RealGM

Who do you think the better overall player is? Pippen is obviously the more complete player and better defender. Kyrie is clearly the better scorer and can make really difficult buckets in crunch time and during the playoffs. Who do you think the better overall player is? Use your judgement how you define that. It can be a short peak or over their career, whoever you think is more conducive to winning.

I think Jordan's best ever career teammate was better than Lebron's 5th best career teammate.

I’d take Pippen. He’s bigger, more versatile, can play PG, SG and SF, is a bigger/better/more versatile defender etc. Kyrie is a better all around scorer and one on one player.

Scottie was 3rd in MVP voting in '94, Kyrie has never even finished top 15 there in any season.

Kyrie’s 2016 Finals was better than any Finals series Pippen had.

But Pippen was a better overall player and had a better overall career.

Is it really a serious question? Pippen and it’s not even a discussion really. Pippen made 7 all NBA teams including 3 1st teams.
Kyrie has made 3 all NBA teams, 0 first.

ScrantonBulls wrote:Who do you think the better overall player is? Pippen is obviously the more complete player and better defender. Kyrie is clearly the better scorer and can make really difficult buckets in crunch time and during the playoffs. Who do you think the better overall player is? Use your judgement how you define that. It can be a short peak or over their career, whoever you think is more conducive to winning.

ummm,,,i think if you're going to be fair you have to give reasons why you think kyrie deserves to be compared to scottie AS A COMPLETE PLAYER, instead of just saying he scores great

ball_takes23 wrote:I think Jordan's best ever career teammate was better than Lebron's 5th best career teammate.

Pippen is viewed better because Pippen played with Jordan as long as he could and Kyrie bailed on James.

NZB2323 wrote:Kyrie’s 2016 Finals was better than any Finals series Pippen had.

But Pippen was a better overall player and had a better overall career.

I would take just about any of Pippens finals apart from 98 over Kyrie's 2016 finals. Just watched the 2016 finals recently and I didn't realize how bad Irving was outside of scoring.

Iwasawitness wrote:

NZB2323 wrote:Kyrie’s 2016 Finals was better than any Finals series Pippen had.

But Pippen was a better overall player and had a better overall career.

I would take just about any of Pippens finals apart from 98 over Kyrie's 2016 finals. Just watched the 2016 finals recently and I didn't realize how bad Irving was outside of scoring.

I mean, some other series the stats aren’t close

Kyrie 2016 Finals: 27, 4, and 4, 56.4 TS%, 19.1 GmSc
Pippen 1996 Finals: 16, 8, and 5, 42.9 TS%, 13.4 GmSc

Pippen’s a better defensive player though, which the stats don’t capture, but Kyrie’s ability to outplay Curry in that series and help beat a 73 win team to me is more impressive than any of Pippen’s finals series. IMHO Pippen’s most impressive playoff series is the 91 ECF where he averaged 22, 8, and 5, 3 steals, 2 blocks, 56.3 TS%, 20.2 GmSc, as the Bulls swept the defending champion Pistons and outscored them by 44 points in the series.

Kyrie also has to be dinged for everything else. Pippen is 47th in WS. Kyrie is 123rd. Pippen in 26th in VORP, Kyrie is 50th.

Johnny Bball wrote:

ball_takes23 wrote:I think Jordan's best ever career teammate was better than Lebron's 5th best career teammate.

Pippen is viewed better because Pippen played with Jordan as long as he could and Kyrie bailed on James.

Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting without Jordan, and helped the Trailblazers make the WCF in 2000. Kyrie helped the Mavs reach the finals last year, but outside of that his career has kind of been a disaster since he left the Cavs, and he’s played with Tatum, Brown, Durant, Harden, and Luka.

Pippen is 47th in WS. Kyrie is 123rd. Pippen in 26th in VORP, Kyrie is 50th.

NZB2323 wrote:

Johnny Bball wrote:

ball_takes23 wrote:I think Jordan's best ever career teammate was better than Lebron's 5th best career teammate.

Pippen is viewed better because Pippen played with Jordan as long as he could and Kyrie bailed on James.

Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting without Jordan, and helped the Trailblazers make the WCF in 2000. Kyrie helped the Mavs reach the finals last year, but outside of that his career has kind of been a disaster since he left the Cavs, and he’s played with Tatum, Brown, Durant, Harden, and Luka.

Pippen is 47th in WS. Kyrie is 123rd. Pippen in 26th in VORP, Kyrie is 50th.

It looks alot worse if you look at actual data instead of made up formulas:
Kyrie Irving
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=cavaliers+record+with+and+without+kyrie+irving+from+2013-14+to+2017-18
Cleveland

(47-wins without, 50-with)

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=boston+record+with+and+without+kyrie+irving+from+2017-18+to+2018-19-19
Boston

(57-win without, 50-win with)

Kyrie is a glorified Jamal Murray (who peaked significantly lower in the playoffs)

NZB2323 wrote:

Johnny Bball wrote:

ball_takes23 wrote:I think Jordan's best ever career teammate was better than Lebron's 5th best career teammate.

Pippen is viewed better because Pippen played with Jordan as long as he could and Kyrie bailed on James.

Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting without Jordan, and helped the Trailblazers make the WCF in 2000. Kyrie helped the Mavs reach the finals last year, but outside of that his career has kind of been a disaster since he left the Cavs, and he’s played with Tatum, Brown, Durant, Harden, and Luka.

Pippen is 47th in WS. Kyrie is 123rd. Pippen in 26th in VORP, Kyrie is 50th.

And..... do you not think Kyrie shows out better playing besides James near his whole career? Or do you just wanna ignore the entire point?

This might be close if we said single best year and playing in 2025. Career, Irving v. Horace Grant might be a closer comp.

NZB2323 wrote:

Iwasawitness wrote:

NZB2323 wrote:Kyrie’s 2016 Finals was better than any Finals series Pippen had.

But Pippen was a better overall player and had a better overall career.

I would take just about any of Pippens finals apart from 98 over Kyrie's 2016 finals. Just watched the 2016 finals recently and I didn't realize how bad Irving was outside of scoring.

I mean, some other series the stats aren’t close

Kyrie 2016 Finals: 27, 4, and 4, 56.4 TS%, 19.1 GmSc
Pippen 1996 Finals: 16, 8, and 5, 42.9 TS%, 13.4 GmSc

Pippen’s a better defensive player though, which the stats don’t capture, but Kyrie’s ability to outplay Curry in that series and help beat a 73 win team to me is more impressive than any of Pippen’s finals series. IMHO Pippen’s most impressive playoff series is the 91 ECF where he averaged 22, 8, and 5, 3 steals, 2 blocks, 56.3 TS%, 20.2 GmSc, as the Bulls swept the defending champion Pistons and outscored them by 44 points in the series.

Kyrie also has to be dinged for everything else. Pippen is 47th in WS. Kyrie is 123rd. Pippen in 26th in VORP, Kyrie is 50th.

Stats do not tell the entire story. Irving was consistently hunted on defense and his style of play led to a lot of empty possessions. And the non LeBron minutes were a disaster. And to be honest, I don't think any of his games apart from 5 were legitimately good.

I'll always have a soft spot for Irving but he was a lot worse than the stats suggest.

We need to keep in mind what Pippens role was compared to Irvings too. Pippen helped run the offense on top of being the second option and the Bulls primary defender. That's always going to be more valuable than a one dimensional player.

I'm usually not one to say "it's not even close" but in this case it really isn't. Pippen by a mile.

Pippen. Not close.

Johnny Bball wrote:

NZB2323 wrote:

Johnny Bball wrote:
Pippen is viewed better because Pippen played with Jordan as long as he could and Kyrie bailed on James.

Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting without Jordan, and helped the Trailblazers make the WCF in 2000. Kyrie helped the Mavs reach the finals last year, but outside of that his career has kind of been a disaster since he left the Cavs, and he’s played with Tatum, Brown, Durant, Harden, and Luka.

Pippen is 47th in WS. Kyrie is 123rd. Pippen in 26th in VORP, Kyrie is 50th.

And..... do you not think Kyrie shows out better playing besides James near his whole career? Or do you just wanna ignore the entire point?

There’s no guarantee that Kyrie and LeBron sing kumbaya and that Kyrie is the model citizen who stays healthy if he stays with LeBron. He’s had 1 season since leaving Cleveland where he played in 65 or more games.

NZB2323 wrote:

Johnny Bball wrote:

NZB2323 wrote:
Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting without Jordan, and helped the Trailblazers make the WCF in 2000. Kyrie helped the Mavs reach the finals last year, but outside of that his career has kind of been a disaster since he left the Cavs, and he’s played with Tatum, Brown, Durant, Harden, and Luka.

Pippen is 47th in WS. Kyrie is 123rd. Pippen in 26th in VORP, Kyrie is 50th.

And..... do you not think Kyrie shows out better playing besides James near his whole career? Or do you just wanna ignore the entire point?

There’s no guarantee that Kyrie and LeBron sing kumbaya and that Kyrie is the model citizen who stays healthy if he stays with LeBron. He’s had 1 season since leaving Cleveland where he played in 65 or more games.

Just as there is no guarantee Pippen was as good if he didn't play most of his career with Jordan. Not sure why you keep making this difficult.

Pipen By a Large Margin in my opinion

Scottie defensive ability is one of the best all time in SF position - Scottie being able to guard effectively 1-4 position able to match against faster guard or stronger forward offensive player and still able to hinder their room to create a play in the half court. Pippen when he isn't onball defending is a great Help defender with great awareness of advantageous situation the offensive team has or when he know his teammates is on a mismatch. Pippen might be one of the best 1-1 Prerimeter defender all time with his physicality and hand movements ( also he not a gamble for steal so his defense is less exploitable ) with a sense of screen navigation. He a great transition defender with how fast he can recover from full court distance.

Offensively - Pippen was a capable Scorer and a good playmaker with him being that ball facilitor for many years. Him being a scoring in the post + painted area make the defense Attention on him leaving his teammates open that Pippen would see the opportunity quick enough to deliver a great pass/creation to that set teammates.

The only thing I see kyrie better is as a ball handler and as a shot creator + scorer overall