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In terms of leadership, how many players in NBA history have a case over Magic Johnson?

Bill Russell and that's it.

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Duncan and Russell seem to get a lot of praise.

MJ, Duncan, and Russell

I don't remember Duncan pouting in the locker room to reporters and getting his coach fired (not that he was wrong to want him fired).

I think maybe you're confusing leadership with charisma. Magic, like Barkley, oozed charisma. I wouldn't have called him the greatest role model or leader though. Like, better than Jordan sure, but there have been a number of better leaders than the tempermental Johnson.

According to the book Showtime, which the show Winning Time was based on, Magic used to take all the players to the club upstairs immediately after the game and do a tonne of blow. This was in an era when Len Bias OD'd, and the league handed down massive suspensions for recreational drug use. Was that leadership?

There are too many stories of Magic's bad leadership for me to buy the idea that he was one of the greatest leaders.

Maybe his rival?

One_and_Done wrote:I don't remember Duncan pouting in the locker room to reporters and getting his coach fired (not that he was wrong to want him fired).

I think maybe you're confusing leadership with charisma. Magic, like Barkley, oozed charisma. I wouldn't have called him the greatest role model or leader though. Like, better than Jordan sure, but there have been a number of better leaders than the tempermental Johnson.

According to the book Showtime, which the show Winning Time was based on, Magic used to take all the players to the club upstairs immediately after the game and do a tonne of blow. This was in an era when Len Bias OD'd, and the league handed down massive suspensions for recreational drug use. Was that leadership?

There are too many stories of Magic's bad leadership for me to buy the idea that he was one of the greatest leaders.

So what players do you rank above Magic as a leader then?

Matt15 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:I don't remember Duncan pouting in the locker room to reporters and getting his coach fired (not that he was wrong to want him fired).

I think maybe you're confusing leadership with charisma. Magic, like Barkley, oozed charisma. I wouldn't have called him the greatest role model or leader though. Like, better than Jordan sure, but there have been a number of better leaders than the tempermental Johnson.

According to the book Showtime, which the show Winning Time was based on, Magic used to take all the players to the club upstairs immediately after the game and do a tonne of blow. This was in an era when Len Bias OD'd, and the league handed down massive suspensions for recreational drug use. Was that leadership?

There are too many stories of Magic's bad leadership for me to buy the idea that he was one of the greatest leaders.

So what players do you rank above Magic as a leader then?

It's tough for us to know, because so much of leadership happens behind the scenes. Duncan strikes me as a strong choice though. Bird too. Probably there are alot of guys. Chris Paul. Jason Kidd maybe? Dirk. Havlicek. Nash. That's a great place to start. D.Rob too if you don't mind being preached at. Dr J strikes me as a great choice too.

I know it's very hard to quantify, but it would require a lot of bad faith to exclude Bill Russell from the conversation.

70sFan wrote:I know it's very hard to quantify, but it would require a lot of bad faith to exclude Bill Russell from the conversation.

I'd say being a 'leader' back then probably required a very different set of skills that would often have made for poor leadership elsewhere.

I don't know what was going on in the locker room, but his behaviour as the Kings coach post-career is hard to square with him being some kind of great leader

One_and_Done wrote:I'd say being a 'leader' back then probably required a very different set of skills that would often have made for poor leadership elsewhere.

Elaborate.

TroubleS0me wrote:MJ, Duncan, and Russell

Jordan's leadership style worked for the Bulls but in a vacuum, it certainly wouldn't have worked with guys like Kareem or any number of NBA players. Similarly, Russell's on court leadership seems far more key than his locker room and practice leadership though on court counts too. I notice we are only talking superstars, which to some degree makes sense since the other players look up to them naturally because of their status, but only to a degree.

Probably a lot of pass first PGs who sacrificed their own numbers to make their teammates look better would be considered great leaders; guys like Lenny Wilkins, Larry Brown (ABA), Mark Jackson, Scott Skiles, etc. There's a reason more NBA coaches have been former point guards (I believe without having done the research) than any other position.

Magic is tougher because not only was he a pass first PG but one that everyone who played with him raves about how much fun he made basketball. So it's playmaker leadership skills plus something else. Stockton maybe, because his "it's just a broken nose, I'm not taking a game off" type ironman style adds an extra bonus. Frazier for putting in so much effort on the defensive end while maintaining offensive primacy plus style points for thriving as a black icon in a very difficult era for racism. Those are the two that come to mind first.

Kyle Lowry.
One of the best and most underrated leader ever. Leadership isn't determine by how good or ALL TIME ( skill / attribute ) the player is but on how they deal with teammates in the locker room / in the game and bring great energy to his team.

Also Bill Russell might be the easiest choice as best leader all time. With all the documentary about him being a positive to his teammates

penbeast0 wrote:

TroubleS0me wrote:MJ, Duncan, and Russell

Jordan's leadership style worked for the Bulls but in a vacuum, it certainly wouldn't have worked with guys like Kareem or any number of NBA players.

I suspect Isiah Thomas may fall into a similar category. His leadership worked magnificently with those Piston teams (having a true "player's coach" in Chuck Daly helped, too); but I suspect it could have backfired in other settings.

penbeast0 wrote:Similarly, Russell's on court leadership seems far more key than his locker room and practice leadership though on court counts too.

I suppose it depends how you look at it. From what I've read, his practice and off-season work ethic was admirable.
As far as what he was 'vocal' about, or dramas he was drawn into......it must be acknowledged he lived in a different [more difficult] time to be a black man, and there were a lot of other related things going on in his life (and he wasn't always free of those things on the court; e.g. being called "coon" or similar, even on his home court, etc).
He was also a very proud man, and as such could be drawn into personal rivalries (see: Wilt). Such as when Wilt got the then-historic $100,000 for one year salary, Russell famously demanded $100,001. Compare that to Duncan, who appeared so lacking in ego that he [repeatedly] took voluntary pay-cuts so the Spurs had the cap space to sign various complimentary players (always worth bringing up when people talk about how "lucky" he was in teammates: sometimes you make your own luck). But I digress....

One last comment on Russell as a leader:
The pride and elation he took in winning.....I wonder if that wasn't a little contagious.

penbeast0 wrote: I notice we are only talking superstars, which to some degree makes sense since the other players look up to them naturally because of their status, but only to a degree.

THat's a good point. I've repeatedly read that Bill Cartwright was looked to as a locker-room and culture leader on those Bulls teams.
I think Udonis Haslem had somewhat a similar reputation (that's why they kept his roster spot alive long after his usefulness as a player had eroded, isn't it?).
Maybe Vince Carter late in his career???

penbeast0 wrote:Magic is tougher because not only was he a pass first PG but one that everyone who played with him raves about how much fun he made basketball. So it's playmaker leadership skills plus something else. Stockton maybe, because his "it's just a broken nose, I'm not taking a game off" type ironman style adds an extra bonus. Frazier for putting in so much effort on the defensive end while maintaining offensive primacy plus style points for thriving as a black icon in a very difficult era for racism. Those are the two that come to mind first.

Steve Nash seemed like a good culture leader in Phoenix.

Regarding Magic and "fun", I'm going to make a mention of Steph Curry. I wasn't on board the Curry-train for a long time (partly because the Warriors being the champs just felt so inevitable, that some of those seasons were a pinch boring). But as time went by, he's won me over, and in large it's because of the joy he plays with. It's kind of infectious.
He also seems to take genuine joy in the successes of his teammates. And his work ethic is fantastic, too. I think he's HUGE part of the culture that franchise has enjoyed for roughly a decade.
He at least deserves a mention on a list of good team leaders; surprising I'm the first to mention him here at like post #15 or whatever.

I was thinking about Russell frequently sitting in the stands reading a newspaper while the team practiced. Red didn't want to risk injuries once Russell was in game shape so he allowed/encouraged it; but in another setting that might have caused problems. I rank Russell #1 over LeBron, Kareem, and Jordan so I'm a huge stan but while his teammates loved and respected him, I thought it deserved a mention. His results are otherworldly though.

Curry and Doc are more great choices for guys that just seem to play with joy and are beloved by teammates. Nash in Phoenix, sure; Nash in Dallas and in his swan song in LA, not so much so not in same league with the top guys in this particular category.

I think leadership is pretty hard to nail down as a fan not only because its something that happens a lot outside of games but also it gets conflated into a lot of things like on court generalship(much easier to do as a pg), passion(why everyone at GS will call Dray the leader of the team despite all his crazy behavior) and whatever else you want to think of. Magic gets rated highly in part because of how likeable he seems plus making it to 9 finals and 5 rings also speaks for itself. I don't think there is any clear answer other than I rate Russell #1. His track record and everything that I've learned about him over the years leads me to think he had the best intangibles and leadership qualities in nba/bb history.

Dr J

When Julius Erving walked into a room with HoF players everyone stood up and paid reverence. Rick Barry was talking about his favorite subject (himself) shut up mid-sentence stopped and turned around to face Julius. I should have been in awe of meeting my favorite player but I was more in awe of how NBA players showed respect to him. The whole room stopped much like for a POTUS. The only other athletes I can think of that could own a room of that magnitude are Gretzky and Staubach (maybe Brady today).

There were non-Nets players in the ABA who played harder because they didnt want to let DrJ down and they were never his teammate.

The leader was Kareem.

In any order:

Great case:
1. Russell
2. Kareem
3. Jordan

Good case:
1. Bird
2. Lebron

Weak case:
1. Duncan
2. Shaq

No case:
1. Wilt
2. Kobe
3. Olajuwon
4. Curry
5. Oscar
6. West
7. Erving
8. Dirk
9. Jokic

Hair Jordan wrote:In any order:

Great case:
1. Russell
2. Kareem
3. Jordan

Good case:
1. Bird
2. Lebron

Weak case:
1. Duncan
2. Shaq

No case:
1. Wilt
2. Kobe
3. Olajuwon
4. Curry
5. Oscar
6. West
7. Erving
8. Dirk
9. Jokic

Sorry. I misread the “leadership” part but I’ll leave my list up. However, it’s just a list of players who have a case over Magic in terms of a higher ranking.