RealGM

Who is the better player?

I assume this question asks about their respective primes.

rand wrote:I assume this question asks about their respective primes.

Yes, in their primes, although it's not like Draymond has ever been much better than he is now imo.

Gooner wrote:

rand wrote:I assume this question asks about their respective primes.

Yes, in their primes, although it's not like Draymond has ever been much better than he is now imo.

Like when he was the DPOY, and/or receiving league MVP votes?

mcfly1204 wrote:

Gooner wrote:

rand wrote:I assume this question asks about their respective primes.

Yes, in their primes, although it's not like Draymond has ever been much better than he is now imo.

Like when he was the DPOY, and/or receiving league MVP votes?

The Draymond disrespect is so real. I appreciate it though, really separates the casuals.

Siakam now, Draymond a few years ago

Gooner wrote:

rand wrote:I assume this question asks about their respective primes.

Yes, in their primes, although it's not like Draymond has ever been much better than he is now imo.

Prime Draymond was a great offensive big. He averaged 15,10,6,2,2 on .55ts in the 16 playoffs and was 19,11,8 on .55ts in 6 games w/o Steph leading Warriors to a 4-2 record wouldve been 5-1 if not for a last second Harden game winner. Current Draymond isnt capable of anything close to that offensively as we saw against the Wolves w/o Steph he is a shell of himself even if he has regained some of the lost 3pt shot

Since this is a prime discussion:

It has to he Draymond because he is the better defender, the best pure passer, and had some scoring chops at his peak albeit clearly more limited than Siakam.

From 2015-2020, Draymond Green is 2nd in the NBA in Playoffs PIPM
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/j9xodj/from_20152020_playoffs_the_highest_rated_players/

This is significant because PIPM is too box-score dependent, yet someone like Draymond comes out looking so good in the metric, despite so much of what he does not showing up in the box-score.

It is not just PIPM of box-hybrid models that that are high on Draymond. From 2014-2019, Draymond lead the NBA in PS RAPTOR WAR.

From 15-17, Draymond is 2nd in PS AuPM/G.

And when you consider that Golden State's defense improves from the RS to PS more than almost any dynasty ever, I think it makes sense to look towards Draymond for a lot of Golden State's success.



As a matter of fact, RAPTOR projections considered Draymond to be the NBA player who improved most from the RS to PS in the NBA during that time frame at a whopping 1.4 points per 100 possessions. The next most improved player was Lebron who was at 0.9 pts per 100 possessions. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-our-raptor-metric-works/

According to AuPM/G, which has data going back to 96-97, no player has improved more in from the RS to PS in their career than Draymond Green. As mentioned in the article, "among players with at least five qualifying runs, Green has the largest improvement in AuPM history. And this isn’t from slow-rolling the regular season either. In the seven seasons he’s played in the postseason, Green’s posted a hefty +3.5 AuPM per game in the regular season and then a whopping +4.7 in the playoffs. That’s like going from the sixth-best player in the league to the second." https://backpicks.com/page/6/

Kevin Pelton also wrote an article about how Draymond was statistically the 2nd biggest playoff riser during some specific time period, but I cannot find it

If you want numbers that look at the pure plus-minus side of things (and does not include anything pertaining to the box-score), I should note, Draymond looks arguably better...

Draymond is #1 in 14-18 PS RAPM, and #1 in 15-19 PS RAPM.

He is also #2 in @jalengreen Career RAPM that goes from 1997-2021
https://public.tableau.com/views/PostseasonRAPM1997-2021/PostseasonRAPM1997-2021?%3Aembed=y&%3AshowVizHome=no#2

If we know GSW's offense declines in the PS, but their defense makes one of the biggest improvements ever, and we know that Draymond has been the captain of those GSW offenses, and all the data we have suggests he is among the biggest improvers in performance come PS time, I will put my money on him.

To me, Siakam has more so hovered as an all-star level guy, but has not demonstrated the highs of Draymond.

mcfly1204 wrote:

Gooner wrote:

rand wrote:I assume this question asks about their respective primes.

Yes, in their primes, although it's not like Draymond has ever been much better than he is now imo.

Like when he was the DPOY, and/or receiving league MVP votes?

Considering he was likely the league's best defender this year...

XTC wrote:

mcfly1204 wrote:

Gooner wrote:
Yes, in their primes, although it's not like Draymond has ever been much better than he is now imo.

Like when he was the DPOY, and/or receiving league MVP votes?

The Draymond disrespect is so real. I appreciate it though, really separates the casuals.

We've never seen Green putting up 3 30 point games in a conference finals and winning the MVP.

This is not a serious discussion in all honesty.

We’ve seen them at their best. Pascal is not even a great playoff scorer. And that’s his thing, to score. He’s never in his life been a dominant defender, just a Jack of all trades who thrives at nothing defensively.


This is probably more egregious than the Butler vs Harden threads circa 2020.

This guy has a solid series, and I mean truly solid, not even dominant - on a Karl Towns frontline and now he’s comparable to peak Draymond. Against all evidence.

ShotCreator wrote:This is not a serious discussion in all honesty.

We’ve seen them at their best. Pascal is not even a great playoff scorer. And that’s his thing, to score. He’s never in his life been a dominant defender, just a Jack of all trades who thrives at nothing defensively.


This is probably more egregious than the Butler vs Harden threads circa 2020.

This guy has a solid series, and I mean truly solid, not even dominant - on a Karl Towns frontline and now he’s comparable to peak Draymond. Against all evidence.

What's peak Draymond? I guess it's that season when he averaged 14 points. Some of you make "peak Draymond" seem like some kind of mythical figure. Siakam is a very good scorer and a defender. He is a complete player that can shoot, handle, pass, post up and defend different positions. He is a proven
second option on a championship team, Green has never been that. Green is a perennial triple single player and whenever Curry is out, he has no impact. He has his value as a role player on stacked teams. He would have never had the status that he has without a unique player like Curry.

Gooner wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:This is not a serious discussion in all honesty.

We’ve seen them at their best. Pascal is not even a great playoff scorer. And that’s his thing, to score. He’s never in his life been a dominant defender, just a Jack of all trades who thrives at nothing defensively.


This is probably more egregious than the Butler vs Harden threads circa 2020.

This guy has a solid series, and I mean truly solid, not even dominant - on a Karl Towns frontline and now he’s comparable to peak Draymond. Against all evidence.

What's peak Draymond? I guess it's that season when he averaged 14 points. Some of you make "peak Draymond" seem like some kind of mythical figure. Siakam is a very good scorer and a defender. He is a complete player that can shoot, handle, pass, post up and defend different positions. He is a proven
second option on a championship team, Green has never been that. Green is a perennial triple single player and whenever Curry is out, he has no impact. He has his value as a role player on stacked teams. He would have never had the status that he has without a unique player like Curry.

Draymond in the 2016 playoffs was literally 4-2 in games Steph missed, leading GSW past two playoff teams.

What did Siakam do in the playoffs without Hali/Kawhi/Lowry et al??

theonlyclutch wrote:

Gooner wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:This is not a serious discussion in all honesty.

We’ve seen them at their best. Pascal is not even a great playoff scorer. And that’s his thing, to score. He’s never in his life been a dominant defender, just a Jack of all trades who thrives at nothing defensively.


This is probably more egregious than the Butler vs Harden threads circa 2020.

This guy has a solid series, and I mean truly solid, not even dominant - on a Karl Towns frontline and now he’s comparable to peak Draymond. Against all evidence.

What's peak Draymond? I guess it's that season when he averaged 14 points. Some of you make "peak Draymond" seem like some kind of mythical figure. Siakam is a very good scorer and a defender. He is a complete player that can shoot, handle, pass, post up and defend different positions. He is a proven
second option on a championship team, Green has never been that. Green is a perennial triple single player and whenever Curry is out, he has no impact. He has his value as a role player on stacked teams. He would have never had the status that he has without a unique player like Curry.

Draymond in the 2016 playoffs was literally 4-2 in games Steph missed, leading GSW past two playoff teams.

What did Siakam do in the playoffs without Hali/Kawhi/Lowry et al??

Klay was the first option and that's a small sample size. We know very well what Green is at this point. A perennial triple single guy. Can't shoot, can't post up, he is not really a 4 or a 5.

XTC wrote:The Draymond disrespect is so real. I appreciate it though, really separates the casuals.

It’s a pretty good litmus test, especially when you see the use of “triple-single.”

Gooner wrote:Yes, in their primes, although it's not like Draymond has ever been much better than he is now imo.

Gooner wrote:What's peak Draymond? I guess it's that season when he averaged 14 points. Some of you make "peak Draymond" seem like some kind of mythical figure. Siakam is a very good scorer and a defender. He is a complete player that can shoot, handle, pass, post up and defend different positions. He is a proven
second option on a championship team, Green has never been that. Green is a perennial triple single player and whenever Curry is out, he has no impact. He has his value as a role player on stacked teams. He would have never had the status that he has without a unique player like Curry.

Gooner wrote:Klay was the first option and that's a small sample size. We know very well what Green is at this point. A perennial triple single guy. Can't shoot, can't post up, he is not really a 4 or a 5.

Jesus...Gooner activated after 2 years of hibernation, solid takes as always.

Green is a tough one to evaluate. His defensive value is pretty clear. Tougher to evaluate his offense. He isn't a good scorer. He isn't a good shooter, blows in isolation, doesn't have post skills, etc. So like, you know that he has stringent limitations on how he can contribute. He's a good passer, but it's also easy to look VERY good when you're surrounded by the types of talent he's been surrounded by. Again, his skill is evident, but he's also in a maximally-beneficial environment, so it's a bit tough to evaluate the full measure of his utility separated from having Steph/Klay and sometimes KD around him, you know?

Between the two of these guys, context is extremely relevant. Siakam is reliant upon a high-end guard to help drive his offense, to at least some extent. He's a good defender as well, though far from a DPOY-level guy.

It's an interesting question, and I think the question "for what context" is of extreme relevance to my answer.

tsherkin wrote:Green is a tough one to evaluate. His defensive value is pretty clear. Tougher to evaluate his offense. He isn't a good scorer. He isn't a good shooter, blows in isolation, doesn't have post skills, etc. So like, you know that he has stringent limitations on how he can contribute. He's a good passer, but it's also easy to look VERY good when you're surrounded by the types of talent he's been surrounded by. Again, his skill is evident, but he's also in a maximally-beneficial environment, so it's a bit tough to evaluate the full measure of his utility separated from having Steph/Klay and sometimes KD around him, you know?

Between the two of these guys, context is extremely relevant. Siakam is reliant upon a high-end guard to help drive his offense, to at least some extent. He's a good defender as well, though far from a DPOY-level guy.

It's an interesting question, and I think the question "for what context" is of extreme relevance to my answer.

Context is always important when we are comparing players in a team sport. But when we compare individual palyers we have to look at the skillset and how valuable that is to a team. Siakam is clearly more skilled and capable offensively, and he is a versatile defender himself. He is the type of player you can put into any team and he'll be good. Green can only be relevant in this pefect context that he has been in.

Gooner wrote:Context is always important when we are comparing players in a team sport. But when we compare individual palyers we have to look at the skillset and how valuable that is to a team. Siakam is clearly more skilled and capable offensively, and he is a versatile defender himself. He is the type of player you can put into any team and he'll be good. Green can only be relevant in this pefect context that he has been in.

I don't really agree with that.

Yeah, Pascal can score pretty well. But he does that best with a better player in front of him, so that limits the utility of his scoring, especially because he is only so good at creating for others. He isn't the engine around whom you build an offense, for example. He's more of a play-finisher, even if that includes his ability to score in isolation or in the post.

Draymond's a defensive anchor; that's going to have value to any team on which he plays, and because he isn't a possession-chewer as a volume scorer, he can fit into most offensive contexts just fine, especially because he' a 3/4 who can sometimes play small-ball 5. If he goes to a team where the need is volume scoring, he'll have a lot less utility on offense, but everyone can always use a defender like that.

So it's actually a far, far closer argument than you're making it out to be. If Siakam was a tier higher as a player and more of an authentic offensive engine, it'd be a different story, but it isn't that.

tsherkin wrote:

Gooner wrote:Context is always important when we are comparing players in a team sport. But when we compare individual palyers we have to look at the skillset and how valuable that is to a team. Siakam is clearly more skilled and capable offensively, and he is a versatile defender himself. He is the type of player you can put into any team and he'll be good. Green can only be relevant in this pefect context that he has been in.

I don't really agree with that.

Yeah, Pascal can score pretty well. But he does that best with a better player in front of him, so that limits the utility of his scoring, especially because he is only so good at creating for others. He isn't the engine around whom you build an offense, for example. He's more of a play-finisher, even if that includes his ability to score in isolation or in the post.

Draymond's a defensive anchor; that's going to have value to any team on which he plays, and because he isn't a possession-chewer as a volume scorer, he can fit into most offensive contexts just fine, especially because he' a 3/4 who can sometimes play small-ball 5. If he goes to a team where the need is volume scoring, he'll have a lot less utility on offense, but everyone can always use a defender like that.

So it's actually a far, far closer argument than you're making it out to be. If Siakam was a tier higher as a player and more of an authentic offensive engine, it'd be a different story, but it isn't that.

Siakam is more than just a finisher, he can do so much stuff offensively. He is not the engine of the team, but he is a power forward, not a point guard. Obviously Haliburton is the driving force of the team. Still, look how much better Siakam made Indiana since he got there. In a year and a half since he got there they've become a finals team. He is not the only reason for that, but he is a big reason.

I'm not saying it's not a close argument, that's why I asked the question in the first place because it's interesting. But I'm looking at Siakam and see him as just a similar type of player to Draymond Green, but superior in pretty much everything.

When it comes to anchoring the defense Green is better when playing the 5, but Siakam has played plenty of minutes as a 5 for Indiana and he held his own. Siakam is an elite power forward, we know what he is, while Green still doesn't have a defined position. His impact has come mostly as a small ball 5, but that has it's limitations. When Curry got injured against Minnesota, nobody could expect Green to step up and be a difference maker in that series. And for all his defensive qualities, he got dominated by Julius Randle. Siakam also outplayed him in that 2019 final.