RealGM

I asked it to form the best defensive 8-man rotation under modern NBA rules. The result:

Starters:
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Gary Payton

Bench:
Draymond Green
Dennis Rodman
Jrue Holiday

There were some guys I hoped would make it like D Rob and Moncrief, but overall pretty reasonable. As much as I love Jrue, I was a little surprised to see him crack the list. Rightly or wrongly, it seemed to favor recent players over the old timers (Bill Russell nowhere to be found ).

Thoughts?

Notable absences off the top of my head:
Russell
Wilt
Thurmond
Bobby Jones
Moncrief
Cooper
Stockton
D Rob
Mutombo
Bowen
Duncan
Artest
Ben Wallace
Kirilenko
Tony Allen
CP3
Kawhi
Gobert

I'm sure I'm missing some big ones

One problem I always have in these is the idea that big ego players would be fine coming off the bench. Some would be, some would not. So, with Rodman (who was a bench stalwart in Detroit for much of his stay), I'd have Bobby Jones and Michael Cooper (Tony Allen would also work if you like him better).

Other than that, Jordan focusing on defense is a good choice; Jordan as he actually played in the NBA was inconsistent in terms of effort though he did get stronger in the playoffs from what I've seen (mainly Bullets games in the regular season so maybe he just couldn't get excited about Cal Cheaney though he did go off defensively on LaBradford Smith in the famous trash talk revenge game). I prefer a guy who will give you full effort playing the Clippers on a Tuesday night in February so I'd go with someone with more consistent defensive effort at SG if I didn't care about offense.

I'd have Kidd over Payton, Russell over Hakeem, Draymond over Garnett as a starter, but can't say any of the other choices aren't perfectly legit.

I would include Seattle/Phoenix era Dennis Johnson in mine. His defensive impact during those years was absolutely phenomenal. 1978 was David Thompson's peak season and DJ clamped him in the Conference Finals and also went on to set records which still stand to this day for both most blocks in a Finals game by a guard with 7 and most blocks in a Finals series by a guard with 17. Then in 1979 his defense played a huge role in why he was Finals MVP, recording 9 steals and 11 blocks in 5 games, and in both 1980 and 1981 he received the most votes for NBA All-Defensive Team while also finishing top ten in MVP voting (5th in 1980, 8th in 1981) Magic Johnson and George Gervin have both been quoted as saying that DJ was the toughest defender they ever faced. He would be a lot of fun to watch in the modern game.

I think I'd have to have LeBron and Kidd on there for their IQ and switchability. Prime LeBron (and Jordan for that matter) primarily focused on defense would be sick.

Ol Roy wrote:I think I'd have to have LeBron and Kidd on there for their IQ and switchability. Prime LeBron (and Jordan for that matter) primarily focused on defense would be sick.

What is the history of Jordan and LeBron make you think they could work together and that one would be willing to play Robin?

penbeast0 wrote:

Ol Roy wrote:I think I'd have to have LeBron and Kidd on there for their IQ and switchability. Prime LeBron (and Jordan for that matter) primarily focused on defense would be sick.

What is the history of Jordan and LeBron make you think they could work together and that one would be willing to play Robin?

I don't think that would even be a concern on defense. Do you mean offensively?

Offensively, they have complimentary skills and I don't see why they couldn't be 1A/1B, and they'd be willing to do it because they like to win. Jordan played with a point forward in Pippen. LeBron played with scoring guards in Wade and Irving. Sharing offensive responsibilities among two primary ballhandlers is actually optimal. It's the three-headed monster lineups that don't really work.

Interesting how it restricts itself to following positions. Cannot tell me that for this exercise it is better defensively to play two guards than to play forwards / big wings like Lebron, George, Kawhi, Rodman, Artest, etc.

penbeast0 wrote:

Ol Roy wrote:I think I'd have to have LeBron and Kidd on there for their IQ and switchability. Prime LeBron (and Jordan for that matter) primarily focused on defense would be sick.

What is the history of Jordan and LeBron make you think they could work together and that one would be willing to play Robin?

Lebron is historically fine with co stars shooting as much or more than him (kirye, wade, davis, luka currently)

AEnigma wrote:Interesting how it restricts itself to following positions. Cannot tell me that for this exercise it is better defensively to play two guards than to play forwards / big wings like Lebron, George, Kawhi, Rodman, Artest, etc.

I’ll just say this, Chris Paul lit Kawhi on fire in a playoff series when defended by him in 2015.

Bigger guys typically don’t have the foot speed to really bother elite small guards.

ShotCreator wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Interesting how it restricts itself to following positions. Cannot tell me that for this exercise it is better defensively to play two guards than to play forwards / big wings like Lebron, George, Kawhi, Rodman, Artest, etc.

I’ll just say this, Chris Paul lit Kawhi on fire in a playoff series when defended by him in 2015.

Bigger guys typically don’t have the foot speed to really bother elite small guards.

Not particularly true, no.

penbeast0 wrote:

Ol Roy wrote:I think I'd have to have LeBron and Kidd on there for their IQ and switchability. Prime LeBron (and Jordan for that matter) primarily focused on defense would be sick.

What is the history of Jordan and LeBron make you think they could work together and that one would be willing to play Robin?

LeBron himself said he thinks they could have easily played together

LeBron is like a super charged Pippen, so I think they'd be fine

AEnigma wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Interesting how it restricts itself to following positions. Cannot tell me that for this exercise it is better defensively to play two guards than to play forwards / big wings like Lebron, George, Kawhi, Rodman, Artest, etc.

I’ll just say this, Chris Paul lit Kawhi on fire in a playoff series when defended by him in 2015.

Bigger guys typically don’t have the foot speed to really bother elite small guards.

Not particularly true, no.

Dame versus PG in the 2019 playoffs, LeBron versus Curry in the 2015 playoffs, CP3 versus Artest in 2011.

Just out of the names listed. Rodman’s the only one without a notable series like this off the top of my head.

This further confirms to me that what you are doing is glancing at a statline with no further thought or analysis.

AEnigma wrote:This further confirms to me that what you are doing is glancing at a statline with no further thought or analysis.

I think there's situational truth to what he's saying. Simmons was always an elite defender for us until we went up against a shifty guard like Trae Young or even Terry Rozier. Then he looked like Gobert trying to defend Luka. As with most things, there's a happy medium to be achieved and my (theoretical) strategy is to minimize extremes in either direction

GeorgeMarcus wrote:

AEnigma wrote:This further confirms to me that what you are doing is glancing at a statline with no further thought or analysis.

I think there's situational truth to what he's saying. Simmons was always an elite defender for us until we went up against a shifty guard like Trae Young or even Terry Rozier. Then he looked like Gobert trying to defend Luka. As with most things, there's a happy medium to be achieved and my (theoretical) strategy is to minimize extremes in either direction

Of course there is “situational truth”, but that is applicable to virtually every team or defender. Where was Kidd’s vaunted defence in the 2002 Finals, or against Wade in 2005/06? How did Gary Payton handle the legendary Nick Van Exel? Is Michael Cooper’s DPoY invalidated by Sleepy Floyd? What about Andrew Toney’s scoring averages against Sidney Moncrief (and Micheal Ray Richardson) from 1982-85? And mind you, basically all of those were more direct matchups than anything he attempted to cite.

Chris Paul having a good statline against teams with elite defensive forwards does not mean that Chris Paul is having an easier time against a lineup of Lebron (ask Tony Parker and Derrick Rose whether “quickness” was an issue for him…), Rodman, Pippen, Garnett, and Hakeem than he would if you replaced one or two of those forwards with smaller guards. Shooting guards like Tony Allen or Andre Roberson could be enough of a point of attack improvement to be worth a spot, because they have massive wingspans on par with or longer than some of those all-time forwards, but the smaller guys do not really seem worth the matchup tradeoff elsewhere.