Kawhi I get the theory of him due to his excellence on both sides of the ball, but despite this, Jokic's offensive genius was just too much to overcome.

I will say one suggestion to folks: Be careful indexing too much on the seeming perfection of a single season. The reality is typically - and I think in all relevant cases here - that that championship wasn't inevitable based on the player's play, and that surrounding years of a player's career probably saw him as basically the same guy.

Not saying it's unreasonable to define "peak" as "best season", but just keep in mind that if you look at peak in terms of just the most capable levels a player reached in his career, you can should typically look across a longer span than a single season - and that in the rare circumstance where you can't, this should lead to more uncertainty in your assessment rather than less.

Jokic has 1 title, and right now that's not looking like it'll change any time soon. I note that not as someone who counts rings, but as someone who has long said Jokic has some weaknesses to his game that put a ceiling on your team defence. If Jokic's impact was as big as the advanced stats suggest, we'd see it translate more in the results.

Over the last 3 seasons the Nuggets have won 53, 57 & 50 games, and are likely a 2nd round or worse exit 2/3 years. The year they won they had a favourable playoff slate and didn't beat anyone who mattered. Jokic has had ample help if he's really bringing GOAT level impact. That's not an impact I associate with a GOAT peak candidate

trex_8063 wrote:

Jaivl wrote:

Optms wrote:Kawhi by a long shot.

2019 he actually looked like Jordan. The Harden and Jokic stans won't want to hear it though but being elite on both sides actually matters in these types of discussions. Play some defense. Still wouldn't have been good as Kawhi though. /Que the laugh

2017, sure, but was 2019 Kawhi "elite" on defense?

Most definitely not.
He also missed 24 [iirc] rs games, during which the Raps didn't miss a beat without him.

A far less playoff resilient team without him, but this was a team that was winning >50 games, winning in the first round and perhaps still going 7 against Philly in the 2nd even if Kawhi didn't exist. He was the lynchpin that pushed them over the top (though GS falling apart with injuries at exactly the wrong time helped, too); but this was a really good team even without him.

So title/no title (as usual) is a bit of a whatev argument. Teams win titles, not individuals.

While I think peak Kawhi is 2017, and I kind of agree, he certainly looked pretty elite guarding Giannis those playoffs.