Maurice Cheeks vs Fat Lever

[AStark1991]

Team success aside, who was the better overall player?

[kcktiny]

Fat Lever was outstanding 1986-87 to 1989-90.

The amount of ball possessions he secured over those 4 seasons compared to other PGs was incredible:

- 836 off rebs, no other PG had more than 488
- 1954 def rebs, no other PG was within even 300
- 2nd most steals among PGs at 787 (only Stockton had more)
- 9th most assists among PGs, but
- just the 14th most turnovers (3.6 ast/to ratio)
- 3rd best scoring PG at 18.9 pts/g
- a great defender to boot

Even Magic wasn't doing that.

Career-wise it's Cheeks - 2nd best PG in the decade of the 80s behind only Magic.

[AStark1991]

Career-wise it's Cheeks - 2nd best PG in the decade of the 80s behind only Magic.

I have to respectfully disagree with you there. I'd give that honor to Dennis Johnson. He was great throughout the entire decade and peaked a lot higher than Cheeks as well. In 1980 he was Second Team All-NBA and finished 5th in MVP voting. In 1981 he was First Team All-NBA and finished 8th in MVP voting. He also received the most votes for All-Defensive Team both of those years as well, which would have also most likely resulted in him winning a DPOY if the award existed at the time. Both Magic and Iceman Gervin have been quoted as saying that DJ was the toughest defender they ever played against.

[kcktiny]

...Dennis Johnson. He was great throughout the entire decade

I have D.J. as primarily a SG his first 8 seasons in the league (1976-77 to 1983-84). As for the 1980s:

- in 79-80 the PG was Gus Williams
- in 80-81 the PGs were Johnny High and Kyle Macy
- in 81-82 the PG was Kyle Macy
- in 82-83 the PGs were Macy and High again
- in 83-84 the PGs were Gerald Henderson and Quinn Buckner

It wasn't until 1984-85 that D.J. was a fulltime PG.

He also received the most votes for All-Defensive Team both of those years as well, which would have also most likely resulted in him winning a DPOY if the award existed at the time.

As for D.J.'s defense I agree. I always think of him as a SG (as in Seattle) and one of the greatest defensive SGs in league history.

[AStark1991]

...Dennis Johnson. He was great throughout the entire decade

I have D.J. as primarily a SG his first 8 seasons in the league (1976-77 to 1983-84). As for the 1980s:

- in 79-80 the PG was Gus Williams
- in 80-81 the PGs were Johnny High and Kyle Macy
- in 81-82 the PG was Kyle Macy
- in 82-83 the PGs were Macy and High again
- in 83-84 the PGs were Gerald Henderson and Quinn Buckner

It wasn't until 1984-85 that D.J. was a fulltime PG.

He also received the most votes for All-Defensive Team both of those years as well, which would have also most likely resulted in him winning a DPOY if the award existed at the time.

As for D.J.'s defense I agree. I always think of him as a SG (as in Seattle) and one of the greatest defensive SGs in league history.

We're also obviously forgetting Isiah Thomas haha. I think he's clearly the second best PG of the 80's. Can't believe he slipped my mind. But anyway, it's been fun discussing the guys that are more overlooked.

[kcktiny]

We're also obviously forgetting Isiah Thomas haha. I think he's clearly the second best PG of the 80's.

Thomas was nowhere near the defender Cheeks was, and compared to Cheeks was a turnover machine.

Cheeks had just two seasons of 200+ turnovers in the 80s, never committed more than 238. Thomas averaged 300+ turnovers/season in the 80s.

Thomas had 439 more assists than did Cheeks in the 80s, but at the cost of 660 more turnovers.

In the 80s Cheeks shot 6% better on 2s than did Thomas (53.6% vs. 47.7%). That's over some 23,000+ minutes per player.

[penbeast0]

Although Lever was a PG outside those 4 seasons and they are indeed outliers (Doug Moe was a master as allowing players to maximize talents that other coaches constrained with their systems like Lever's rebounding, Michael Adams and the 3 point shot, Hanzlick's big man defense, etc.), Adams at least split the PG duties (and covered PGs defensively in 87-88 to 89-90 with Lever as the 2 guard. OP didn't try to claim he was a PG but with the DJ discussion trending that way, I thought I'd throw that in.

Isiah is one of those guys like Iverson that how you rate him depend on how highly you rate the ability to call your own number a lot with the ball in your hands. Never that efficient but had good scoring/assist numbers (declining as the Bad Boys came into their rings) and, like Iverson, was always viewed by the sports media as much better than stat nerds and impact numbers tend to rate him

[kcktiny]

Adams at least split the PG duties

The 3 seasons (1987-88 to 1989-90) they played together on Denver Lever averaged 7.4 ast/g, Adams 6.3 ast/g (7.9 vs. 7.2 ast/40min). Lever had more assists each season than did Adams. If you want to label Adams the PG because he was the smaller player be my guest. Semantics at best.

and covered PGs defensively in 87-88 to 89-90 with Lever as the 2 guard

Wrong.

Who was guarding Magic when the Nuggets played the Lakers 1987-88 to 1989-90? Do you recall?

On the contrary those 3 seasons Lever always guarded the tougher backcourt opponent - SG or PG - because he a far better defender than Adams.

OP didn't try to claim he was a PG but with the DJ discussion trending that way

Again, Dennis Johnson did not become a starting PG until his 9th season in the league when he was 30 years of age. Nobody back then thought of him as a PG until Boston traded Gerald Henderson away to Seattle. His first 8 seasons in the league he averaged throwing less than 300 assists per season, did not throw for as many as 400 assists in any of those seasons, he played SG first and foremost.

The 3 seasons prior to Adams going to Denver Lever averaged throwing for 600+ assists/season, threw for the 5th most assists (1851) among all players.

Adams at least split the PG duties

Well then you can use the same logic for the 1984-85 Celtics - D.J. threw for 543 assists, Ainge 399 assists (6.8 vs. 5.3 ast/g, 7.3 vs. 6.2 ast/40min).

According to you did Ainge at least split the PG duties? Or do you just associate Adams as a PG because he was smaller than Lever?

[trex_8063]

We're also obviously forgetting Isiah Thomas haha. I think he's clearly the second best PG of the 80's.

Thomas was nowhere near the defender Cheeks was, and compared to Cheeks was a turnover machine.

Cheeks had just two seasons of 200+ turnovers in the 80s, never committed more than 238. Thomas averaged 300+ turnovers/season in the 80s.

Thomas had 439 more assists than did Cheeks in the 80s, but at the cost of 660 more turnovers.

But he scored 3,118 more points for those 660 extra turnovers, too, getting off 3836 more true shooting attempts than Cheeks (bear in mind even missed shots is still a chance for an offensive rebound).

You're stepping into the common pitfall of evaluating turnover economy only through Ast:TO ratio when, in fact, turnovers are more commonly committed while a player is attempting to score himself (or engage in other activity [aside from passing to a teammate]).

Look at supposed turnover machine Isiah Thomas and his career Ast:TO ratio of 2.46 vs Kawhi Leonard's 1.84.

So Kawhi must be a 'turnover machine' compared to Isiah. Except we know Kawhi is downright elite in turnover economy......it's just that he's called upon to SCORE a lot more than Isiah.
Just as Isiah was called upon for that purpose much more than Cheeks.


This isn't to say that Cheeks' turnover economy isn't better; it is (at least in the rs, not really so in the ps). But the gap is not near as large as you imply (and isn't there at all in the playoffs).

[kcktiny]

But he scored 3,118 more points for those 660 extra turnovers, too, getting off 3836 more true shooting attempts than Cheeks (bear in mind even missed shots is still a chance for an offensive rebound).

Yes he did. You are correct.

You're stepping into the common pitfall of evaluating turnover economy

But what you are not accounting for is scoring efficiency.

In the 1980s (1979-80 to 1988-89) Thomas missed 5714 FGAs, Cheeks missed 3468. Tell me, from a team perspective, what is the difference between a player committing a turnover and a player missing a shot that is rebounded by the opponent?

As far as I can tell there is none. In both cases a team does not score, and lost possession of the ball, due to something an individual player did.

Now over the decade of the 80s Cheeks shot much better on 2s (neither player attempted many 3s) 53.6% to 47.7%. That's a large 6% difference not over just a few games or a season but 8-10 seasons and some 23,000+ minutes played per player.

The average defensive rebounding percentage in the 80s ranged annually from 66.5% to 67.6%. Detroit's opponent defensive rebounding percentage was actually at 67.6% the years Thomas played, Philly's opponent defensive rebounding percentage was at 65.5% the years Cheeks played.

So let's estimate the points each player cost his team.

That means Thomas himself cost his team approximately 5714 x 0.676 = 3863 or something near that team possessions where they did not score, Cheeks 3468 x 0.655 = 2272 or something around there.

Add to that Cheeks' 1777 turnovers and Thomas' 2437 turnovers. Cheeks would be at something like 5.3 times per game his team did not score because of something he specifically did, Thomas 9.9-10.0 times per game. Back then the annual average league points per 100 possessions scored/allowed was about 1.05 to 1.06. So per game in the 80s Cheeks' turnovers and missed shots were costing his team about 5.5-5.6 points per game, Thomas' around 10.4 points per game.

And we haven't even mentioned each player's defense. Cheeks was all-defensive team 5 times in the 80s, Thomas never sniffed an all-defensive team. How many points did Cheeks save the 76ers compared to what Thomas saved the Pistons because of his much better defense?

But the gap is not near as large as you imply

It's even larger.

[penbeast0]

Adams at least split the PG duties

The 3 seasons (1987-88 to 1989-90) they played together on Denver Lever averaged 7.4 ast/g, Adams 6.3 ast/g (7.9 vs. 7.2 ast/40min). Lever had more assists each season than did Adams. If you want to label Adams the PG because he was the smaller player be my guest. Semantics at best.

and covered PGs defensively in 87-88 to 89-90 with Lever as the 2 guard

Wrong.

Who was guarding Magic when the Nuggets played the Lakers 1987-88 to 1989-90? Do you recall?

On the contrary those 3 seasons Lever always guarded the tougher backcourt opponent - SG or PG - because he a far better defender than Adams.

OP didn't try to claim he was a PG but with the DJ discussion trending that way

Again, Dennis Johnson did not become a starting PG until his 9th season in the league when he was 30 years of age. Nobody back then thought of him as a PG until Boston traded Gerald Henderson away to Seattle. His first 8 seasons in the league he averaged throwing less than 300 assists per season, did not throw for as many as 400 assists in any of those seasons, he played SG first and foremost.

The 3 seasons prior to Adams going to Denver Lever averaged throwing for 600+ assists/season, threw for the 5th most assists (1851) among all players.

Adams at least split the PG duties

Well then you can use the same logic for the 1984-85 Celtics - D.J. threw for 543 assists, Ainge 399 assists (6.8 vs. 5.3 ast/g, 7.3 vs. 6.2 ast/40min).

According to you did Ainge at least split the PG duties? Or do you just associate Adams as a PG because he was smaller than Lever?

Again, Lever and Adams split PG duties with Adams the nominal PG because he was, as you say, smaller but the responsiblities shared. Lever had a few more assists but only a few and once Adams got there, they split the bringing up the ball and initiating the offense duties that tend to define the PG while Lever generally guarded the bigger of the opposing guards (yes, not the pg necessarily though for most teams other than the Lakers that was the wing).

It is true that Lever before Adams got there was primarily a PG, playing next to TR Dunn who had few offensive skills. Adams was also a (backup) point before coming to Denver, averaging 6 and 7 assists compared to only 10 and 13 points per 36. And, the year after Lever's prime, Adams averaged more than 10 assists a game, no longer splitting the duties so he clearly had PG skills as well.

Not sure why this is controversial or a problem. It's a tangent to the original discussion anyway.

[kcktiny]

And, the year after Lever's prime, Adams averaged more than 10 assists a game

What, no asterisk next to that statement?

That was a fun team to watch, unless you were a Nuggets fan. A tad easier to get all those assists when you average 108 shots a game (no team since has averaged even 100 shots/game). That Denver team was the fastest, er, speediest, in the NBA since the NBA/ABA merger.

Did you know Adams is just 1 of 7 players in NBA history to average 27+ pts/g and 10+ ast/g in a season? Or that that season he set a league record for most 3s attempted by a player in a season (564), while also shooting the lowest/worst 3pt FG% (29.6%) of all players that had attempted 200+ 3s in a season up and to 1990-91?

Watch on YouTube

Gotta love those 162-158 no overtime season openers:

Watch on YouTube

Not sure why this is controversial or a problem.

It's not. Don't you like discussing 80s NBA hoops?

It's a tangent to the original discussion anyway.

Correct. That's why these threads are so much fun. They can go in any direction.