RealGM

ShotCreator wrote:Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

ShotCreator wrote:Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

LukaTheGOAT wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

How is Shai not an elite rim pressure guy? Also, his midrange shooting more than lived up to the billing, even though his 3pt shooting did slump some in the PS.

ShotCreator wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

How is Shai not an elite rim pressure guy? Also, his midrange shooting more than lived up to the billing, even though his 3pt shooting did slump some in the PS.

Shia’s current drives and playmaking stats are at Jalen Brusons’s level. Nearly identical across the board. That is not elite in the 2010’s.

Westbrook and Harden’s style of driving and passing is way more hectic for a defense. Much more explosive, and they are much better lob and skip passers.

Even when WB missed(which he did a lot), he increased the OREB rate a ton because he occupied help defenders much more than Shai.

And he generated shots on passing at nearly twice the rate on drives.

Shai is methodical, but without an actual method. He plays at CP3 pace but his shooting number from all over are much lower and his vision is much worse. The defense can see all his actions coming a mile away. There was just no serious pressure from anywhere. Denver was happy leaving him to iso and timing random doubles.

If any of these guards were defended how Shai was against Denver the output would’ve been astronomical.

Harden butchered LA and he had mediocre shooting around him while getting doubled from behind the 3P line. That 2020 Lakers defense was by far better than anything Shai faced, and Harden topped any of his series while having far worse help.

It’s an entirely different level he’s being compared to here.

Peak Harden’s shooting threat was much scarier than Shai’s even without a mid-range game for the most part.

By all indications, Jalen Brunson was at least as dominant as Shai offensively this past playoff run.

I can’t say a guy operating at that level is even close to these other guys.


And defensively, his edge is minor, if it’s there at all. I don’t think he was better defender than CP3 at all, but Harden is closer the people would think but that’s another discussion entirely.

ShotCreator wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

How is Shai not an elite rim pressure guy? Also, his midrange shooting more than lived up to the billing, even though his 3pt shooting did slump some in the PS.

Shia’s current drives and playmaking stats are at Jalen Brusons’s level. Nearly identical across the board. That is not elite in the 2010’s.

Westbrook and Harden’s style of driving and passing is way more hectic for a defense. Much more explosive, and they are much better lob and skip passers.

Even when WB missed(which he did a lot), he increased the OREB rate a ton because he occupied help defenders much more than Shai.

And he generated shots on passing at nearly twice the rate on drives.

Shai is methodical, but without an actual method. He plays at CP3 pace but his shooting number from all over are much lower and his vision is much worse. The defense can see all his actions coming a mile away. There was just no serious pressure from anywhere. Denver was happy leaving him to iso and timing random doubles.

If any of these guards were defended how Shai was against Denver the output would’ve been astronomical.

Harden butchered LA and he had mediocre shooting around him while getting doubled from behind the 3P line. That 2020 Lakers defense was by far better than anything Shai faced, and Harden topped any of his series while having far worse help.

It’s an entirely different level he’s being compared to here.

Peak Harden’s shooting threat was much scarier than Shai’s even without a mid-range game for the most part.

By all indications, Jalen Brunson was at least as dominant as Shai offensively this past playoff run.

I can’t say a guy operating at that level is even close to these other guys.


And defensively, his edge is minor, if it’s there at all. I don’t think he was better defender than CP3 at all, but Harden is closer the people would think but that’s another discussion entirely.

falcolombardi wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:

How is Shai not an elite rim pressure guy? Also, his midrange shooting more than lived up to the billing, even though his 3pt shooting did slump some in the PS.

Shia’s current drives and playmaking stats are at Jalen Brusons’s level. Nearly identical across the board. That is not elite in the 2010’s.

Westbrook and Harden’s style of driving and passing is way more hectic for a defense. Much more explosive, and they are much better lob and skip passers.

Even when WB missed(which he did a lot), he increased the OREB rate a ton because he occupied help defenders much more than Shai.

And he generated shots on passing at nearly twice the rate on drives.

Shai is methodical, but without an actual method. He plays at CP3 pace but his shooting number from all over are much lower and his vision is much worse. The defense can see all his actions coming a mile away. There was just no serious pressure from anywhere. Denver was happy leaving him to iso and timing random doubles.

If any of these guards were defended how Shai was against Denver the output would’ve been astronomical.

Harden butchered LA and he had mediocre shooting around him while getting doubled from behind the 3P line. That 2020 Lakers defense was by far better than anything Shai faced, and Harden topped any of his series while having far worse help.

It’s an entirely different level he’s being compared to here.

Peak Harden’s shooting threat was much scarier than Shai’s even without a mid-range game for the most part.

By all indications, Jalen Brunson was at least as dominant as Shai offensively this past playoff run.

I can’t say a guy operating at that level is even close to these other guys.


And defensively, his edge is minor, if it’s there at all. I don’t think he was better defender than CP3 at all, but Harden is closer the people would think but that’s another discussion entirely.

"no rim pressure" (league leader in drives with elite inside efficiency) "no shooting threat" (all time level mid range scoring) and "methodical without method" (his team lead ball handler, passer, scorer with low turnovers) i dont know which part of your comments i find more wrong here


On the metrics side

Do you think the better than jokic advanced metrics/RAPM and outlier on court net rating came by sheer luck?

This is not some funny mike conley outlier impact metrics year either, but rather a guy whose team relied completely on offensively as they struggled to score, playmake, handle the ball or even shot open jumpers all playoffs long

and lapped his own co stars and the whole league with how dominant his team was when he was on the court (with okc with shai + anyone being comparable to the peak warriors years when they had curry/draymond and/or durant together)

ShotCreator wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:

I mean, you're talking regular season play. I'm talking, when teams actually scheme and focused in the playoffs, Shai took a huge step down in his past run.

Shai regular season was truly historically great, getting worsr than that is not nearly as damning as you make it sound

OKC's offense fell off a cliff

1- cavs 123.5 (137 vs miami, 113 vs indiana)
2- Lac 115.6
3- okc 115.3
4- indy 115.2
5- min 114.6
6- bos 114.4
7- nyk 113.3
8- mke 112.2
9- hou 112.1
10 den 110.1

That is almost all because of the drop off from Shai. Their defense held up. Their offense sputtered. Shai was not creating high quality shots for guys with this predictable play style.

Not quite true, shai created plenty of wide open shots directly by attacking or by getting doubled

And there is somethingh odd about using predictable as a criticism in relation to harden of all people.

Predictable play style doesnt mean less effective when you can score at all 3 levels, dribble through pressure and recognizing passing opportunities which shai (or harden or the also methodical paul do)

Shai is visibly and empirically easy to scheme against compared to these guys.

So easy to scheme against that it just won a ring with a top end playoffs offense in spite of awful across the board teammate shooting?

In the playoffs, he brought minimal pressure from anywhere

.

What is even your idea of pressure here?

The guy scoring 30+ over and over and forcing doubles and help D and forcing fouling?
The guy who leads the league in drives to the rim?

You have to understand how good you have to shoot from mid-range to really demand high level pressure from there.

I do because i have seen it all year long in okc, rival teams through the playoffs clearly didnt get the memo they dont need to bother with defending against shai midrange or drives

That's the level you need to operate at if you're not an absolute animal at creating shots at the rim

Famously allergic to the rim and paint shai

He's not particularly special from anywhere.

64% from 0-3 feet is not special at his volume as a slasher + a strong ft rate?

Shooting 49% from 3-10 feet? 50% from 10-16? All of these in last year playoffs

Shai's PS impact metrics were putrid compared to his RS numbers. His PS RAPTOR and EPM at the least, were basically half of what they were in the RS

.

He fell off from the league best EPM in regular season to the league best EPM in the playoffs?

This is not the damning argument you are acting like it is

His series against Denver most showed me his limitations because it was his best series and Denver's style of defending him was still gimmicky and they nearly won for it.

But you compare it later to booker 23 series where he played his best career series vs denver but actually lost instead?

Actually imagine what an athletic peak Westbrook would do to a Jokic-led(and I really mean led, he was their best defender in all years except 2023 because of Bruce Brown) defense.

I am literally a okc fan, i have seen prime athletic westbrook be painfully sonned by ricky rubio

I have seen and followed westbrook and defended him here plenty of times, he was great but not some lebron-like unfallible player

Imagine what 2020 Harden would do, if a Caruso/LeBron/Davis/Green rotation needed spam doubles just to let him dominate anyway.

Now you dont care he lost in 5? But do care than shai needed 7 to win vs denver?

You put any of these guards in their peaks on OKC in place of Shai and they would sweep Denver and dominate Indiana. CP3 and Harden especially

And you know this because?

falcolombardi wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:

ShotCreator wrote:


Shai regular season was truly historically great, getting worsr than that is not nearly as damning as you make it sound



1- cavs 123.5 (137 vs miami, 113 vs indiana)
2- Lac 115.6
3- okc 115.3
4- indy 115.2
5- min 114.6
6- bos 114.4
7- nyk 113.3
8- mke 112.2
9- hou 112.1
10 den 110.1




Not quite true, shai created plenty of wide open shots directly by attacking or by getting doubled

And there is somethingh odd about using predictable as a criticism in relation to harden of all people.

Predictable play style doesnt mean less effective when you can score at all 3 levels, dribble through pressure and recognizing passing opportunities which shai (or harden or the also methodical paul do)



So easy to scheme against that it just won a ring with a top end playoffs offense in spite of awful across the board teammate shooting?

.

What is even your idea of pressure here?

The guy scoring 30+ over and over and forcing doubles and help D and forcing fouling?
The guy who leads the league in drives to the rim?




I do because i have seen it all year long in okc, rival teams through the playoffs clearly didnt get the memo they dont need to bother with defending against shai midrange or drives



Famously allergic to the rim and paint shai




64% from 0-3 feet is not special at his volume as a slasher + a strong ft rate?

Shooting 49% from 3-10 feet? 50% from 10-16? All of these in last year playoffs

.

He fell off from the league best EPM in regular season to the league best EPM in the playoffs?

This is not the damning argument you are acting like it is



But you compare it later to booker 23 series where he played his best career series vs denver but actually lost instead?



I am literally a okc fan, i have seen prime athletic westbrook be painfully sonned by ricky rubio

I have seen and followed westbrook and defended him here plenty of times, he was great but not some lebron-like unfallible player



Now you dont care he lost in 5? But do care than shai needed 7 to win vs denver?



And you know this because?