RealGM

Do you consider Harden more of a PG or SG? When preparing lists of all time greats by position, which position are you including him under?

His gameplay is kinda a hybrid of both positions, but being the clear facilitator for his teams for most of his career make him a PG first and foremost in my eyes. Similarly to guys like Luka and West.

I think one of the biggest reasons why he is considered a shooting guard many times is that it was his first position when entering the league, much like guys like Tim Duncan who the media usually consider PF. Considering him SG also happens to make him a top five guy in his position in most lists while if he was considered a PG, he would face much tougher competition.

He's been a full-time PG since '16-'17. That's the position I associate him with.

He managed his teams offenses for almost his entire prime. He was a point guard who was tilted towards scoring as Stockton was tilted towards passing.

sp6r=underrated wrote:He managed his teams offenses for almost his entire prime. He was a point guard who was tilted towards scoring as Stockton was tilted towards passing.

True, but he's also posted double-digit APG four times in his career, and led the league in APG twice.

In a way, he draws parallels to someone like Oscar Robertson. Not aesthetically, of course, but in terms of being a high-volume scorer and high-output shot creator.

With a concensus around here for the time being about him being a PG, how do you explain the media treats him as SG in historical lists almost exclusively?

durantbird wrote:With a concensus around here for the time being about him being a PG, how do you explain the media treats him as SG in historical lists almost exclusively?

He's SG sized, has frequently played alongside another PG, and is also a high-volume scorer. Those factors seem to muddy the waters with regard to players like him and LeBron. I suspect it would be the same with Luka if Brunson had been an established starting PG from the jump.

Fadeaway_J wrote:

durantbird wrote:With a concensus around here for the time being about him being a PG, how do you explain the media treats him as SG in historical lists almost exclusively?

He's SG sized, has frequently played alongside another PG, and is also a high-volume scorer. Those factors seem to muddy the waters with regard to players like him and LeBron. I suspect it would be the same with Luka if Brunson had been an established starting PG from the jump.

That, and the lack of real clarity on what happens when a player starts to overlap archetypes, right? Magic was a PG at 6'8, and Oscar at 6'6, but not quite in the same way as 6'5 Harden. A lot more like Luka, for sure. Lebron's been pretty consistently listed as something other than a PG for most of his career following his rookie season, but has certainly filled the role of primary initiator/playmaker alongside his scoring duties most of the time.

It's a grey space, so to speak, for sure.

tsherkin wrote:

Fadeaway_J wrote:

durantbird wrote:With a concensus around here for the time being about him being a PG, how do you explain the media treats him as SG in historical lists almost exclusively?

He's SG sized, has frequently played alongside another PG, and is also a high-volume scorer. Those factors seem to muddy the waters with regard to players like him and LeBron. I suspect it would be the same with Luka if Brunson had been an established starting PG from the jump.

That, and the lack of real clarity on what happens when a player starts to overlap archetypes, right? Magic was a PG at 6'8, and Oscar at 6'6, but not quite in the same way as 6'5 Harden. A lot more like Luka, for sure. Lebron's been pretty consistently listed as something other than a PG for most of his career following his rookie season, but has certainly filled the role of primary initiator/playmaker alongside his scoring duties most of the time.

It's a grey space, so to speak, for sure.

Yeah. The more I think about it, the more it seems like playing with or without a nominal PG is the primary consideration for a lot of people. Harden is trickier because he's played both backcourt roles at a high level, and done so alongside big-name guys who are unquestionably considered PGs themselves (CP3, Russ, Kyrie).

Fadeaway_J wrote:Yeah. The more I think about it, the more it seems like playing with or without a nominal PG is the primary consideration for a lot of people. Harden is trickier because he's played both backcourt roles at a high level, and done so alongside big-name guys who are unquestionably considered PGs themselves (CP3, Russ, Kyrie).

And even that doesn't make a lot of sense to me, if he's by proportion the highest-volume initiator/play runner and all that, right? Like, Chris Paul is definitely a PG, but why does that preclude there being another PG on the floor? We've seen double-big lineups which were clearly a pair of centers, so why not two points?

tsherkin wrote:

Fadeaway_J wrote:Yeah. The more I think about it, the more it seems like playing with or without a nominal PG is the primary consideration for a lot of people. Harden is trickier because he's played both backcourt roles at a high level, and done so alongside big-name guys who are unquestionably considered PGs themselves (CP3, Russ, Kyrie).

And even that doesn't make a lot of sense to me, if he's by proportion the highest-volume initiator/play runner and all that, right? Like, Chris Paul is definitely a PG, but why does that preclude there being another PG on the floor? We've seen double-big lineups which were clearly a pair of centers, so why not two points?

I agree, but that seems to be a very likely reason for him to be considered a SG (another could be the approach of indexing on defensive position, which I've also seen before).

Fadeaway_J wrote:I agree, but that seems to be a very likely reason for him to be considered a SG (another could be the approach of indexing on defensive position, which I've also seen before).

It's certainly possible, yes.

This is why a lot of people have gone away from traditional position names and instead go with ball-handlers, wings, and bigs—with '3&D' mixed in as well.

itsxtray wrote:This is why a lot of people have gone away from traditional position names and instead go with ball-handlers, wings, and bigs—with '3&D' mixed in as well.

This is largely how I prefer to approach it.

Or go by defensive assignment with the 1 being the smallest defender on the floor/or the guy who guards the smallest offensive player though coaches sometimes deliberately mismatch players.

This is the basic definition for every position except PG where it gets mixed together with the primary ballhandler definition allowing players like Oscar and Magic to be called point guards but also leading to guys who who do very little ballhandling but who guard 1s getting called it as well.

Combo, but If I had to choose, I'd say Shooting guard.

He's a SG. He defends wings. Being a lead ballhandler doesn't change his position, or his instincts. LeBron is a SF, Jokic is a C, Harden is a SG.

When he could really score, he'd rather do more of that in his prime.

Though, in his first year in Brooklyn, he struck a crazy balance.

ShotCreator wrote:He's a SG. He defends wings. Being a lead ballhandler doesn't change his position, or his instincts. LeBron is a SF, Jokic is a C, Harden is a SG.

When he could really score, he'd rather do more of that in his prime.

Though, in his first year in Brooklyn, he struck a crazy balance.

Wings or bigs. Brother is incredibly strong and always does well defending post ups.

It’s a shame we lost that Brooklyn stint to injuries, I always felt like we could’ve gotten a better? version of that in OKC if Russ hadn’t been drafted first and handed the keys to the franchise as the number two guy the year before Harden was drafted.

Harden is always difficult for me to ascertain a really accurate rating on personally. I feel like having a running mate like KD would be the ideal guy to put next to him so that there’s less “pressure” on him to be the number one guy on a team, but because Harden is so good it feels like a hard ask for a team to go out and spend the money on another tier 1 guy but we saw with Paul that it was a really good idea considering they nearly took down the ‘17 Warriors.

ShotCreator wrote:He's a SG. He defends wings. Being a lead ballhandler doesn't change his position, or his instincts. LeBron is a SF, Jokic is a C, Harden is a SG.

When he could really score, he'd rather do more of that in his prime.

Though, in his first year in Brooklyn, he struck a crazy balance.

Luka - PG or SG?

He's a SG who has primary ball-handling responsibilities.

CKRT wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:He's a SG. He defends wings. Being a lead ballhandler doesn't change his position, or his instincts. LeBron is a SF, Jokic is a C, Harden is a SG.

When he could really score, he'd rather do more of that in his prime.

Though, in his first year in Brooklyn, he struck a crazy balance.

Wings or bigs. Brother is incredibly strong and always does well defending post ups.

It’s a shame we lost that Brooklyn stint to injuries, I always felt like we could’ve gotten a better? version of that in OKC if Russ hadn’t been drafted first and handed the keys to the franchise as the number two guy the year before Harden was drafted.

Harden is always difficult for me to ascertain a really accurate rating on personally. I feel like having a running mate like KD would be the ideal guy to put next to him so that there’s less “pressure” on him to be the number one guy on a team, but because Harden is so good it feels like a hard ask for a team to go out and spend the money on another tier 1 guy but we saw with Paul that it was a really good idea considering they nearly took down the ‘17 Warriors.

yeah that first year in brooklyn, and even this last year with kawhi, really makes me think his absolute ideal role would have been a 1B scorer next to a KD or Kawhi iso terminator. i mean he proved to be incredibly valuable as a #1 option, but his playoff declines are almost certainly based on the fact he was never a crazy physical specimen with inspector gadget arms like KD/kawhi and was always trying to create against better athletes.

aside from the fact that playing with a top 20 type player is always a good thing, the synergy would be perfect. those guys wouldn't have to worry about running the offense (their main weakness) because they'd have one of the greatest to ever do it in harden to carry that burden and they could just go to work on people after harden gets them to the right spot. and 6'-5", moderately athletic harden wouldn't have to spam 25 incredibly difficult shots against the iggy's of the world and harden could just go to work on whatever poor sap is the #2 wing defender on the team, allowing harden to give you a highly efficient 25 ppg while making sure KD and kawhi give you a highly efficient 30 ppg.