Rank these individual title runs of the 2020s

[wafflzgod]

rank these individual playoff runs that ended in titles in the 2020s. based on how good they were in the playoffs alone

'20 LeBron
'20 AD
'21 Giannis
'22 Steph
'23 Jokic
'24 Tatum
'25 Shai

[wafflzgod]

Tatum pretty obviously the worst run here. I'd say Shai is -- though not as obvious -- probably the 2nd worst run of these choices too

[lessthanjake]

rank these individual playoff runs that ended in titles in the 2020s. based on how good they were in the playoffs alone

'20 LeBron
'20 AD
'21 Giannis
'22 Steph
'23 Jokic
'24 Tatum
'25 Shai

2023 Jokic
2021 Giannis
2022 Steph
2020 LeBron
2020 AD
2025 Shai
2024 Tatum

This seems pretty straightforward to me. I don’t feel strongly about 2022 Steph > 2020 LeBron. Steph wasn’t particularly impressive in the Memphis series. But the combination of Steph facing better opponents, not having a star teammate playing out of his mind (Anthony Davis), and really saving his team in the Finals is what puts Steph above for me. Conversely, AD could potentially be put above LeBron, on the basis of playing out of his mind offensively and being a better defender, but I don’t think I quite buy it.

[Cavsfansince84]

2023 Jokic
2021 Giannis
2022 Steph
2020 LeBron
2020 AD
2025 Shai
2024 Tatum

This seems pretty straightforward to me. I don’t feel strongly about 2022 Steph > 2020 LeBron. Steph wasn’t particularly impressive in the Memphis series. But the combination of Steph facing better opponents, not having a star teammate playing out of his mind (Anthony Davis), and really saving his team in the Finals is what puts Steph above for me. Conversely, AD could potentially be put above LeBron, on the basis of playing out of his mind offensively and being a better defender, but I don’t think I quite buy it.

I don't really see any argument at all for Steph over LeBron unless its based on the 2020 playoffs being spreads out over like 6 months. You left out that Ja got injured in the Memphis series and how good 1-2 of Klay, Wiggins or Poole were in every series. Steph was not having to carry the offense that much until the finals when he went off. So I don't see it. LeBron was better on both sides of the ball over the course of his playoff run by a fair-large margin when you add in rebounding.

[lessthanjake]

2023 Jokic
2021 Giannis
2022 Steph
2020 LeBron
2020 AD
2025 Shai
2024 Tatum

This seems pretty straightforward to me. I don’t feel strongly about 2022 Steph > 2020 LeBron. Steph wasn’t particularly impressive in the Memphis series. But the combination of Steph facing better opponents, not having a star teammate playing out of his mind (Anthony Davis), and really saving his team in the Finals is what puts Steph above for me. Conversely, AD could potentially be put above LeBron, on the basis of playing out of his mind offensively and being a better defender, but I don’t think I quite buy it.

I don't really see any argument at all for Steph over LeBron unless its based on the 2020 playoffs being spreads out over like 6 months. You left out that Ja got injured in the Memphis series and how good 1-2 of Klay, Wiggins or Poole were in every series. Steph was not having to carry the offense that much until the finals when he went off. So I don't see it. LeBron was better on both sides of the ball over the course of his playoff run by a fair-large margin when you add in rebounding.

I think it’d be totally reasonable to think LeBron played better on average in the 2020 playoffs than Steph did in the 2022 playoffs. In fact, I’d tend to agree. But LeBron also had a teammate playing out of his mind (which makes things a lot easier) and didn’t really face any particularly good team. Steph did face a particularly good team, and did so with a weaker roster (and no, Klay, Wiggins, and Poole played in no way comparably to AD), and he pulled out some real heroics to get his team the win. When ranking a “title run,” I think that heroics like that matter—they’re a big part of the story. It’s similar to why I have Giannis so high up—his greatness in a tough Finals (including in very key moments) weighs heavily, and is enough to outweigh the fact that he missed time in the conference finals, struggled with his shot in the first round, etc. Of course, 2023 Jokic is in a similar boat to 2020 LeBron in having a relatively easy run where he didn’t face any particularly good team, but I think 2023 Jokic was just so good that he goes above Giannis and Steph, whereas 2020 LeBron doesn’t quite get there for me. I wouldn’t say Giannis, Steph, and LeBron are far off from each other though.

For what it’s worth, Steph’s playoff EPM was actually slightly higher than LeBron’s (+6.9 for Steph vs. +6.8 for LeBron). And one other thing I would note on Steph is that his on-court rORTG in the 2022 playoffs was substantially higher than LeBron’s in 2020 (+8.36 for Steph vs. +6.20 for LeBron). It was impressive from both, since they both played some defensive lineups, but I think this data weighs significantly in Steph’s favor when we realize how well AD was playing offensively in the 2020 playoffs. It suggests Steph was better offensively. And while we may say there was a defensive gap going the other direction, it was probably Steph’s best year defensively, so it’s not clear that that gap makes up for it. Indeed, we see that bear out in the playoff EPM data.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think it’d be totally reasonable to think LeBron played better on average in the 2020 playoffs than Steph did in the 2022 playoffs. In fact, I’d tend to agree. But LeBron also had a teammate playing out of his mind (which makes things a lot easier) and didn’t really face any particularly good team. Steph did face a particularly good team, and did so with a weaker roster (and no, Klay, Wiggins, and Poole played in no way comparably to AD), and he pulled out some real heroics to get his team the win. When ranking a “title run,” I think that heroics like that matter—they’re a big part of the story. It’s similar to why I have Giannis so high up—his greatness in a tough Finals (including in very key moments) weighs heavily, and is enough to outweigh the fact that he missed time in the conference finals, struggled with his shot in the first round, etc. Of course, 2023 Jokic is in a similar boat to 2020 LeBron in having a relatively easy run where he didn’t face any particularly good team, but I think 2023 Jokic was just so good that he goes above Giannis and Steph, whereas 2020 LeBron doesn’t quite get there for me. I wouldn’t say Giannis, Steph, and LeBron are far off from each other though.

I don't think there's much difference in AD getting hot or having 2-3 teammates getting hot every series. If its just the finals I'd say Steph has an argument but even then LeBron was probably as good or better. If its the whole playoff run I don't see any argument for Steph. Those teams GS played weren't that good and Denver was missing Murray and Memphis lost Morant.

[lessthanjake]

I think it’d be totally reasonable to think LeBron played better on average in the 2020 playoffs than Steph did in the 2022 playoffs. In fact, I’d tend to agree. But LeBron also had a teammate playing out of his mind (which makes things a lot easier) and didn’t really face any particularly good team. Steph did face a particularly good team, and did so with a weaker roster (and no, Klay, Wiggins, and Poole played in no way comparably to AD), and he pulled out some real heroics to get his team the win. When ranking a “title run,” I think that heroics like that matter—they’re a big part of the story. It’s similar to why I have Giannis so high up—his greatness in a tough Finals (including in very key moments) weighs heavily, and is enough to outweigh the fact that he missed time in the conference finals, struggled with his shot in the first round, etc. Of course, 2023 Jokic is in a similar boat to 2020 LeBron in having a relatively easy run where he didn’t face any particularly good team, but I think 2023 Jokic was just so good that he goes above Giannis and Steph, whereas 2020 LeBron doesn’t quite get there for me. I wouldn’t say Giannis, Steph, and LeBron are far off from each other though.

I don't think there's much difference in AD getting hot or having 2-3 teammates getting hot every series. If its just the finals I'd say Steph has an argument but even then LeBron was probably as good or better. If its the whole playoff run I don't see any argument for Steph. Those teams GS played weren't that good and Denver was missing Murray and Memphis lost Morant.

Disagree on the “2-3 teammates getting hot every series” thing, particularly when I just disagree that that even happened in the first instance in 2022. For instance, you mentioned Klay, but he wasn’t even good at all overall in the playoffs. Poole became pretty unplayable as the playoffs went on. Meanwhile, Wiggins was very good for Wiggins, but that’s on a real curve, and we’re ultimately talking about a guy who had a +0.8 playoff BPM and +2.8 playoff EPM that year. For reference, Wiggins’s playoff EPM was +2.8, Poole’s was +0.8, and Klay’s was -1.7. Anthony Davis’s playoff EPM in 2020 was +7.3. These are not remotely comparable. The positive impact of AD’s 2020 playoff run definitely dwarfs the impact of Wiggins/Poole/Klay combined. It’s not even close.

Anyways, see below that I edited into my prior post:

For what it’s worth, Steph’s playoff EPM was actually slightly higher than LeBron’s (+6.9 for Steph vs. +6.8 for LeBron). And one other thing I would note on Steph is that his on-court rORTG in the 2022 playoffs was substantially higher than LeBron’s in 2020 (+8.36 for Steph vs. +6.20 for LeBron). It was impressive from both, since they both played some defensive lineups, but I think this data weighs significantly in Steph’s favor when we realize how well AD was playing offensively in the 2020 playoffs. It suggests Steph was better offensively. And while we may say there was a defensive gap going the other direction, it was probably Steph’s best year defensively, so it’s not clear that that gap makes up for it. Indeed, we see that bear out in the playoff EPM data.

[Cavsfansince84]

Disagree on the “2-3 teammates getting hot every series” thing, particularly when I just disagree that that even happened in the first instance in 2022. For instance, you mentioned Klay, but he wasn’t even good at all overall in the playoffs. Poole became pretty unplayable as the playoffs went on. Meanwhile, Wiggins was very good for Wiggins, but that’s on a real curve, and we’re ultimately talking about a guy who had a +0.8 playoff BPM and +2.8 playoff EPM that year. For reference, Wiggins’s playoff EPM was +2.8, Poole’s was +0.8, and Klay’s was -1.7. Anthony Davis’s playoff EPM in 2020 was +7.3. These are not remotely comparable. The positive impact of AD’s 2020 playoff run definitely dwarfs the impact of Wiggins/Poole/Klay combined. It’s not even close.

Pretty much 2 of those guys every series more than held up their share of the scoring on good to great efficiency. You aren't looking at things holistically by using epm because I specifically made the point about offense for those 3 guys. On defense, GS had Draymond, GP2 and others who also helped them to the #1 overall def in the rs. I think I am being perfectly fair and reasonable in what I am saying here. In the rs they were #1 in Drtg and #17 in Ortg.

In rd 1 Klay goes off for 22.6ppg on 64.5% ts
Poole 21.0 on 71.5% ts
In rd 2 Poole 17.5ppg on 57.5%
wcf
Poole 16.4 on 79% ts
Klay 18.6 on 59%

In the finals Poole gives 13.4 on 59% but more importantly Tatum and Brown were held to 54% and 48%.

Steph had a great finals but my point is that it was really a team effort. They had great role players on both sides during that run.

[xb3at band1tx]

AD is a tough one cause of the bubble (its gonna be polarizing). But, that man looked like Kevin Garnett fused with Durant's shooting. I personally think its up there with Jokic and Giannis for pure output.

[lessthanjake]

Disagree on the “2-3 teammates getting hot every series” thing, particularly when I just disagree that that even happened in the first instance in 2022. For instance, you mentioned Klay, but he wasn’t even good at all overall in the playoffs. Poole became pretty unplayable as the playoffs went on. Meanwhile, Wiggins was very good for Wiggins, but that’s on a real curve, and we’re ultimately talking about a guy who had a +0.8 playoff BPM and +2.8 playoff EPM that year. For reference, Wiggins’s playoff EPM was +2.8, Poole’s was +0.8, and Klay’s was -1.7. Anthony Davis’s playoff EPM in 2020 was +7.3. These are not remotely comparable. The positive impact of AD’s 2020 playoff run definitely dwarfs the impact of Wiggins/Poole/Klay combined. It’s not even close.

Pretty much 2 of those guys every series more than held up their share of the scoring on good to great efficiency. You aren't looking at things holistically by using epm because I specifically made the point about offense for those 3 guys. On defense, GS had Draymond, GP2 and others who also helped them to the #1 overall def in the rs. I think I am being perfectly fair and reasonable in what I am saying here. In the rs they were #1 in Drtg and #17 in Ortg.

In rd 1 Klay goes off for 22.6ppg on 64.5% ts
Poole 21.0 on 71.5% ts
In rd 2 Poole 17.5ppg on 57.5%
wcf
Poole 16.4 on 79% ts
Klay 18.6 on 59%

In the finals Poole gives 13.4 on 59% but more importantly Tatum and Brown were held to 54% and 48%.

Steph had a great finals but my point is that it was really a team effort. They had great role players on both sides during that run.

I think it’s notable that you can’t really find anyone to mention in the Finals. It’s also telling that you only have one person to mention for the second round. And finally, it’s also notable that you have to mention Klay putting up 18.6 on 59% TS% in the WCF, which is pretty obviously nothing special in this era (it was a +3 rTS%, which is…pretty good, but definitely not anything to write home about, particularly for a guy who doesn’t create his own shot). I think all that kind of demonstrates my point that what you’d said about having 2-3 going off every series wasn’t right.

If you want to object to EPM for this discussion on the basis that you’re talking about offense specifically, then we can look at just O-EPM. The playoff O-EPM’s for Wiggins, Poole, and Klay were: +1.2, +1.6, and +0.6. The playoff O-EPM for Anthony Davis in 2020 was +4.6. Again, I’m pretty comfortable with the conclusion that Anthony Davis provided more offensive impact than those guys combined.

To the extent you make the general point that players on the 2022 Warriors besides Steph did play well, then I agree. It’s not possible to win a title without that being the case. But the Warriors supporting cast really didn’t have anything akin to 2020 Anthony Davis, and they also had a harder road to the title (primarily because the 2022 Celtics are easily the best team either of these two had to play in the playoffs). The degree of difficulty here for Steph was substantially higher, and he got them the title, providing some real heroics in the Finals (i.e. against that most difficult opponent either of these two had to play). To me, that amply justifies putting him ahead of 2020 LeBron. But I can see an argument against him on the basis that he played fewer minutes in the first round and didn’t have a great second round.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think it’s notable that you can’t really find anyone to mention in the Finals. It’s also telling that you only have one person to mention for the second round. And finally, it’s also notable that you have to mention Klay putting up 18.6 on 59% TS% in the WCF, which is pretty obviously nothing special in this era (it was a +3 rTS%, which is…pretty good, but definitely not anything to write home about, particularly for a guy who doesn’t create his own shot). I think all that kind of demonstrates my point that what you’d said about having 2-3 going off every series wasn’t right.

If you want to object to EPM for this discussion on the basis that you’re talking about offense specifically, then we can look at just O-EPM. The playoff O-EPM’s for Wiggins, Poole, and Klay were: +1.2, +1.6, and +0.6. The playoff O-EPM for Anthony Davis in 2020 was +4.6. Again, I’m pretty comfortable with the conclusion that Anthony Davis provided more offensive impact than those guys combined.

To the extent you make the general point that players on the 2022 Warriors besides Steph did play well, then I agree. It’s not possible to win a title without that being the case. But the Warriors supporting cast really didn’t have anything akin to 2020 Anthony Davis, and they also had a harder road to the title (primarily because the 2022 Celtics are easily the best team either of these two had to play in the playoffs). The degree of difficulty here for Steph was substantially higher, and he got them the title, providing some real heroics in the Finals (i.e. against that most difficult opponent either of these two had to play). To me, that amply justifies putting him ahead of 2020 LeBron. But I can see an argument against him on the basis that he played fewer minutes in the first round and didn’t have a great second round.

Its not that notable. I could easily have mentioned Poole putting in 13ppg on 59% ts. Also, in the playoffs most players efficiency goes down. Anyone putting up decent ppg on 57%+ts is doing their job for sure imo. Often role players can shoot terribly in big series. I just gave a quick run down on some of those series for them. Anyhow, that's enough from me on this.

[jalengreen]

In the other very similar thread I gave these rankings:

0. 2023 Jokic
1. 2020 LeBron
2. 2021 Giannis
3. 2019 Kawhi
4. 2025 Shai
5. 2022 Curry
6. 2020 Davis
7. 2024 Tatum

If we're talking individual title runs only, I would probably re-order the ones ahead of Tatum to be 2020 Davis > 2022 Curry > 2025 Shai. Bubble AD was ridiculous and while I wouldn't want him leading a team over 2022 Curry, for pure impact I actually do think the 2020 Lakers had two players who were more impactful in their roles that run than anybody on the 2022 Warriors. Shai as a whole is clearly better than both 2020 Davis and 2022 Curry to me, but playoff run specifically probably not as impressive (though I could definitely hear cases for this being unfair to him, idk).

Giannis more impactful on average than LeBron in title run alone but enough to offset him missing 2.5 games? I'll be safe and lean towards the healthy guy

So

1. 2023 Jokic
2. 2020 LeBron
3. 2021 Giannis
4. 2020 Davis
5. 2022 Curry
6. 2025 Shai
7. 2024 Tatum

[One_and_Done]

Lebron

Jokic/Giannis/Curry

AD/SGA
Tatum

[TheGOATRises007]

Jokic
Giannis(finals performance tilts him over LeBron)
LeBron
AD
Curry
Shai
Tatum

[LukaTheGOAT]

Polar bear spotted in Arlington, Texas

[emn_010]

2023 jokic
2020 bron
2021 giannis
2022 curry
2025 shai
2020 ad
2024 tatum