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The 2000's was a very deep decade for talented wing defenders. Who gets your vote for the best of that era?

Where's Shane Battier?

I'd vote Kirilenko Battier Artest Marion Bowen.

durantbird wrote:Where's Shane Battier?

I'd vote Kirilenko Battier Artest Marion Bowen.

He falls into the "other" category. Great defender, but in my opinion he wasn't quite on the same level as the 5 guys I specifically named.

Peak Artest was probably the best at defending wings (second, where's Battier?), but Kirilenko is the best wing defender.

You have 4 combo forwards who played some PF (and would play even more today) plus Bowen who was more a G/F swingman. I'd rather have Bowen than the other 4 trying to stop a quick 2 like a Jason Terry. I'd rather have any of the others trying to defend a big 3/4 (like a Lamar Odom). Kirilenko and Marion are also better help defenders/rim protectors so it depends on assignment, scheme, and teammates.

Also peak (Kirilenko's prime didn't last long) or career value?

penbeast0 wrote:You have 4 combo forwards who played some PF (and would play even more today) plus Bowen who was more a G/F swingman. I'd rather have Bowen than the other 4 trying to stop a quick 2 like a Jason Terry. I'd rather have any of the others trying to defend a big 3/4 (like a Lamar Odom). Kirilenko and Marion are also better help defenders/rim protectors so it depends on assignment, scheme, and teammates.

Also peak (Kirilenko's prime didn't last long) or career value?

Peak

AStark1991 wrote:

durantbird wrote:Where's Shane Battier?

I'd vote Kirilenko Battier Artest Marion Bowen.

He falls into the "other" category. Great defender, but in my opinion he wasn't quite on the same level as the 5 guys I specifically named.

Understandable opinion given the opinions of the time, but I'd say that underrates Battier.

I've been doing an analysis based on nbarapm's data.

Among 4-year DRAPM samples, here's how these guys ranked at peak:

Battier: #1
Artest: #3
Bowen: #5
Kirilenko: #19
Marion: #29

Now, one thing that I think should kept in mind for this data is the classification of steal-based impact.

Basketball-wise we consider steals to be a defensive play, and also tend to see the points scored off of the steals as part of that defensive impact, but from an RAPM perspective, the points scored count for offensive impact, and hence one could argue that DRAPM underrates a guy like that while ORAPM overrates him.

If we look at these same guys by peak overall 4-year RAPM:

Kirilenko: #4
Artest: #5
Battier: #8
Marion: #17
Bowen: #58

Obviously other offensive skills can tie into this too so the overall RAPM is not a proxy for "true defense", but I would tend to favor Artest's defense at his best over Battier or anyone else here.

Kirilenko's trickier. I do tend to think that when he was healthy he was the best player of the bunch, and offense is part of that, but I wonder if there were some odd Jerry Sloan lineup factors that skew correlations to overrate his offense and underrate his defense.

What about Marion? Well, if we're looking for a reason why Marion possibly be underrated I'd expect we talking about Phoenix not being defensively-oriented during the D'Antoni years, but of course we should also note that that was only 3 and a partial seasons, and Marion has no 4-year ranges outside of this where he's even rated a Top 30 DRAPM guy.

Honorable mention to Loul Deng.

Im Your Father wrote:Honorable mention to Loul Deng.

If we're including guys from as late as the 2004 draft class, there were some awesome defenders there (Deng, Iggy, Tony, Ariza, etc).

Tony Allen?

Bruce Bowen was kind of an overrated defender, he was just dirty

AStark1991 wrote:The 2000's was a very deep decade for talented wing defenders. Who gets your vote for the best of that era?

We're excluding the Small Forward in Cleveland Ohio who carried a -5 defense?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/cavs-defensive-rating-with-and-without-lebron-james-by-season

Can I be cheeky and vote for Wolves KG?

Honestly it was probably Artest. At one time he was a not bad offensive player also.

Gerald "Crash" Wallace mention.....

OhayoKD wrote:

AStark1991 wrote:The 2000's was a very deep decade for talented wing defenders. Who gets your vote for the best of that era?

We're excluding the Small Forward in Cleveland Ohio who carried a -5 defense?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/cavs-defensive-rating-with-and-without-lebron-james-by-season

It was a very strong defensive team. Anderson Varejao, Big Z, Big Ben, and Delonte.. Also it was a weak year defensively..

Garnett, Chandler, Bogut, Camby, Jermaine, Kenyon, Wallace is injured. Duncan is in a down year..

Not saying 09 Bron isn't a great defensive season, but what makes you say Bron was really that guy defensively in 09?

Top10alltime wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

AStark1991 wrote:The 2000's was a very deep decade for talented wing defenders. Who gets your vote for the best of that era?

We're excluding the Small Forward in Cleveland Ohio who carried a -5 defense?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/cavs-defensive-rating-with-and-without-lebron-james-by-season

It was a very strong defensive team. Anderson Varejao, Big Z, Big Ben, and Delonte.. Also it was a weak year defensively..

Ben Wallace got injured and was washed for half of the season. Big Z and delonte were average. Varejoa was very good. Mo Williams was a negative.

Without Ben Wallace and with a diminished Varejoa in 2010 (and a negative added in shaq) Lebron anchored a -3.5 defense that turned into a +4.5 defense (positive is bad) when he left.

As opposed to what makes him him. Elite man-defense, help defense, poa defense, and strong rim-protection for an all-time two way floor-general. Here's some granular data for that man defense:

That is a 9.5 points per 36 and 13.5 TS% difference. In the playoffs, LeBron continued playing elite man defense. Here are how some of his guys did when LeBron was on the court (per 36 minutes):

Tayshaun Prince: 3.9 PPG, .260 TS%
Joe Johnson: 15.3 PPG, .480 TS%
Marvin Williams: 5.8 PPG, .337 TS%
Dropoff from regular season averages: -7.6 PPG, -18.1 TS%

Defensive stats from Hoopsstats.com for his position:
17.3 pts/game allowed (1st in league) (13.2 points per 36 minutes)
41.2 FG% allowed (1st)
15.1 FGA allowed (2nd fewest)
16.6 Efficiency allowed (1st)
1.3 Offensive rebounds allowed (3rd)

+2.8 Defensive RAPM [2nd among qualifying perimeter players (Artest)]

4th Quarter:
LeBron averaged 32 Points, 8.4 Rebounds, 7 Assists, .596 TS% per 36 minutes in the 4th quarter. When LeBron was on the court in the 4th, the Cavs had a 121.2 O Rating, 96.6 D rating (+24.6 Net). He had an absurd 44.1 Assist% in the 4th (equivalent to this year’s John Wall assist%).

Top10alltime wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

AStark1991 wrote:The 2000's was a very deep decade for talented wing defenders. Who gets your vote for the best of that era?

We're excluding the Small Forward in Cleveland Ohio who carried a -5 defense?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/cavs-defensive-rating-with-and-without-lebron-james-by-season

It was a very strong defensive team. Anderson Varejao, Big Z, Big Ben, and Delonte.. Also it was a weak year defensively..

Garnett, Chandler, Bogut, Camby, Jermaine, Kenyon, Wallace is injured. Duncan is in a down year..

Not saying 09 Bron isn't a great defensive season, but what makes you say Bron was really that guy defensively in 09?

Ben Wallace was not an elite defender in 2009. Injuries and him losing his athleticism made him basically a decent one on one post defender.

Big Z was never all that good of a defender to begin with, but in 2009? The man could barely walk, let alone defend the rim.

West and Varejao were the only two good defenders on that team alongside LeBron.

West: was just a good perimeter defender. He was only 6’3 but could stay in front of his man.

Varejao: a very, very good post defender and pretty decent one on one. Problem is he had almost no rim protection.

Iwasawitness wrote:

Top10alltime wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:We're excluding the Small Forward in Cleveland Ohio who carried a -5 defense?

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/cavs-defensive-rating-with-and-without-lebron-james-by-season

It was a very strong defensive team. Anderson Varejao, Big Z, Big Ben, and Delonte.. Also it was a weak year defensively..

Garnett, Chandler, Bogut, Camby, Jermaine, Kenyon, Wallace is injured. Duncan is in a down year..

Not saying 09 Bron isn't a great defensive season, but what makes you say Bron was really that guy defensively in 09?

Ben Wallace was not an elite defender in 2009. Injuries and him losing his athleticism made him basically a decent one on one post defender.

Big Z was never all that good of a defender to begin with, but in 2009? The man could barely walk, let alone defend the rim.

West and Varejao were the only two good defenders on that team alongside LeBron.

West: was just a good perimeter defender. He was only 6’3 but could stay in front of his man.

Varejao: a very, very good post defender and pretty decent one on one. Problem is he had almost no rim protection.

Yeah, I got how Lebron is at his defensive peak in 08-09 from poster above. Good points tho.