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Who would you rather build your team around?

Oscar had a game like Jimmy Butler in terms of what shots he was looking for (combined with Haliburton level+ passing); very valuable but Curry's game is the gold standard for the pace and space, 3 point shot spamming proto-modern offense. Oscar in Oscar's day would be just as clearly the more valuable player.

Who would you rather build your team around?

Both players have legitimate reasons for being called the best guard of their respective eras.

However -

Oscar averaged playing 74-75 games and 3135 minutes a season (42 min/g).

Steph averaged playing 64 games and 2186 minutes a season (34 min/g).

For one game or maybe one series I can see why one might take Steph.

But to build a team around? It's Oscar and it's not even close.

Everyone here knows what a great shooter Curry was/is. But I bet most don't know that the first decade (1960-61 to 1969-70, all with the Royals) Robertson played in the NBA he not only scored far more points than did any other guard but he also shot far better than did any other guard that played even just half of those seasons.

He was the best shooter among all guards for a full decade.

He shot a 48.9% 2pt FG% over that decade. Next best (of those that played 5+ seasons over that decade) was Jerry West at 47.2%, Dick Barnett at 46.3%, and just 4 other guards that shot between 45%-46% on 2s that played even half those seasons. Take away the shooting of Robertson and West and all other guards combined shot just a 42.6% 2pt FG% that decade.

And although Oscar in his career played two less seasons than Steph did, he grabbed close to 3000 more rebounds, threw for 3000+ more assists, attempted over twice as many FTs, while scoring more points.

Give me Oscar at 3135 minutes a season as opposed to Steph at 2186 minutes all day every day.

Interesting thoughts.

So, Oscar was a powerfully-built 6'6 guard with a jumper, though he preferred to shoot in close. In his actual career with Cincinnati, he was a 57.2% TS player, or 117 TS+. Obviously, I don't think that deviation from league average would maintain, but he was a guy who hit a crapload of shots and drew a lot of fouls while crushing it at the line. He had four seasons with Cinci which would be above league-average efficiency in 2025.

And then you can talk about his rebounding and his passing on top of that, right?

He's a dude who I think would translate well, even without 3pt shooting. He had pretty good range in his day, was a good FT shooter. It isn't hard to project him with at least a 35% 3pt shot, which isn't even all that in today's game, but would strongly contribute to his play as an elite scorer.

There's a 0% chance that he'd play the same kind of minutes in today's game, but that's okay. He was a durable dude, and he'd probably look even better at higher usage and 36 mpg than he did in his day.

Now, average wise, it's worth remembering Cinci was playing at like 115-120 possessions per game, and his minutes inflated him. Oscar was a 22/6.5/8 guy, roughly, PER36 in his actual career, but if you figure that as a base and then consider the higher usage in lower minutes of today's game, I think he comes out nicely as a helio-ish type player in the modern game.

The ultimate arbiter would be how high he could take his efficiency. Younger Steph was an absolute savage, and one of the best we've ever seen in terms of offensive impact, but I wanted to take a second to at least talk about how awesome Oscar was and that he'd probably translate quite well.

I think if you are going to choose its definitely Curry simply because he's the safer and more proven pick for this era but its possible that Oscar with a fully developed 3 pt shot(if he can shoot them at 37-38% on somewhat high volume) would be more impactful. That's how I see it and obviously its not a given that Oscar would shoot them that well but we'll never know. I think if Magic could develop a 3 pt shot then Oscar likely could as well. Oscar's durability and physical advantages also speak for themselves as well.

Curry and it's not even remotely close.

tsherkin wrote:Interesting thoughts.

So, Oscar was a powerfully-built 6'6 guard with a jumper, though he preferred to shoot in close. In his actual career with Cincinnati, he was a 57.2% TS player, or 117 TS+. Obviously, I don't think that deviation from league average would maintain, but he was a guy who hit a crapload of shots and drew a lot of fouls while crushing it at the line. He had four seasons with Cinci which would be above league-average efficiency in 2025.

And then you can talk about his rebounding and his passing on top of that, right?

He's a dude who I think would translate well, even without 3pt shooting. He had pretty good range in his day, was a good FT shooter. It isn't hard to project him with at least a 35% 3pt shot, which isn't even all that in today's game, but would strongly contribute to his play as an elite scorer.

There's a 0% chance that he'd play the same kind of minutes in today's game, but that's okay. He was a durable dude, and he'd probably look even better at higher usage and 36 mpg than he did in his day.

Now, average wise, it's worth remembering Cinci was playing at like 115-120 possessions per game, and his minutes inflated him. Oscar was a 22/6.5/8 guy, roughly, PER36 in his actual career, but if you figure that as a base and then consider the higher usage in lower minutes of today's game, I think he comes out nicely as a helio-ish type player in the modern game.

The ultimate arbiter would be how high he could take his efficiency. Younger Steph was an absolute savage, and one of the best we've ever seen in terms of offensive impact, but I wanted to take a second to at least talk about how awesome Oscar was and that he'd probably translate quite well.

Name me the star guard in today's NBA who can't shoot the 3.

One_and_Done wrote:Name me the star guard in today's NBA who can't shoot the 3.

This isn't relevant to what I wrote. I projected a semi-competent 3 from him based on his actual shooting proficiency.

tsherkin wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Name me the star guard in today's NBA who can't shoot the 3.

This isn't relevant to what I wrote. I projected a semi-competent 3 from him based on his actual shooting proficiency.

I bolded the part I was responding to.

One_and_Done wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Name me the star guard in today's NBA who can't shoot the 3.

This isn't relevant to what I wrote. I projected a semi-competent 3 from him based on his actual shooting proficiency.

I bolded the part I was responding to.

I was speaking in terms of his efficiency. Suppose I should have been clearer, fair enough.

One_and_Done wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Interesting thoughts.

So, Oscar was a powerfully-built 6'6 guard with a jumper, though he preferred to shoot in close. In his actual career with Cincinnati, he was a 57.2% TS player, or 117 TS+. Obviously, I don't think that deviation from league average would maintain, but he was a guy who hit a crapload of shots and drew a lot of fouls while crushing it at the line. He had four seasons with Cinci which would be above league-average efficiency in 2025.

And then you can talk about his rebounding and his passing on top of that, right?

He's a dude who I think would translate well, even without 3pt shooting. He had pretty good range in his day, was a good FT shooter. It isn't hard to project him with at least a 35% 3pt shot, which isn't even all that in today's game, but would strongly contribute to his play as an elite scorer.

There's a 0% chance that he'd play the same kind of minutes in today's game, but that's okay. He was a durable dude, and he'd probably look even better at higher usage and 36 mpg than he did in his day.

Now, average wise, it's worth remembering Cinci was playing at like 115-120 possessions per game, and his minutes inflated him. Oscar was a 22/6.5/8 guy, roughly, PER36 in his actual career, but if you figure that as a base and then consider the higher usage in lower minutes of today's game, I think he comes out nicely as a helio-ish type player in the modern game.

The ultimate arbiter would be how high he could take his efficiency. Younger Steph was an absolute savage, and one of the best we've ever seen in terms of offensive impact, but I wanted to take a second to at least talk about how awesome Oscar was and that he'd probably translate quite well.

Name me the star guard in today's NBA who can't shoot the 3.

TJ McConnell.

Of course, he's an athletic freak and better passer compared to Oscar.......oh, wait.... (green font implied)

trex_8063 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Interesting thoughts.

So, Oscar was a powerfully-built 6'6 guard with a jumper, though he preferred to shoot in close. In his actual career with Cincinnati, he was a 57.2% TS player, or 117 TS+. Obviously, I don't think that deviation from league average would maintain, but he was a guy who hit a crapload of shots and drew a lot of fouls while crushing it at the line. He had four seasons with Cinci which would be above league-average efficiency in 2025.

And then you can talk about his rebounding and his passing on top of that, right?

He's a dude who I think would translate well, even without 3pt shooting. He had pretty good range in his day, was a good FT shooter. It isn't hard to project him with at least a 35% 3pt shot, which isn't even all that in today's game, but would strongly contribute to his play as an elite scorer.

There's a 0% chance that he'd play the same kind of minutes in today's game, but that's okay. He was a durable dude, and he'd probably look even better at higher usage and 36 mpg than he did in his day.

Now, average wise, it's worth remembering Cinci was playing at like 115-120 possessions per game, and his minutes inflated him. Oscar was a 22/6.5/8 guy, roughly, PER36 in his actual career, but if you figure that as a base and then consider the higher usage in lower minutes of today's game, I think he comes out nicely as a helio-ish type player in the modern game.

The ultimate arbiter would be how high he could take his efficiency. Younger Steph was an absolute savage, and one of the best we've ever seen in terms of offensive impact, but I wanted to take a second to at least talk about how awesome Oscar was and that he'd probably translate quite well.

Name me the star guard in today's NBA who can't shoot the 3.

TJ McConnell.

Of course, he's an athletic freak and better passer compared to Oscar.......oh, wait.... (green font implied)

Wait, you said "star" guard.
OK: Russell Westbrook.

I'm biased as Oscar is one of my favorite players. He is basically taller CP3 with a post game. He would translate very well because he was the founding father of running the pick and roll very effectively. He had a very good mid range game and I'm confident he would be a good 3pt shooter if he was coming up today. And he was underrated off ball as he doesn't need the ball to be effective offensively

There's a 0% chance that he'd play the same kind of minutes in today's game

Maybe not the 3300 minutes/season and 44 min/g he played over a full decade with Cincinnati, but there's 100% chance he'd lead all guards in minutes played today. Easily. Supreme athlete, outstanding shooter, incredible durability, incredible foul-drawing ability (9.5 FTA/40min over a decade), and did all this while avoiding any key injury.

Arguably the greatest guard to ever play in the NBA.

it's worth remembering Cinci was playing at like 115-120 possessions per game, and his minutes inflated him

Of course they did - and to his credit. Imagine how incredibly good he had to be to not only play all those minutes but to score all those points while also shooting better than any guard in the league and drawing fouls at will.

The only guard to play more 3000+ minute seasons than Oscar did (9) was Michael Jordan (11). And Jordan is the only guard in 3000+ minute seasons to score more points than Robertson.

its possible that Oscar with a fully developed 3 pt shot(if he can shoot them at 37-38% on somewhat high volume) would be more impactful

Robertson played through the age of 34. The only guard to attempt more FTs than Oscar through that age was Kobe Bryant. Bryant only attempted 1/5 of his FGAs as 3s through that age, and hit them at only 33.6%. Why would Oscar have to be a really good 3pt shooter and attempt a lot of 3s if Bryant didn't, when Bryant is in the HOF? Through the age of 34 they scored the same (25.5 vs. 25.7 pts/g), Oscar the better shooter compared to peers, was the better rebounder, threw for 4000 more assists through that age.

Oscar would be just fine today as a great player without being some kind of 3pt savant.

Curry and it's not even remotely close.

It's clear you have no clue who Oscar Robertson was as a player.

Name me the star guard in today's NBA who can't shoot the 3.

Name a star guard today that scores/shoots better than all other guards, draws the most fouls, rebounds best among all guards, and throws for the most assists, like Oscar Robertson did.

trex_8063 wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Name me the star guard in today's NBA who can't shoot the 3.

TJ McConnell.

Of course, he's an athletic freak and better passer compared to Oscar.......oh, wait.... (green font implied)

Wait, you said "star" guard.
OK: Russell Westbrook.

Russ isn't a star anymore, and in the year he unjustifiably won MVP he shot 343. from the 3pt line. Russell playing well today relies very much on him being able to hit the 3pt shot to at least some level. Even Westbrick's career 3pt % is over 30%. And while McConnell isn't comfortable spamming 3s, if you leave him wide open he will hit them as his career 345 3pt% attested to.

Steph Curry. His playstyle has a higher peak. Being able to playmake without the ball is such a valuable skill in addition to being the best shooter in all of history and having top 5 handles ever.

kcktiny wrote:Maybe not the 3300 minutes/season and 44 min/g he played over a full decade with Cincinnati, but there's 100% chance he'd lead all guards in minutes played today. Easily. Supreme athlete, outstanding shooter, incredible durability, incredible foul-drawing ability (9.5 FTA/40min over a decade), and did all this while avoiding any key injury.

I'd expect him to be durable and logging 36+ mpg pretty consistently, yes. But as with most guys in the 60s, the raw numbers and pace do need to be considered to at least some degree. Oscar was amazing, I wasn't trying to take away from that, just adding context.

Of course they did - and to his credit. Imagine how incredibly good he had to be to not only play all those minutes but to score all those points while also shooting better than any guard in the league and drawing fouls at will.

Again, this is about adding context to numbers for expectations. Basically everyone in the league was playing those kinds of minutes, it was the norm for the time and part of why their careers were shorter. And that pace opened up a lot of transition offense. Of course, Oscar was head and shoulders above most of his peers in terms of guard offense during his time, which is why he's the only guy to interrupt Wilt and Russ reigning over the MVP award, after all.

Robertson played through the age of 34. The only guard to attempt more FTs than Oscar through that age was Kobe Bryant. Bryant only attempted 1/5 of his FGAs as 3s through that age, and hit them at only 33.6%. Why would Oscar have to be a really good 3pt shooter and attempt a lot of 3s if Bryant didn't, when Bryant is in the HOF? Through the age of 34 they scored the same (25.5 vs. 25.7 pts/g), Oscar the better shooter compared to peers, was the better rebounder, threw for 4000 more assists through that age.

Oscar would be just fine today as a great player without being some kind of 3pt savant.

This bit was from Cavsfan, but it's worth replying to.

Yep, it's quite possible that Oscar would "only" shoot around 34% from 3. It's hard to tell exactly how someone will translate, particularly if you're looking at ATB versus corner shooting, which is what Oscar would generally be doing. But 33-34% would be enough that you couldn't just leave him open there, which is fine. And as you say, he wouldn't need to be a crazy 3pt savant due to his ability to finish effectively inside the arc at a degree of efficiency which was absolutely wild. And of course he'd see a different look around the rim in today's spacing environment, which would only help him.

Oscar makes more sense for building "around," whereas Curry fits anywhere effortlessly.

I do like the bigger CP3 analogy.

One_and_Done wrote:Russ isn't a star anymore, and in the year he unjustifiably won MVP he shot 343. from the 3pt line. Russell playing well today relies very much on him being able to hit the 3pt shot to at least some level. Even Westbrick's career 3pt % is over 30%. And while McConnell isn't comfortable spamming 3s, if you leave him wide open he will hit them as his career 345 3pt% attested to.

Russ was a star in the space and pace era. The league averaged >22 3pa/game in ALL of his three most dominant years, and 27.0 3pa/game in the year he won MVP. And he was an All-Star was recently as '20, when teams took an average of 34.1 3pa/game (they averaged anywhere from 34.2 to 35.2 from '21 to '24, before jumping to 37.6 in '25 [still not a massive difference]).

His MVP year was a bit of an outlier for him as a shooter. He's a career 30.5% from trey, and I note that even in the years he was a "star" [basically every year from roughly '11 to '20], he was collectively just 30.9% from 3pt (only 30.06% in the other NINE years excluding the MVP year).

That's an eFG% of 45.1%.

If that constitutes being able to "shoot the three" to you, that's a pretty darn low bar to clear.
Ditto TJ's 34.5% on rare, mostly wide open three's.

I mean, are we [you] really going to suggest that Oscar---who was a career 83.8% FT shooter and career 48.5% FG% despite a steady diet of shots in the 16-23' range (where he likely hit >40% [**see below])---couldn't shoot at least 30% on volume from 3pt? Or 34.5% on RARE WIDE OPEN 3's?

ESPECIALLY if allowed better coaching on shot mechanics [product of era] and gearing his game toward the 3pt era [also product of era]???


**I have just under six Oscar games tracked from '66-'72; 25% of his FGA came from outside 16' (contested, mostly off the dribble). He made 40% from 16-23', despite these games representing a VERY off sample for him: just 38.1% from the field, total, in these games (he was collectively 49.0% from the field in those same years overall).

trex_8063 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Russ isn't a star anymore, and in the year he unjustifiably won MVP he shot 343. from the 3pt line. Russell playing well today relies very much on him being able to hit the 3pt shot to at least some level. Even Westbrick's career 3pt % is over 30%. And while McConnell isn't comfortable spamming 3s, if you leave him wide open he will hit them as his career 345 3pt% attested to.

Russ was a star in the space and pace era. The league averaged >22 3pa/game in ALL of his three most dominant years, and 27.0 3pa/game in the year he won MVP. And he was an All-Star was recently as '20, when teams took an average of 34.1 3pa/game (they averaged anywhere from 34.2 to 35.2 from '21 to '24, before jumping to 37.6 in '25 [still not a massive difference]).

His MVP year was a bit of an outlier for him as a shooter. He's a career 30.5% from trey, and I note that even in the years he was a "star" [basically every year from roughly '11 to '20], he was collectively just 30.9% from 3pt (only 30.06% in the other NINE years excluding the MVP year).

That's an eFG% of 45.1%.

If that constitutes being able to "shoot the three" to you, that's a pretty darn low bar to clear.
Ditto TJ's 34.5% on rare, mostly wide open three's.

I mean, are we [you] really going to suggest that Oscar---who was a career 83.8% FT shooter and career 48.5% FG% despite a steady diet of shots in the 16-23' range (where he likely hit >40% [**see below])---couldn't shoot at least 30% on volume from 3pt? Or 34.5% on RARE WIDE OPEN 3's?

ESPECIALLY if allowed better coaching on shot mechanics [product of era] and gearing his game toward the 3pt era [also product of era]???


**I have just under six Oscar games tracked from '66-'72; 25% of his FGA came from outside 16' (contested, mostly off the dribble). He made 40% from 16-23', despite these games representing a VERY off sample for him: just 38.1% from the field, total, in these games (he was collectively 49.0% from the field in those same years overall).

Yes, Russell’s average 3pt shooting was around 30+%. That isn’t good, but it was more passable back then than now. Yes, Westbrook’s MVP season saw him shoot a much higher level from 3; that was my point. You know what isn’t good? Zero percent from 3. That’s what Oscar shot. We’ll come back to that though.

Russ was a star, but a very overrated star. As you admit, they shoot more 3s today; 22-27 threes a game is a huge drop off from 34-37. That’s a 26-68% increase from Westbrook’s day. In no world is that anything but a seismic shift in offensive diet. At any rate, I don’t think Russell is the example you want to be citing. With hindsight most people now recognise how hugely overrated he was in his prime, and many other indicators support that reality. If Russell had been drafted by Charlotte in 2018, people would likely see him as worse than LaMelo Ball or Trae. At least those guys can shoot. Westbrook was extremely fortunate to be drafted next to Kevin Durant, and to then have PG13 join him after 2017. Once he didn’t have those guys, things fell off fast (though some of that was also the league changing).

Coming back to Oscar though, I have made my position before very clear. I’ll explain it again, but you’ve seen me cover this ground many times before. I only give players credit for the skillset they actually possessed. It’s unfair to create hypothetical players who never existed except in my imagination, and rate them on a list of guys who actually did play. It’s the same reason I don’t include Bill Walton or Len Bias in my top 20, or “Shaq if he had been taught to shoot FTs” or “DeMarcus Cousins if he had his head on straight”. Maybe in a parallel timeline those things would all be different, and Duncan and KG would shoot 3s too, but that’s not actually what happened and it is unfair of us to rate players on things they never did. You could say that is “unfair”, I don’t really care if it is. I’m not trying to be “fair”, I’m trying to decide who was best at basketball. It might not have been fair that Len Bias died young, but that’s what happened. While it’s moot to me, I actually don’t think it’s unfair either, because it’s also not fair to punish modern players for not being born in a time when the league was full of scrubs who wouldn’t make it today.

You point to Oscar’s FT or midrange shooting like it should matter, but to me it really doesn’t. DeRozan has great midrange shooting, and he can’t hit 3s. Just because you can hit FTs or midrange shots, it doesn’t mean it’ll translate to 3pt shooting. There’s just no way to know, and my position is we can’t just grant that ability to a player unless they demonstrated it.

Going back to what is “fair”, it’s worth noting that these arguments saying such and such could shoot well from midrange, so he’d have been good from 3, always assume the older player will be able to develop the skill. They never assume that the older player will be a guy like Demar who couldn’t translate that skill. As I said, I’m not fussed about what is “fair”, but that strikes me as extremely unfair because the assumption is always that the older player will develop the skill they didn’t have when reality shows us that is often not the way it goes. It’s too bad that Demar didn’t play in the 70s, because if he did we’d be hearing from his fans that he’d have been an awesome 3pt shooter today.