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Amongst these guys, at their very best and relative to position.

What does "minutes adjusted" mean in this context?

Duncan and KG are close as 1, 2 in PF

Pippen is 1 for SF, Kawhi’s peak could put him at 2

Payton isn’t the best PG (Kidd), but is probably 2

MJ is probably the best SG, and TA is top 5

D Rob is like 3 for C, Ben Wallace top 6

So I’d probably go MJ here. Purely based off gap between next in his position.

Ol Roy wrote:What does "minutes adjusted" mean in this context?

Don't compare them with minutes context just as defenders per minute on the floor

Wow no clear cut winner as I expected !

And, as almost always with your questions, context? During the peak season, during their prime, or over the course of their careers (Rodman and Kawhi fall out of running)? Or even during their best, most locked in game or short stretch (Jordan moves up into contention)?

mdonnelly1989 wrote:

Ol Roy wrote:What does "minutes adjusted" mean in this context?

Don't compare them with minutes context just as defenders per minute on the floor

Has to be Tony Allen then.

The wrong Wallace is on this list. Gerald Wallace is the answer.

penbeast0 wrote:And, as almost always with your questions, context? During the peak season, during their prime, or over the course of their careers (Rodman and Kawhi fall out of running)? Or even during their best, most locked in game or short stretch (Jordan moves up into contention)?

Average defensive prime season

Would i expect my defense to improve more by changing an aveeage guars with tony allen or an average center with tim duncan?

It definitely feels like the latter so duncan it is

In that case, probably Pippen as many of the others were up and down and many centers are defensive specialists where very few wings are (Bruce Bowen types rarer than Ben Wallace types); an awful lot of NBA wings are weak defenders, very few NBA centers are. Pippen is a strong help defender and a strong man defender. Tony Allen is my other top contender, he may be the best minute for minute, just a bit less sure about him being switchable onto bigs.

Which Rodman are we to consider?

SF/PF Rodman from Detroit, or older/bulkier Rodman playing primarily PF and sometimes C defensively?

tsherkin wrote:Which Rodman are we to consider?

SF/PF Rodman from Detroit, or older/bulkier Rodman playing primarily PF and sometimes C defensively?

Uh... probably the one that won b2b DPOYs?

SHAQ32 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Which Rodman are we to consider?

SF/PF Rodman from Detroit, or older/bulkier Rodman playing primarily PF and sometimes C defensively?

Uh... probably the one that won b2b DPOYs?

Both were excellent defenders, man. The fact that Rodman, who was still All-Defensive 1st Team in 1996, didn't win a DPOY once he was competing with Robinson, Hakeem and Mutombo isn't really salient to this conversation. They were two distinct styles of defense from him, perimeter versus post defense.

falcolombardi wrote:Would i expect my defense to improve more by changing an aveeage guars with tony allen or an average center with tim duncan?

It definitely feels like the latter so duncan it is

This was my reasoning as well.

One could reasonably prefer one of the other bigs over Duncan, but whichever big you like most is the answer for my understanding of the question.

There's simply a wider impact curve possible for bigs. At least for most of NBA history.

tsherkin wrote:

SHAQ32 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:Which Rodman are we to consider?

SF/PF Rodman from Detroit, or older/bulkier Rodman playing primarily PF and sometimes C defensively?

Uh... probably the one that won b2b DPOYs?

The fact that Rodman, who was still All-Defensive 1st Team in 1996, didn't win a DPOY once he was competing with Robinson, Hakeem and Mutombo isn't really salient to this conversation.

Was Robinson and Hakeem not in the league in 1991?

SHAQ32 wrote:Was Robinson and Hakeem not in the league in 1991?

Sure. And they were on the top 2 defenses in the league.

But the Pistons were coming off repeat titles, so as far as reputation, Rodman had a bit of a lead (especially as reigning DPOY from 1990).

Honestly, I think he probably didn't deserve the 91 DPOY, but it is what it is. And then in 91-92, Mutombo hits the league, and now competition for the DPOY starts to change. Also, pre-Chicago, Rodman had a bit of a down stretch where he was chasing rebounds instead of balling out on D while he was with the Spurs before getting some sense knocked back into him with Chicago, even as his health started to go.

So again I say, which version of Rodman are we discussing? Because Rodman was a pretty excellent defender as a PF for the Bulls, particularly in 96. He was an excellent SF defender for Detroit. I'd argue he stands out more as a PF because there were less staggering PF defenders than there were wing defenders.

Goalposts: Moved

SHAQ32 wrote:Goalposts: Moved

Not really?

The way this exchange worked, you said "probably the one who won b3b DPOYs?"

Sure, that makes some sense. It's ostensibly the peak of his defensive recognition. Then I noted that Olajuwon and Robinson and Mutombo got going and things started to change. And yes, both Hakeem and D-Rob were in the league in 91 (Robinson in his 2nd season), though neither won a DPOY until 92 (Robinson), 93 and 94 (Olajuwon) and 95 (Mutombo).

Rodman was 2nd in the league in the 92 DPOY vote. He was 4th in 93 but he only started 55 games and only played 62. And then he went to San Antonio and still ended up in the vote, but was starting less and considerably less healthy.

The original reason I asked the question was that this topic is literally about efficacy relative to position. So are we discussing the 3 or the 4, because it changes his competition. And centers are somewhat irrelevant to that discussion.

You said

The fact that Rodman, who was still All-Defensive 1st Team in 1996, didn't win a DPOY once he was competing with Robinson, Hakeem and Mutombo isn't really salient to this conversation.

as if Rodman wasn't already competing with Robinson and Hakeem in '90 and '91, while winning DPOY over both (Hakeem finished 2nd in '90 and Robinson finished 2nd in '91). I just clarified you and moved on. That's it. Have a nice day.