Sidney Moncrief vs Gary Payton

[AStark1991]

Two of the greatest defensive guards in league history and consistent 20 PPG scorers during their best offensive seasons. Who do you think was the better all-around player when they were both at their respective peaks?

[penbeast0]

Payton gives you better playmaking and more aggressive stocks. Sid gives you more versatile defense (1-3) and much better scoring efficiency. In their healthy years, this is clearly Moncrief for me though, of course, Sid's healthy years are a much shorter period and even in those he's probably got more of a minutes limit.

[tsherkin]

Yeah, give me Moncrief on this one. Longevity compared to Payton isn't his friend, but I like his defense better, and his scoring, too. The question is about peak, after all, and I'm with Sidney here.

[eminence]

Do I get George Karl?

[penbeast0]

Do you want him?

[tsherkin]

Do you want him?

[Laimbeer]

For me Payton was just as good or maybe better defensively. On offense he was a superb point guard. Moncrief was kind of a DeMar DeRozan.

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[tsherkin]

For me Payton was just as good or maybe better defensively. On offense he was a superb point guard. Moncrief was kind of a DeMar DeRozan.

No he wasn't. He was better in the RS and no worse (on average) in the playoffs, and far better at his best. And, of course, he wasn't a disaster on defense.

For starters, he was considerably better in the RS than DeRozan. 82-86, he was a roughly 21/6/5 guy on 59.2% TS, which was 110 TS+. DeRozan has a single season north of 104 TS+, and it was at 107.

Moncrief had his struggles in the playoffs, if that's what you mean, but he had better postseasons than Demar at least 3 different times.

That is not a sound comparison.

[AStark1991]

For me Payton was just as good or maybe better defensively. On offense he was a superb point guard. Moncrief was kind of a DeMar DeRozan.

No he wasn't. He was better in the RS and no worse (on average) in the playoffs, and far better at his best. And, of course, he wasn't a disaster on defense.

For starters, he was considerably better in the RS than DeRozan. 82-86, he was a roughly 21/6/5 guy on 59.2% TS, which was 110 TS+. DeRozan has a single season north of 104 TS+, and it was at 107.

Moncrief had his struggles in the playoffs, if that's what you mean, but he had better postseasons than Demar at least 3 different times.

That is not a sound comparison.

Agreed. Not a good comparison at all. The one modern era player that reminded me the most of Moncrief was Victor Oladipo, especially during his 2017-2018 season. Both were elite perimeter defenders and aggressive slashers on offense.

[tsherkin]

Agreed. Not a good comparison at all. The one modern era player that reminded me the most of Moncrief was Victor Oladipo, especially during his 2017-2018 season. Both were elite perimeter defenders and aggressive slashers on offense.

Yeah, but obviously Oladipo was a lot worse as a scorer. But yeah, stylistically, similar enough.

[Tim Lehrbach]

I don't have an answer to the comparison, but I want to bring this up again: based purely on my unreliable memory and Seattle's team results, I tend to think Payton is quite overlooked in the ranks of great floor generals and was more of an offensive engine than his counting stats or scoring efficiency would suggest. Is there evidence in support of this claim? I mean, he had great casts, of course, but how many point guard primes generated such elite results, year after year, especially without being a prolific scorer? Nash, Stockton, Magic, and...? I feel like Gary's contribution to consistently great offenses goes unappreciated or at least underexplained. I'll hang up and listen, thanks.

[penbeast0]

For me Payton was just as good or maybe better defensively. On offense he was a superb point guard. Moncrief was kind of a DeMar DeRozan.

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I realize DeRozan is the poster boy for high scoring guards who don't take a lot of threes but it's not a good comp even ignoring era differential and Moncrief's GOAT candidate defense.

Moncrief was consistently the, or one of the, most efficient scoring guards in the NBA, probably the most efficient 20 ppg scoring guard between George Gervin and Michael Jordan. DeRozan has never broken 100 TS Added; Moncrief was over it in 5 of his 6 healthy years and over 200 at least once; the only guard to make top 5 in the league in his 4 year prime. More Kevin Durant than DeRozan in terms of value.

[tsherkin]

DeRozan has never broken 100 TS Added

I agree with all of the rest of your post. Just wanted to add, older DeRozan did get more efficient in the RS. Still sucked in the playoffs, but he ripped off 107, 103, 104, 102 and 101 TS+ with San Antonio and Chicago. In 2020, he was at +95.1 TSAdded and had a +85.0 two seasons later, so he was at least close to that marker.

But yes, Moncrief was considerably better, and has 3 or 4 postseasons where he was SIGNIFICANTLY better than the best Demar ever managed in the playoffs, which is also relevant here, even setting aside defense. Moncrief was much, much better. Demar is the Carmelo Anthony of his era: noteworthy volume in the RS, playoff collapses and frequently mediocre to poor efficiency. Plus a horrid defender.

[penbeast0]

I'm looking at bbr-com and it looks like DeRozan's peak TS Added year was 2020 in San Antonio, 95.1 TS Added but still under a hundred. Career, added all together, he's barely positive at all at 28.6. I think you may be looking at TS+ which is a different stat.

TS+ I never found terribly useful but TS Added is one of the best stats for estimating the impact of pure scoring. TS Added estimates the points created over league average scoring using both volume and efficiency.

[B-Mitch 30]

I don't have an answer to the comparison, but I want to bring this up again: based purely on my unreliable memory and Seattle's team results, I tend to think Payton is quite overlooked in the ranks of great floor generals and was more of an offensive engine than his counting stats or scoring efficiency would suggest. Is there evidence in support of this claim? I mean, he had great casts, of course, but how many point guard primes generated such elite results, year after year, especially without being a prolific scorer? Nash, Stockton, Magic, and...? I feel like Gary's contribution to consistently great offenses goes unappreciated or at least underexplained. I'll hang up and listen, thanks.

If you look at his assist and turnover percentages from 1997-2005 (the start of play-by-play data and the end of his time as a starter) Payton was probably the best point guard at passing the ball while avoiding giving it to the other team.

[tsherkin]

I'm looking at bbr-com and it looks like DeRozan's peak TS Added year was 2020 in San Antonio, 95.1 TS Added but still under a hundred.

Yes, 95 and 85 were his top two performances, as I said.

[qoute] Career, added all together, he's barely positive at all at 28.6. I think you may be looking at TS+ which is a different stat.[/quote]

I was speaking initially of TS Add, and then looking at TS+ to discuss his overall efficiency after Toronto, yes. He was an efficient RS scorer... though it dimmed some after a brief peak. To be fair, his skill set and age didn't line up well, because he was such a slow-burn in development.

And what TSAdd is showing is that his volume coupled to his +1, or +2% rTS was only so valuable, no doubt.