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How do they compare against 3 and D guys who are kind of dime a dozen in today's NBA?

How do they compare against guys like Herbert Jones, Jaden McDaniels, Dillon Brooks, NAW, OG, Bridges, etc.,

How many teams would they start on? what teams would they not start on?

Battier's great. Not lacking anything necessary to succeed at a similar level in today's game in a similar role. Bowen's solid at the right salary, but obviously his abysmal FT% isn't desirable and he had no offensive game beyond transition and the corner.

tsherkin wrote:Battier's great. Not lacking anything necessary to succeed at a similar level in today's game in a similar role. Bowen's solid at the right salary, but obviously his abysmal FT% isn't desirable and he had no offensive game beyond transition and the corner.

The league is also less tolerant now of Bowen's dirtiest tricks, particularly putting his feet in a shooter's landing zone. That and kicking people in the face, that kind of stuff.

Battier was a far more complete offensive player. As you point out, Bowen was extremely limited.

As noted in the Bowen thread, he was extremely limited on offense. He's so good on defense he'd still hold up as a 5th starter - probably. Some concern that teams running more switching type defenses makes him less valuable there (and he needs to be giving a lot of value on D to be on the court).

Battier's a much better all-around player. While not a major offense-creator he's got solid all=around offensive skills to complement high-level defense.

Bowen struggles to find a roster spot. Maybe has a spark w/ a team but not longstanding. If the Zaza rule doesn't take him out his extremely limited offense would he was one of the most limited one dimensional offensive players ever. Is there a less capable and skilled offensive perimeter player in the Nba today in 2025 than Bowen? I can't think of any. Any getting serious minutes? No chance. He could legit be locking up fools in China or Australia today

Battier would be great. Elite 3 and d. Better version of Dorian Finney or at least Mavs Dorian. Battier was arguably as impactful if not more than Pau those last Memphis years. He had mega role player impact. Shane could have a Caruso type impact today

Outside wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Battier's great. Not lacking anything necessary to succeed at a similar level in today's game in a similar role. Bowen's solid at the right salary, but obviously his abysmal FT% isn't desirable and he had no offensive game beyond transition and the corner.

The league is also less tolerant now of Bowen's dirtiest tricks, particularly putting his feet in a shooter's landing zone. That and kicking people in the face, that kind of stuff.

Battier was a far more complete offensive player. As you point out, Bowen was extremely limited.

And yes, Bowen was horrendously dirty. But he also kind of got the Draymond Green treatment in his time, so I suppose it depends on if we mean Miami Bowen or San Antonio Bowen, heh.

giordunk wrote:How do they compare against 3 and D guys who are kind of dime a dozen in today's NBA?

How do they compare against guys like Herbert Jones, Jaden McDaniels, Dillon Brooks, NAW, OG, Bridges, etc.,

How many teams would they start on? what teams would they not start on?

Battier starts on any team today honestly. He wasn’t really a 3 & D guy so much as a high BBIQ guy with exception work ethic both physically and mentally. Stats from any era would be thrilled to have him as their dependable role player.

Bowen would be fringe guy who may or may not have a real NBA career because, as you say, he’s a bare bones 3 & D guy and there are many of those today.


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giberish wrote:As noted in the Bowen thread, he was extremely limited on offense. He's so good on defense he'd still hold up as a 5th starter - probably. Some concern that teams running more switching type defenses makes him less valuable there (and he needs to be giving a lot of value on D to be on the court).

Battier's a much better all-around player. While not a major offense-creator he's got solid all=around offensive skills to complement high-level defense.

You have good thoughts but I think we need to note:

He only ever really started on the Spurs, and it wasn’t because he was one of their 5 best players - it was because of the choice to stagger their talent.


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Outside wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Battier's great. Not lacking anything necessary to succeed at a similar level in today's game in a similar role. Bowen's solid at the right salary, but obviously his abysmal FT% isn't desirable and he had no offensive game beyond transition and the corner.

The league is also less tolerant now of Bowen's dirtiest tricks, particularly putting his feet in a shooter's landing zone. That and kicking people in the face, that kind of stuff.

Battier was a far more complete offensive player. As you point out, Bowen was extremely limited.

I'm way more worried about how Bowen's offense would translate than his defense. Bowen was a prototype for the 3 & D player but he was considerably limited by current standard. He could only hit 3s from one spot on the court at an acceptable rate. Other than that he was a dreadful offensive player who limited 2000s' offenses. That would be significantly more problematic than if he was playing in 2025.

Your free throw point is astute because it tells something about his general shooting ability. Whenever I think about how a player would do today I ask myself "how much would this player benefit from modern coaching/training." If Bowen had the exact same 3 point game in the 2000s but was a >85% free throw shooter I'd have a lot more confidence he could develop a complete 3 point game. There isn't a perfect coorelation between free throw shooting and 3 point shooting but there is a relationship. At a high enough level, the vast majority of players can shoot threes and at a low enough one they can't. Bowen was a dreadful free throw shooter and that leads me to believe his shooting couldn't be fixed. His corner three was a herculean effort which I credit him for but I have little confidence he could expand on it today.

On defense, his man defense was really strong and could survive losing some of the dirty tricks he couldn't use, which you correctly listed above. I think he was like Draymond in that he would quickly figure out the acceptable line of conduct and play right next to it.

I don't have much to say about Battier, everyone else already covered it. I'd love to have him on the Knicks now and every team would benefit from him.

Doctor MJ wrote:

giberish wrote:As noted in the Bowen thread, he was extremely limited on offense. He's so good on defense he'd still hold up as a 5th starter - probably. Some concern that teams running more switching type defenses makes him less valuable there (and he needs to be giving a lot of value on D to be on the court).

Battier's a much better all-around player. While not a major offense-creator he's got solid all=around offensive skills to complement high-level defense.

You have good thoughts but I think we need to note:

He only ever really started on the Spurs, and it wasn’t because he was one of their 5 best players - it was because of the choice to stagger their talent.


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Well he obviously wasn't remotely as good as Manu, but that's not relevant. He was similar or better than their other wings and around their 5th best player on an elite team (and this was during his prime so it makes sense that this was when he'd start - he'd only start in his prime).

Every team in the league would love a Shane Battier on their roster and he'd play serious minutes. Great defender, high BBIQ, shoots the 3 well. Good size too so he can defend bigs who like to hang on the perimeter.

Bowen I'm less sure on. There are significant limitations.

Battier is a great role player in every era.

I’m surprised so many think Bowen wouldn’t work in this era. His impact was definitely more specific than Battier’s. His impact is also harder to truly gauge because Duncan was also on his team.

I don’t think he was a Tony Allen level destructive defender. I think Allen gets a bigger share of the Allen/Gasol defensive impact than Bowen with him and Duncan. I think the Spurs system and Duncan inside helped him maximize himself.

But he was a great annoying defender who figured out he could hit the corner 3. His FT% was 57.5% in the NBA which is clearly awful but I think it’s still good enough for him to prevent the Mitch/DeAndre treatment based on the math.

PJ Tucker averaged 6.5 PPG on .543 TS% with the Rockets from ‘18-‘21. Bowen averaged 6.2 PPG on .522 TS% in 29.7 MPG with the Spurs from ‘02-‘09.

Both corner 3 specialists on offense. Tucker was tougher and stronger which allowed more versatility in the switch era, but Bowen was clearly a better guard and overall perimeter defender. Not a destructor like Allen but a classic disruptor.

If PJ Tucker, who I’ve always liked and been a fan of, can be a valuable DnCorner3 player who plays more than 30 MPG for a contending team just 5 years ago… Bowen would be able to do the same in the right situation as well. Because he was better than Tucker and at least hit corner 3s well unlike Allen.

O_6 wrote:Battier is a great role player in every era.

I’m surprised so many think Bowen wouldn’t work in this era. His impact was definitely more specific than Battier’s. His impact is also harder to truly gauge because Duncan was also on his team.

I don’t think he was a Tony Allen level destructive defender. I think Allen gets a bigger share of the Allen/Gasol defensive impact than Bowen with him and Duncan. I think the Spurs system and Duncan inside helped him maximize himself.

But he was a great annoying defender who figured out he could hit the corner 3. His FT% was 57.5% in the NBA which is clearly awful but I think it’s still good enough for him to prevent the Mitch/DeAndre treatment based on the math.

PJ Tucker averaged 6.5 PPG on .543 TS% with the Rockets from ‘18-‘21. Bowen averaged 6.2 PPG on .522 TS% in 29.7 MPG with the Spurs from ‘02-‘09.

Both corner 3 specialists on offense. Tucker was tougher and stronger which allowed more versatility in the switch era, but Bowen was clearly a better guard and overall perimeter defender. Not a destructor like Allen but a classic disruptor.

If PJ Tucker, who I’ve always liked and been a fan of, can be a valuable DnCorner3 player who plays more than 30 MPG for a contending team just 5 years ago… Bowen would be able to do the same in the right situation as well. Because he was better than Tucker and at least hit corner 3s well unlike Allen.

Pj was one of the best undersized rebounders in the league tho. He played alot of 4 and Houston even infamously had that Tuckwagon lineup where he played the 5 and they didnt get burned even in 20 they had alot of success after trading Capela and Pj and Roco were their "bigs". They destroyed teams even in 18 and gave the Kd Warriors hell w/ that lineup. Bowen doesnt have the strength or rebounding to play in lineups like that and body up bigs on the glass, box out, grab boards he is much more limited

I also think Bowen would fare better than most. We still have 3&D guys who are corner specialists. Oh its not as clear cut because its a bit harder today to get guys just corner shots, but there are guys who are 40% from the corner but no threat from above the break. Bowen wouldn't become unplayable because of that or FT%. I mean how many FT's are we even expecting him to take? He averaged 1 FTA for his career. That's just a total non-factor.

it's hard for even the best shooters to get on the court these days if they have no off the dribble juice. you have to be able to attack a rotating defense. i think prime battier has just enough (he lost his legs pretty quickly) but bowen does not.

clearlynotjesse wrote:it's hard for even the best shooters to get on the court these days if they have no off the dribble juice. you have to be able to attack a rotating defense. i think prime battier has just enough (he lost his legs pretty quickly) but bowen does not.

Not really. Idk who you're describing, but an all world defensive player will get minutes anywhere as long as they can hit a corner three. Their role doesn't need to be expanded further than being a floor spacer for their star player.

I have some doubts on Bowen because there is no Duncan in the NBA to play off of. History shows that most if not all Spurs players are shells of themselves when they aren't playing with David Robinson or Tim Duncan. Tony Parker, Sean Elliot, Del Negro, Avery Johnson all looked like good NBA players in Spurs uniforms but ouch were they a disappointment w/o HoF big men guarding the rim/drawing double teams.

Warspite wrote:I have some doubts on Bowen because there is no Duncan in the NBA to play off of. History shows that most if not all Spurs players are shells of themselves when they aren't playing with David Robinson or Tim Duncan. Tony Parker, Sean Elliot, Del Negro, Avery Johnson all looked like good NBA players in Spurs uniforms but ouch were they a disappointment w/o HoF big men guarding the rim/drawing double teams.

Not clear why you're mentioning Tony Parker. He played exactly one season without Tim Duncan, at age 36, his final year in the league. Not really a hot sample from which to evaluate his play without Tim. And, as he had been for several seasons in a row at that point, he wasn't healthy, playing only 56 games, and 17.9 mpg.

Sean Elliott was never touted as a perennial star. He made two All-Star games, and posted about his career averages in the 97 tank season without Robinson. He was also never healthy with Duncan except for the 99 lockout season, otherwise playing 36, 19 and 52 games.

VDN peaked at 14.5 ppg but was largely not a special player at all, and was both in his 30s and plagued with injuries by the time Duncan was drafted and Robinson wound down. He looked like a reasonable roleplayer before he buggered off from Sacramento to play internationally, and then came back.

Avery Johnson looked fine in Golden State the year before he came to San Antonio. By the time he left, he was injury-plagued in his late 30s.

Not really a good way to evaluate these guys. Everyone knows they weren't focal points, but most of your sample of evaluation is end-of-career stuff with older, injury-plagued guys. And no one expected them to be monster players when they weren't featured in complementary roles...

Battier was the better player, but both would still be good... however, today's role players play a lot better, so I think to some degree they lose value.

The nobodies of the league can put 20+ points on the right night and shoot 3s at crazy rates. They'd still have a lot of value for their defense tough.