Appreciating Some Older Players

[tsherkin]

Okay.

This one's for those of us who don't like to take potshots at literally every older player ever. This thread is for reminiscing or appreciating guys who played a while ago. Maybe you grew up watching them, maybe you came to them later. Maybe you have come to appreciate their place in league history, or what they did for the league.

So let's talk about some old guys today.

I'll throw one out to start.

Walt Bellamy.

I never hear his name. Probably because he had a fast start, playing bonkers at Indiana and then being invited to dominate on the Olympic team, before moving onto the NBA with a ROY and a bunch of AS teams before fading out. Still played over 1,000 games. Was a pretty good rebounder, though not super wild given that he mostly played in the 60s. Hit the league as a 31.6 ppg (3rd in the league), 19.0 rpg player, led the league in FG% ahead of Wilt. Only Wilt made more FGs as a rookie, and only Wilt and Russell posted higher rookie rebounding averages. On his career, he was the 2nd guy in league history (after Wilt) to accrue 20,000 points and 14,000 rebounds.

Questions of motivation haunted him, but he was a talented dude. Was an All-State football receiver. I've seen it posted he was 6'10.5" without shoes, and that he was 260+ pounds (bunch of people call him 270). Good wingspan. Solidly built regardless, with good mobility (pretty good end-to-end speed, good lateral mobility from what I saw). Pretty springy; didn't use it all the time, but in his youth, he has some notable ups and could jump from pretty far out and dunk or get a close lay-in kind of thing. Good shot blocker. Could be a good post defender when he wanted; certainly gave fits to Kareem in the footage I have seen, bumping him, denying position, etc. Had a nice right-elbow jumper, baseline shot on either side, fade to the baseline on the right side. I've seen him hitting jumpers that are like 18, 20 feet from the basket on the baseline, mostly on the right. Couldn't tell you how reliable that was, but he took the shot at times. Given his FT%, I'm sure his range was a little dicey at best, kinda like Giannis this year. But he was a consistently high-FG% guy, if only from the dunks and the tip-ins and so forth, so I don't know. Someone with more knowledge, like penbeast0, or with tracking like Djoker or 70sFan, would have to confirm.

Lots of movement without the ball. Lots of classic shots with a foot on the edge of the key. Jumpers, as discussed. He seemed to be semi-capable with a face-up drive, and he sometimes ended up in a pull-up into a pass for a quick bucket from one of his teammates. Wasn't a super prolific passer, but he clearly had eyes for hi-los and shuffle passes. But he also had that huge reach, so he could drive and just reach forward for the finish. Definitely fast enough to challenge the big boys going to the basket, and he had some rudimentary like right to left crossovers and stuff. Simple things, but effective enough.

Fun stuff. Didn't age too well and his dominance was done after his fifth season, but he was an interesting player who was quite good for a time.

[B-Mitch 30]

I always liked Dale Ellis, guy was the best three-point shooter in NBA history before Reggie and Ray Allen emerged, and he was very durable despite dealing with substance abuse and a really bad DUI accident. Wish he could have played with better contenders during his career.

[tsherkin]

I always liked Dale Ellis, guy was the best three-point shooter in NBA history before Reggie and Ray Allen emerged, and he was very durable despite dealing with substance abuse and a really bad DUI accident. Wish he could have played with better contenders during his career.

Dale Ellis was awesome.

Had a couple big scoring seasons for the Sonics in the late 80s, made an AS team, one appearance on the All-NBA 3rd team. Was a 3.2 3PA/g player (on 40.2% shooting) BEFORE the pulled-in line... and once hilariously led the league in 3PA/g with 2.4, back in 1986. Smashed it for Denver after they pulled in the line, then led the league in 3P% the year after they pushed it back out in 98, shooting 46.4% on 3.5 3PA/g. Was in the 6MOY race that year, back with the Sonics.


Big shame he wasn't on the 96 team for Seattle; I think that might have made a large difference. They'd traded him for Ricky Pierce back in 91. Then they traded back for him in 97 (early October ahead of the 97-98 season) for Greg Graham, Steve Scheffler, and the 2nd rounders which turned into Ryan Bowen and Francisco Elson. Then they hilariously traded him away again in the deal which acquired Horace Grant for them. Ricky Pierce played like 2.5 seasons for them... and then they traded him for Byron Houston and Sarunas Marciulionis, the latter of whom played a limp, low-volume 66-game season for them.

So...

[FrodoBaggins]

Alvan Adams had a nice offensive skill set for an undersized C/PF. I haven't watched enough of him to make comparisons, but he seems like Cowens without the relentless rebounding. And I've seen Cowens offensively compared to KG before.

[eminence]

Dale Ellis was legit. Strong argument as the best player on a 2nd round team that put out Hakeem/Thorpe/Sleepy in '89.

[tsherkin]

Alvan Adams had a nice offensive skill set for an undersized C/PF. I haven't watched enough of him to make comparisons, but he seems like Cowens without the relentless rebounding. And I've seen Cowens offensively compared to KG before.

Adams was a really interesting passer in his day, an early example of a center acting as a hub. We'd obviously seen some of that from Wilt, and even a bit from Russell, and of course Kareem was quite an adept passer. We'd seen Bill Walton. but Alvan was quite good as well. Interesting that he never made another ASG after his rookie year, but he was quite fun to watch.

[Elpolo_14]

I think Bob Lanier Should have more Love if we are talking about the old Days. He was Elite for the team and was Interesting to watch ( even tho the footage is lacking )

[tsherkin]

I think Bob Lanier Should have more Love if we are talking about the old Days. He was Elite for the team and was Interesting to watch ( even tho the footage is lacking )

20/10/3 guy on his career, career 109 TS+ dude. Almost 960 GP despite having some knee issues. Gave Kareem hella problems, enough to be immortalized by mention in film. Pretty good shot blocker in his youth.

Dude was good, for sure.

[70sFan]

A few worth remembering:

Larry Costello
Paul Westphal
Cliff Hagan
Dan Roundfield
Zelmo Beaty

[tsherkin]

A few worth remembering:

Larry Costello
Paul Westphal
Cliff Hagan
Dan Roundfield
Zelmo Beaty

School us, 70sFan!

[70sFan]

A few worth remembering:

Larry Costello
Paul Westphal
Cliff Hagan
Dan Roundfield
Zelmo Beaty

School us, 70sFan!

I hope I will make a few longer posts about these guys pretty soon!

[tsherkin]

A few worth remembering:

Larry Costello
Paul Westphal
Cliff Hagan
Dan Roundfield
Zelmo Beaty

School us, 70sFan!

I hope I will make a few longer posts about these guys pretty soon!

Looking forward to it.

[One_and_Done]

Dale Ellis is a good one. He'd be a better player today if anything. Xavier McDaniel is another historically underrated player.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Alvan Adams had a nice offensive skill set for an undersized C/PF. I haven't watched enough of him to make comparisons, but he seems like Cowens without the relentless rebounding. And I've seen Cowens offensively compared to KG before.

Has to be one of the only players (if not the only) whose one All Star appearance was in his rookie season

[GeorgeMarcus]

I feel like Unseld gets a bit overlooked

[Dr Positivity]

I used to assume Richie Guerin had good stats bad team type of flaws based on the Knicks track record being horrible, but after reading more, his intangibles sound like a winning guy. He played defense, he was physical and played super hard, he was serious no nonsense type of guy, which seems like it's why he became player coach on the Hawks. I think he just got boned be being on a crud team and possibly some teammates like Sears or Naulls must not have been impactful or the mix not being right.

[penbeast0]

I miss the dive and dish point guards I grew up with. Kevin Porter was my favorite Bullet for awhile, Johnny Moore, Nate Archibald, just raw speed and a willingness to pass when their forays into lane the created openings.

Other favorite Bullets: Wes of course, Gus Johnson, Phil Chenier, Mitch Kupchak, Truck Robinson, Jeff Ruland and Rick Mahorn, Robert Pack, I know I'm missing a few.

[tsherkin]

I feel like Unseld gets a bit overlooked

He probably gets overlooked because he wasn't any kind of scorer. But he was a wide body, an incredible rebounder. Won a rebounding title in 75. Part of consecutive Washington Finals teams, including the one which won their only title. Good passer. Not Alvan Adams, Bill Walton type of level, but he was a solid and willing. And his first season was like a 21-game improvement over the year before. There were other things going on that year, but that's worth looking into a little more. Nice outlet passer. And when he did go to the basket, it was hard to stop him because he was so solid.

[penbeast0]

I feel like Unseld gets a bit overlooked

He probably gets overlooked because he wasn't any kind of scorer. But he was a wide body, an incredible rebounder. Won a rebounding title in 75. Part of consecutive Washington Finals teams, including the one which won their only title. Good passer. Not Alvan Adams, Bill Walton type of level, but he was a solid and willing. And his first season was like a 21-game improvement over the year before. There were other things going on that year, but that's worth looking into a little more. Nice outlet passer. And when he did go to the basket, it was hard to stop him because he was so solid.

More than nice outlet passer, arguably the GOAT at that one limited skill (and maybe at pick setting). He used to do something I've tried to teach my post players which is to get the rebound and pass it out BEFORE bringing the ball down to the body. It's so counterintuitive as you want to bring the rebound into the body for safely, but it opens up the fast break so nicely. Also, you need to know your teammates and where they will be; when the Bullets changed PGs you could see a notable diminution of those quick outlets (or maybe Jim Cleamons and Tom Henderson just weren't as aggressive about getting out on the break).

[tsherkin]

More than nice outlet passer, arguably the GOAT at that one limited skill (and maybe at pick setting). He used to do something I've tried to teach my post players which is to get the rebound and pass it out BEFORE bringing the ball down to the body. It's so counterintuitive as you want to bring the rebound into the body for safely, but it opens up the fast break so nicely.

Yeah, if you can get a two-handed grip on it and look downcourt, lots of stuff opens up, for sure.

And yeah, Unseld was about as immovable and unforgiving as it gets setting a screen.