Defense only - Dikembe Mutombo vs Dwight Howard

[AStark1991]

Who gets your vote for the better all-around defensive player? Mutombo had an obvious advantage in terms of shot blocking/rim protection whereas Dwight was far more athletic, mobile, and switchable. When it comes to rebounding, I'd say they were just about equal with maybe a slight edge going to Dwight.

[penbeast0]

As we move more and more forward in time during the 3 point era, I think the balance shifts more toward Dwight. For the time (most of NBA history) where the focus of the offense was on getting post shots or driving the basket, Mutombo is the more valuable defender, but as offense moves away from the basket and quickness/switchability becomes more valuable, then it starts to even out and might even favor Howard.

[trex_8063]

As we move more and more forward in time during the 3 point era, I think the balance shifts more toward Dwight. For the time (most of NBA history) where the focus of the offense was on getting post shots or driving the basket, Mutombo is the more valuable defender, but as offense moves away from the basket and quickness/switchability becomes more valuable, then it starts to even out and might even favor Howard.

Basically agree. I think for most of professional basketball's history [roughly mid-40's all the way till about 10-12 years ago], Dikembe is the clear answer. It's only in space era with lots of screens and [relatively] positionless basketball where it may begin to tip toward Dwight.

And that's ONLY in their peri-peak years. Dwight did not sustain defensive value that well (after he came back from his back surgery ['13 and after], his defensive value was WAY down). Dikembe was a defensive beast well into his late 30s [just in smaller minutes].
So if we're talking about career defensive value, it's Dikembe and not at all close.
If we're talking average year, it's still Dikembe (just not by as big a margin).

[70sFan]

I am not even sure if Dwight has a meaningful advantage in today's game, considering how well Gobert has been doing for years with similar profile to Deke.

Career-wise, it's not close - I think Mutombo has a perfectly reasonable case for top 5 defender ever, while Dwight probably would end just outside top 10.

[falcolombardi]

Mutombo, albeit howard was no slouch

[One_and_Done]

In today's game it's Dwight for sure, so Dwight.

[70sFan]

In today's game it's Dwight for sure, so Dwight.

How is that sure?

[One_and_Done]

I remember an older Deke trying to move on the perimeter when the Nets ran. It was brutal to watch. He really was fortunate to mostly play in an era of slow it down and grind it out iso paint ball. I think he'd have serious issues moving around the perimeter today.

[70sFan]

I remember an older Deke trying to move on the perimeter when the Nets ran. It was brutal to watch. He really was fortunate to mostly play in an era of slow it down and grind it out iso paint ball. I think he'd have serious issues moving around the perimeter today.

Just a quick reminder that Mutombo was 36 in Nets times. The same age at which Dwight ended his career, you know?

[One_and_Done]

I remember an older Deke trying to move on the perimeter when the Nets ran. It was brutal to watch. He really was fortunate to mostly play in an era of slow it down and grind it out iso paint ball. I think he'd have serious issues moving around the perimeter today.

Just a quick reminder that Mutombo was 36 in Nets times. The same age at which Dwight ended his career, you know?

I didn't get the impression that he had slowed down much from the previous season when he was an all-star, all-nba 2nd teamer, and 3rd in DPOY. What had changed was the scheme around him had sped up. Mutumbo was supposed to be the missing piece for the Nets, and right away they realised 'this dude is not suited to running up and down the floor like Kidd wants to on every fast break'. He looked totally lost. Per 36 minutes he still rebounded & blocked shots exactly the same as the previous year, and he played till age 42, so I don't think he was washed all of a sudden. The issue was the Nets literally couldn't put him on the floor because he was too slow.

I realise the Nets had a low 'pace', but pace and speed aren't the same thing. The Nets liked to get up and down the court alot, and to use fast and quick guys like R.Jeff. Kittles & K.Mart to scramble all over the floor. The 92-ish pace of the Nets belies how much their scheme relied on quickness.

No doubt being younger would have helped Mutumbo, but he almost always thrived in slow, grind it out teams. Today's game would have been a big adjustment for him. I doubt he'd have had a similar impact.

[70sFan]

I remember an older Deke trying to move on the perimeter when the Nets ran. It was brutal to watch. He really was fortunate to mostly play in an era of slow it down and grind it out iso paint ball. I think he'd have serious issues moving around the perimeter today.

Just a quick reminder that Mutombo was 36 in Nets times. The same age at which Dwight ended his career, you know?

I didn't get the impression that he had slowed down much from the previous season when he was an all-star, all-nba 2nd teamer, and 3rd in DPOY. What had changed was the scheme around him had sped up. Mutumbo was supposed to be the missing piece for the Nets, and right away they realised 'this dude is not suited to running up and down the floor like Kidd wants to on every fast break'. He looked totally lost. Per 36 minutes he still rebounded & blocked shots exactly the same as the previous year, and he played till age 42, so I don't think he was washed all of a sudden. The issue was the Nets literally couldn't put him on the floor because he was too slow.

I realise the Nets had a low 'pace', but pace and speed aren't the same thing. The Nets liked to get up and down the court alot, and to use fast and quick guys like R.Jeff. Kittles & K.Mart to scramble all over the floor. The 92-ish pace of the Nets belies how much their scheme relied on quickness.

No doubt being younger would have helped Mutumbo, but he almost always thrived in slow, grind it out teams. Today's game would have been a big adjustment for him. I doubt he'd have had a similar impact.

We have a progress, now we talk about 35 years old version

I think it's not a complicated idea that you can still be a successful player even with diminished athleticism at the old age. The fact that Mutombo remained impactful defender even till 40 doesn't mean that his speed and quickness didn't diminish at older age. Mutombo peaked as a basketball player like 8 years before 2002.

As for the pace discussion - Denver was one of the fastest teams in the league during Mutombo's peak and he was just fine.

[One_and_Done]

Yeh. I disagree.

[70sFan]

Yeh. I disagree.

You disagree with you focusing only on 35+ years old versions of Mutombo (probably because you never watched younger versions) or with the fact that the Nuggets played fast in Mutombo times?

[One_and_Done]

Yeh. I disagree.

You disagree with you focusing only on 35+ years old versions of Mutombo (probably because you never watched younger versions) or with the fact that the Nuggets played fast in Mutombo times?

The rebuke of 'you never watched these guys' is irrelevant and tired. I've previously been told I'm 'obviously a kid' if I think the modern game is better, and now I'm apparently 'only' old enough to have watched 34 year old Deke. You realise that was 22 years ago right?

[70sFan]

Yeh. I disagree.

You disagree with you focusing only on 35+ years old versions of Mutombo (probably because you never watched younger versions) or with the fact that the Nuggets played fast in Mutombo times?

The rebuke of 'you never watched these guys' is irrelevant and tired. I've previously been told I'm 'obviously a kid' if I think the modern game is better, and now I'm apparently 'only' old enough to have watched 34 year old Deke. You realise that was 22 years ago right?

It's not about being old enough, I am not old enough to watch Nuggets Mutombo but it doesn't mean you can't watch him moving considerably better than Nets Mutombo.

[tsherkin]

As for the pace discussion - Denver was one of the fastest teams in the league during Mutombo's peak and he was just fine.

To highlight this...

First of all, Mutombo played 24 games for the Nets. This team, which "ran him off the floor" according to One_and_Done, played at 91.6 poss/g.

In his Denver career, they played at 98.6, 99.8, 96.1, 91.5 and 92.2 poss/g. With Atlanta, 86.8, 87.7, 85.3 and 91.7 poss/g. With Philly, 90.6 and 88.9.

Kidd and the Nets didn't play anything like the tempo of what Mutombo was playing with in Denver (at altitude, no less) in his 20s. And two dozen games in the single season he was with the Nets, while dealing with a wrist injury and then surgery and all that, say very little about his ability to integrate with the team to any meaningful capacity... especially come the playoffs. So that's not really valid examination of his time with the Nets at all. PARTICULARLY at age, as 70sFan noted.

C'mon, now.

[One_and_Done]

As for the pace discussion - Denver was one of the fastest teams in the league during Mutombo's peak and he was just fine.

To highlight this...

First of all, Mutombo played 24 games for the Nets. This team, which "ran him off the floor" according to One_and_Done, played at 91.6 poss/g.

In his Denver career, they played at 98.6, 99.8, 96.1, 91.5 and 92.2 poss/g. With Atlanta, 86.8, 87.7, 85.3 and 91.7 poss/g. With Philly, 90.6 and 88.9.

Kidd and the Nets didn't play anything like the tempo of what Mutombo was playing with in Denver (at altitude, no less) in his 20s. And two dozen games in the single season he was with the Nets, while dealing with a wrist injury and then surgery and all that, say very little about his ability to integrate with the team to any meaningful capacity... especially come the playoffs. So that's not really valid examination of his time with the Nets at all. PARTICULARLY at age, as 70sFan noted.

C'mon, now.

As I noted, pace is not always indicative of how 'fast' a team played, and especially not how much they had to move around the court. This years Warriors also played at a 98 pace, but I can't imagine you think that players on the 90s Nuggets had to move around the court anywhere near as much as today's Warriors, despite their identical pace. With the demands of today's offense/defence that's almost certainly untrue.

Pace doesn't necessarily measure 'speed' either. It's just telling you the number of shots/possessions a team takes in a game; but a team can take more shots because of a garbage offensive scheme where they jack up a bad shot after 10 seconds, then the other team gingerly dribbles it up the court and does the same, or they can get more possessions because they are generating more TOs and broken plays.

The Nets pace, imo, doesn't reflect how much they wanted their guys to move around the court when I watched them. It was that, and not a wrist injury, that made Mutumbo unplayable (even when his wrist was fine), that was why he was waived, they knew it wasn't going to get better with more rest. I remember watching the games and discussing it with people. Similarly, I don't think 90s Mutumbo had to move around that much either; I recall seeing alot of Deke jogging up and down the court in a straight line with minimal lateral and perimeter movement. I am certain his mobility would be more of an issue today. Even Gobert, who is hugely mobile for his size, has some limitations in that respect.

[tsherkin]

As I noted, pace is not always indicative of how 'fast' a team played, and especially not how much they had to move around the court.

The latter, sure. The former, definitively not.

This years Warriors also played at a 98 pace, but I can't imagine you think that players on the 90s Nuggets had to move around the court anywhere near as much as today's Warriors, despite their identical pace. With the demands of today's offense/defence that's almost certainly untrue.

Yes, when you speak of lateral movement, that's something else. But that's okay, because as 70sFan noted, there are archetypes who are not particularly good at lateral movement who do just fine as high-end defenders (even repeat DPOYs) in this day and age.

Pace doesn't necessarily measure 'speed' either. It's just telling you the number of shots/possessions a team takes in a game; but a team can take more shots because of a garbage offensive scheme where they jack up a bad shot after 10 seconds, then the other team gingerly dribbles it up the court and does the same, or they can get more possessions because they are generating more TOs and broken plays.

Either way, you're flipping ends of the court.

The Nets pace, imo, doesn't reflect how much they wanted their guys to move around the court when I watched them. It was that, and not a wrist injury, that made Mutumbo unplayable (even when his wrist was fine), that was why he was waived, they knew it wasn't going to get better with more rest. I remember watching the games and discussing it with people. Similarly, I don't think 90s Mutumbo had to move around that much either; I recall seeing alot of Deke jogging up and down the court in a straight line with minimal lateral and perimeter movement. I am certain his mobility would be more of an issue today. Even Gobert, who is hugely mobile for his size, has some limitations in that respect.

Gobert has limitations, and is still an extremely high-impact defender regardless. Mutombo would be similar in that regard.

[kcktiny]

As I noted, pace is not always indicative of how 'fast' a team played

Wrong.

This is exactly what game pace measures, how fast a team - as a whole - gets up and down the floor. The higher the game pace, the faster a team as a whole gets up and down the floor.

and especially not how much they had to move around the court

Correct. This is not what game pace measures. You clearly do not understand the concept of game pace.

At stats.nba.com there is tracking data for speed and distance data for players. You can easily calculate the distance covered by players, and not only that but their average speed over the course of a season.

This data has been publicly available for over a decade. Where have you been?

Pace doesn't necessarily measure 'speed' either.

Again, you can claim to yourself that your diction is more meaningful than the words of others. It's not. How about you state your definitions first before claiming to know what you are talking about?

Game pace measures a team's pace, how fast it is, it's speed, whatever you want to call it - as a whole.

but I can't imagine you think that players on the 90s Nuggets had to move around the court anywhere near as much as today's Warriors, despite their identical pace.

Watch a lot of basketball do you? Like how today many offenses will park one or two players on offense somewhere on the court behind the 3pt line as action occurs elsewhere just to open up the lane? What's their speed, or fastness, as they stand there simply to draw their defender away from the paint?

I'm guessing you've never seen an NBA team run a true motion offense.

With the demands of today's offense/defence that's almost certainly untrue.

Care to explain to all of us novices just exactly what you are trying to say here? What demands exist today in NBA offenses that did not exist 1, 2, 3, or 4 decades earlier?

Or is this again just your typical the-NBA-is-better-now-than-it-was-back-then bluster that is in reality meaningless?

or they can get more possessions because they are generating more TOs

Once again this is you making statements that profess expertise when in reality you are showing you clearly have no idea.

There is no correlation between game pace and the number of turnovers a team commits. None whatsoever. An NBA team does not get more possessions - either by committing more turnovers on offense or by forcing more turnovers on defense.

Had you bothered to look at the game paces of NBA teams over the past decades and their turnovers committed you would know this.

[One_and_Done]

As I noted, pace is not always indicative of how 'fast' a team played, and especially not how much they had to move around the court.

The latter, sure. The former, definitively not.

This years Warriors also played at a 98 pace, but I can't imagine you think that players on the 90s Nuggets had to move around the court anywhere near as much as today's Warriors, despite their identical pace. With the demands of today's offense/defence that's almost certainly untrue.

Yes, when you speak of lateral movement, that's something else. But that's okay, because as 70sFan noted, there are archetypes who are not particularly good at lateral movement who do just fine as high-end defenders (even repeat DPOYs) in this day and age.

Pace doesn't necessarily measure 'speed' either. It's just telling you the number of shots/possessions a team takes in a game; but a team can take more shots because of a garbage offensive scheme where they jack up a bad shot after 10 seconds, then the other team gingerly dribbles it up the court and does the same, or they can get more possessions because they are generating more TOs and broken plays.

Either way, you're flipping ends of the court.

The Nets pace, imo, doesn't reflect how much they wanted their guys to move around the court when I watched them. It was that, and not a wrist injury, that made Mutumbo unplayable (even when his wrist was fine), that was why he was waived, they knew it wasn't going to get better with more rest. I remember watching the games and discussing it with people. Similarly, I don't think 90s Mutumbo had to move around that much either; I recall seeing alot of Deke jogging up and down the court in a straight line with minimal lateral and perimeter movement. I am certain his mobility would be more of an issue today. Even Gobert, who is hugely mobile for his size, has some limitations in that respect.

Gobert has limitations, and is still an extremely high-impact defender regardless. Mutombo would be similar in that regard.

Gobert is pretty mobile and light on his feet for his size, and even his impact drops in the playoffs. I'm not saying Mutumbo gets played off the floor in the RS or something, but I can't see Gobert is a reasonable comp. I'm not even sure you could say Deke was faster than Zubac.