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Which of these PGs is greater

Stockton is the best playmaker, the only highly efficient shooter, and a strong team defender. Clearly the #1 choice by impact stats and by my eye test.

All have some case depending on what you value. Westbrook is the most explosive scorer and rebounder though with questionable decision making and efficiency. Isiah is the second most explosive scorer with good playmaking and decent defense. Kidd adds great defense and rebounding but clearly the least scoring and his clubs rarely did well offensively (though he adds more statistically to defense than any other PG). Payton also had a great defensive rep with volume scoring and good playmaking.

All were stars and great players, this is not meant to disparage any of them.

All of these are great options, but I'd personally rank them Stockton > Payton > Kidd > Westbrook > Thomas.

Stockton is the best player here (including as per impact data). The best argument I see for anyone else is an argument for Isiah on the grounds of a combination of two titles and playoff rising. But it’s not an argument I’d buy.

Payton and Stockton are well above the others in my book, with Westbrook way down the list.

All time

Stockton
Russ
Kidd
Payton
Zeke

Peak
Russ
Kidd
Stockton
Zeke
Payton

They're all overrated, but if I had to rank them.

Westbrook
Kidd

Payton

Stockton

Thomas

One_and_Done wrote:They're all overrated, but if I had to rank them.

Westbrook
Kidd

Payton

Stockton

Thomas

Strangely enough, it's straight chronological order. Who'd have guessed?

penbeast0 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:They're all overrated, but if I had to rank them.

Westbrook
Kidd

Payton

Stockton

Thomas

Strangely enough, it's straight chronological order. Who'd have guessed?

It's also reflective of the amount of MVP love that they got in their own era. So weird that ppl gave Westbrook an MVP, Kidd was a runner-up, and Payton was a serious candidate, yet none of the contemporary voters regarded Zeke or Stockton in that way. Doubtless some kind of era bias.

In terms of peaks I do think Zeke gets a bit underrated by virtue of being at least a co#1 on b2b title teams. To me that is relevant. I don't think circa 88-90 Zeke would have allowed himself to get contained the way Stockton did in the 97-98 finals(you could also add in the 96 wcf). Granted Stockton was older but he was still in his prime. Similar to if Haliburton leads Indy to a title then I'd say he probably peaked higher than most of these guys. Personally I also think Isiah's defense gets underrated. He and Dumars could really apply pressure together when they tried to.

One_and_Done wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:They're all overrated, but if I had to rank them.

Westbrook
Kidd

Payton

Stockton

Thomas

Strangely enough, it's straight chronological order. Who'd have guessed?

It's also reflective of the amount of MVP love that they got in their own era. So weird that ppl gave Westbrook an MVP, Kidd was a runner-up, and Payton was a serious candidate, yet none of the contemporary voters regarded Zeke or Stockton in that way. Doubtless some kind of era bias.

That sort of works, except that Thomas got more MVP-vote love than Stockton did.

lessthanjake wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:
Strangely enough, it's straight chronological order. Who'd have guessed?

It's also reflective of the amount of MVP love that they got in their own era. So weird that ppl gave Westbrook an MVP, Kidd was a runner-up, and Payton was a serious candidate, yet none of the contemporary voters regarded Zeke or Stockton in that way. Doubtless some kind of era bias.

That sort of works, except that Thomas got more MVP-vote love than Stockton did.

Yeh he was more overrated than Stockton. He also has a big longevity gap, and his game would suffer today more than Stockton.

Lol Thomas is quite underrated now.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:Which of these PGs is greater

I voted Stockton.

Ranked list off the top of my head:

1. Stockton
2. Kidd
3. Isiah
4. Payton
5. Westbrook

Doctor MJ wrote:

mdonnelly1989 wrote:Which of these PGs is greater

I voted Stockton.

Ranked list off the top of my head:

1. Stockton
2. Kidd
3. Isiah
4. Payton
5. Westbrook

Rate their careers 1-100
Please.

It would chose between Isiah Thomas or J.kidd

IT - great offensive engine and he's a positive on defense by the scheme the piston was running in the mid-late 80s ( very invested in hustle ). He really great to translate to playoff setting. A decent mid volume mid efficiency scorer ( he get lil better in playoffs compare to regular season ). Able to shoulder much of offensive load in a defensive build team

J.kidd - the best PG defender all time ( could argue best defender in guard position ). Elite floor riser on the defensive end ( make every tema defense get much better when he join the team in his prime )+ very valuable as POA defender. Great playmaker+ faciliter but sub-par scorer. His PS run are great relative to supporting cast in the Nets. His rebound were great additional to his impact .

If we talk Peak4Peak I will take Russell Westbrook - all timer as a seasonal floor on offensive end. High volume low efficiency but his defensive manipulation on the driving or PNR are essential for the Playmaking and shot opportunities for teammates

Doctor MJ wrote:

mdonnelly1989 wrote:Which of these PGs is greater

I voted Stockton.

Ranked list off the top of my head:

1. Stockton
2. Kidd
3. Isiah
4. Payton
5. Westbrook

Quite interesting that you have GP above Westbrook. What is your criteria for that?

Both Payton and Westbrook were in the league ages 22-35 (14 seasons).

In those 14 seasons:

Payton - 17060 min, 8039 ast, 2243 ST, 2714 TO
Westbrook - 17845 min, 8168 ast, 1582 ST, 3971 TO

Do you realize what a huge advantage that is for Payton? Far more steals, far less turnovers, similar assists.

On top of that Payton shot better on both 2s and 3s (2% better eFG%), over 14 seasons Westbrook missed 887 more shots than Payton.

Lastly Payton was the far better defender, far far better. All-defensive 1st team 9 times, Westbrook never sniffed an all-defense team.

I can't imagine why anyone would think Westbrook was a better player than Payton.

kcktiny wrote:Both Payton and Westbrook were in the league ages 22-35 (14 seasons).

In those 14 seasons:

Payton - 17060 min, 8039 ast, 2243 ST, 2714 TO
Westbrook - 17845 min, 8168 ast, 1582 ST, 3971 TO

Do you realize what a huge advantage that is for Payton? Far more steals, far less turnovers, similar assists.

On top of that Payton shot better on both 2s and 3s (2% better eFG%), over 14 seasons Westbrook missed 887 more shots than Payton.

Lastly Payton was the far better defender, far far better. All-defensive 1st team 9 times, Westbrook never sniffed an all-defense team.

I can't imagine why anyone would think Westbrook was a better player than Payton.

That's such a self evidently cherry picked way to compare them. If you want to compare them on stats, do it over the same period based on per100 averages. I don't even need to look it up to know Payton gets killed. Really though you should only use prime years to compare them.

That's such a self evidently cherry picked way to compare them.

Just - dumb.

By position over the past 4+ decades PGs are responsible for more assists, steals, and turnovers than any other position. They are key criteria for a PG.

Westbrook on offense was far more responsible for his team not scoring on team possessions because of missed shots and turnovers than Payton, it's not even close. Plus Payton forced opponents into far more team possessions where they did not score than Westbrook did through steals and better defense.

What are you missing?

If you want to compare them on stats, do it over the same period

Work on your reading comprehension. That's exactly what I did. Same age range, 87% of one player's total minutes played versus 80% of another's.

I don't even need to look it up to know Payton gets killed.

You don't even know who Gary Payton is.

Really though you should only use prime years to compare them.

You compare them however you want. I used as much data that was available, within a similar age range.

You want to cherry pick and use a smaller data set to compare, knock yourself out.

But then you'd have to learn who Gary Payton was.