Defense only: Walt Frazier vs Jason Kidd

[-Luke-]

I listened to the last episode of the Thinking Basketball podcast, where the guys talked about Jason Kidd. I think Ben said Kidd is definitely a top 3 Point Guard of all time defenisvely. Cody asked who would be in contention and mentioned Walt Frazier. Ben also mentioned Gary Payton as a candidate for the top 3, and Cody mentioned Jrue Holiday, as he does in every episode (neither of them thought of Dennis Johnson in the short time).

If we look at defense only, who was the better defender between Frazier and Kidd?

Bonus questions:
- Do you think those two are the two best point guard defenders of all time (not defending points guards, but being a point guard)?
- If not, who do you have above them or above one of them?

[AStark1991]

Between Clyde and J-Kidd, I’m going with Clyde by a slight margin. But when talking about the greatest defensive point guard of all-time, my vote goes to Dennis Johnson. His impact on that end of the floor during his peak years as a defender (1978-1981) was absolutely phenomenal. 1978 was David “Skywalker” Thompson’s best season and DJ put the clamps on him in the Western Finals and also went on to set NBA Finals records which still stand to this day for both most blocks in a game by a guard with 7 and most blocks in a series by a guard with 17. Then in 1979 his defense was a major factor in why he was Finals MVP, recording 9 steals and 11 blocks in 5 games. And in both 1980 and 1981 he received the most votes for NBA All-Defensive Team while also finishing top 10 in MVP voting (5th in 1980, 8th in 1981) It’s also very likely that he would have had a DPOY on his resume if the award existed during that time frame, as his teams were also top 3 in the league in defensive rating every year during that span, including first place finishes in both 1979 and 1981. In addition to Larry Bird referring to him as his greatest teammate, both Magic Johnson and George “Iceman” Gervin have been quoted as saying that DJ was the toughest defender they ever faced. His defense on Magic in the 1984 Finals was another career highlight. All in all, he was selected to the All-Defensive Team 9 seasons in a row (1979-1987) with 6 of them being First Team selections.

[penbeast0]

Between Clyde and J-Kidd, I’m going with Clyde by a slight margin. But when talking about the greatest defensive point guard of all-time, my vote goes to Dennis Johnson. His impact on that end of the floor during his peak years as a defender (1978-1981) was absolutely phenomenal. 1978 was David “Skywalker” Thompson’s best season and DJ put the clamps on him in the Western Finals and also went on to set NBA Finals records which still stand to this day for both most blocks in a game by a guard with 7 and most blocks in a series by a guard with 17. Then in 1979 his defense was a major factor in why he was Finals MVP, recording 9 steals and 11 blocks in 5 games. And in both 1980 and 1981 he received the most votes for NBA All-Defensive Team while also finishing top 10 in MVP voting (5th in 1980, 8th in 1981) It’s also very likely that he would have had a DPOY on his resume if the award existed during that time frame, as his teams were also top 3 in the league in defensive rating every year during that span, including first place finishes in both 1979 and 1981. In addition to Larry Bird referring to him as his greatest teammate, both Magic Johnson and George “Iceman” Gervin have been quoted as saying that DJ was the toughest defender they ever faced. His defense on Magic in the 1984 Finals was another career highlight. All in all, he was selected to the All-Defensive Team 9 seasons in a row (1979-1987) with 6 of them being First Team selections.

In 78 and 79, he was playing 2 guard next to Gus Williams. Great defender early on, still a very good one in Celtic years.

As for the OP, if we are including defensive rebounding, I might go Kidd who was a great rebounding guard. Frazier was clearly the better man defender, team/help defensive impact could go either way. Kidd's prime as a top defender was longer.

[kcktiny]

But when talking about the greatest defensive point guard of all-time, my vote goes to Dennis Johnson. His impact on that end of the floor during his peak years as a defender (1978-1981) was absolutely phenomenal.

In 78 and 79, he was playing 2 guard next to Gus Williams.

Dennis Johnson did not play PG as his primary position until his 8th season in the league, his 2nd season with the Celtics, when he was already 30 years of age. As to his 1st 7 seasons:

- in 77-78, 78-79, and 79-80 the Seattle PG was Gus Williams (2572, 2266, and 2969 min)
- in 80-81 the Phoenix PGs were Johnny High and Kyle Macy (3219 min)
- in 81-82 the Phoenix PG was Kyle Macy (2845 min)
- in 82-83 the Phoenix PGs were Macy and High again (2991 min)
- in 83-84 the Boston PGs were Gerald Henderson and Quinn Buckner (3337 min)

One of the greatest defensive SGs in league history. All-defensive 1st team 6 times, 1978-79 to 1982-83, all-defensive 2nd team 1983-84.

As a PG he was voted to the all-defensive team 3 times, all-2nd team in 1984-85 and 1985-86, and all-1st team in 1986-87 (age 32).

As for Frazier/Kidd, I vote Frazier.

[homecourtloss]

I listened to the last episode of the Thinking Basketball podcast, where the guys talked about Jason Kidd. I think Ben said Kidd is definitely a top 3 Point Guard of all time defenisvely. Cody asked who would be in contention and mentioned Walt Frazier. Ben also mentioned Gary Payton as a candidate for the top 3, and Cody mentioned Jrue Holiday, as he does in every episode (neither of them thought of Dennis Johnson in the short time).

If we look at defense only, who was the better defender between Frazier and Kidd?

Bonus questions:
- Do you think those two are the two best point guard defenders of all time (not defending points guards, but being a point guard)?
- If not, who do you have above them or above one of them?

Between Kidd and Frazier, I have to go with Kidd due to how long he was able to provide plus defense in quite different NBA landscapes even though Frazier is one of my favorite players ever. At their peaks, you can make an argument for both though I still favor Kidd.

If you look at career DRAPM, Kidd is a 95th+ percentile defensive impact player as a guard. He was a defensive monster in his Nets’ days and then was a plus defender as an older player in Dallas. Extremely strong hands, good length, very strong body, quick movement, light on his feet, very high IQ. If anyone here got a chance to watch him live, he was vocal on court and was QBing defenses and you could see the wheels turning looking for actions and rotations.

I Ben also mentioned Gary Payton as a candidate for the top 3, and Cody mentioned Jrue Holiday, as he ?

There are things to like about Gary Payton on defense, things that stand out to anyone, but when you look at his overall impact on defense, there’s just no overall data support to have him anywhere near someone like Kidd. Gary Payton and Joe Dumars (another player that lacks data support) might be the two most overrated defenders of all time (along with Kobe but we’ve seen the push back on him) relative to what information we have about them.

[kcktiny]

There are things to like about Gary Payton on defense, things that stand out to anyone, but when you look at his overall impact on defense, there’s just no overall data support to have him anywhere near someone like Kidd.

No overall data to support him anywhere near Kidd? Are you serious?

NBA head coaches think differently than you. Kidd was all-defensive team 9 times, all-defensive 1st team 4 times. Payton was all-defensive team 9 times, all-defensive 1st team all 9 times (and they played in the league at the same time for 13 seasons).

Just why do you think that is?

[penbeast0]

There are things to like about Gary Payton on defense, things that stand out to anyone, but when you look at his overall impact on defense, there’s just no overall data support to have him anywhere near someone like Kidd.

No overall data to support him anywhere near Kidd? Are you serious?

NBA head coaches think differently than you. Kidd was all-defensive team 9 times, all-defensive 1st team 4 times. Payton was all-defensive team 9 times, all-defensive 1st team all 9 times (and they played in the league at the same time for 13 seasons).

Just why do you think that is?

I think it's that Payton's Drtg, DRAPM, and similar measures that elevate Jason Kidd have never matched up to Payton's reputation with Nate McMillan actually coming out higher in those kind of measures that I've seen. Defensive stat measures aren't the most reliable (maybe DRAPM, I'm not the best one to judge) though but it was a surprise when I first had it pointed out to me.

[Ol Roy]

[penbeast0]

The above, not eye factor or anything else, is the main argument for Kidd's defensive impact. When he was playing, people said he was good but not able to keep up with the smaller quicker PGs but made up for it with his defensive rebounding. It was the team Drtg ratings that really made the case for Kidd (and the team Ortg ratings that made people question whether he was really the GOAT level playmaker some people at the team were arguing)

[kcktiny]

I think it's that Payton's Drtg, DRAPM, and similar measures that elevate Jason Kidd have never matched up to Payton's reputation with Nate McMillan actually coming out higher in those kind of measures

Correct.

Which is why plus/minus numbers are totally unreliable, despite what's it's authors/creators profess.

Plus/minus only compares a player's numbers to his teammates, and not anyone else in the league. So if your backup is just as good a defender as you are, or better, the numbers are not going to show that both players were great on defense.

The 6 seasons McMillan was Payton's primary backup Payton was all-defensive 1st team 3 of those seasons. But where Payton had a high per minute steal rate those 6 seasons, McMillan had the highest in the league (and a better defensive rebounder and shot blocker than Payton). Both were excellent defenders (McMillan was all-defensive 2nd team twice during those 6 seasons).

But here we are some 3 decades after they actually played with someone who never watched either play when they actually did in fact play trying to tell the world Payton was not a great defender because their mathematical concoction says so. And when you point that out to them, they don't say well in this case the concoction is wrong - no, they insist this player they never saw play was not good on defense. Or, as in this case, not as good a defender as another good defender on another team but who's backup was a poor or not very good defender.

And as mentioned in other threads, DRtg, PER, Win Shares, VORP, and any number of these other so called "advanced" analytical measures do not account for individual player shot defense. Never have.

but it was a surprise when I first had it pointed out to me.

A surprise to you because you know Payton was a great defender and those measures were clearly BS, or a surprise to you because you thought oh those measures must be right and everyone who voted Payton to multiple all-defensive 1st teams must be wrong?

The above, not eye factor or anything else, is the main argument for Kidd's defensive impact.

Kidd's defensive impact? Not his team's defensive impact?

Ok.

From 1997-98 to 2000-01, Phoenix as a team was 4th best in the league defensively at 99.3 pts/100poss allowed (Kidd lead the team in minutes played). Only San Antonio, New York, and Miami were better defensively.

From 2001-02 to 2006-07 New Jersey as a team was 3rd best in the league defensively at 100.3 pts/100poss allowed (Kidd lead the team in minutes played). Only San Antonio and Detroit were better.

But from 1992-93 to 1999-00 Seattle as a team was 4th best in the league defensively at 102.5 pts/100poss allowed (Payton lead the team in minutes played). Only New York, Portland, and Chicago were better. 4th best - yet that Seattle team ranked just 14th in lowest 2pt FG% allowed (47.6%), just 8th in lowest 3pt FG% allowed, and ranked only 18th in highest defensive rebounding percentage (68.3%) all that time.

Then how did they rank 4th best defensively? Because they ranked 1st in steals (11.1 st/g), and 1st in opponent turnovers forced (18.7 to/g). Those 8 seasons Payton had 1444 steals, no other Sonics player had even half that many. That's 22% of the team's total steals over all that time.

So what does this say about Payton's defensive impact?

[iggymcfrack]

There are things to like about Gary Payton on defense, things that stand out to anyone, but when you look at his overall impact on defense, there’s just no overall data support to have him anywhere near someone like Kidd.

No overall data to support him anywhere near Kidd? Are you serious?

NBA head coaches think differently than you. Kidd was all-defensive team 9 times, all-defensive 1st team 4 times. Payton was all-defensive team 9 times, all-defensive 1st team all 9 times (and they played in the league at the same time for 13 seasons).

Just why do you think that is?

All-defense selections were useless during the era when the coaches voted. They was basically just who’s a good offensive player who had some good defensive highlights playing on-ball. Kobe had the 2nd most all-time even though he was a bottom 5% defender in the league by the analytics.

[kcktiny]

All-defense selections were useless during the era when the coaches voted.

Oh we get it.

According to you the NBA coaches who actually coached and game planned on a daily basis over entire NBA seasons against all opposing teams and players had no clue who the best defenders were?

Really?

They was basically just who’s a good offensive player who had some good defensive highlights playing on-ball.

Oh. You mean like Ben Wallace, and Bruce Bowen, and Dikembe Mutombo, and Dennis Rodman, and Mark Eaton, and Manute Bol, and...

Those really good offensive players that just happened to have some good defensive highlights?

Kobe had the 2nd most all-time even though he was a bottom 5% defender in the league by the analytics.

You by chance mean Kobe Bryant (and not Kobe Bufkin or Kobe Brown). Just want to be sure.

The 9 seasons Kobe Bryant was named all-defensive 1st team (1999-00, 2002-03, 2003-04, 2005-06 to 2010-11) the Lakers were the 4th best defensive team in the league at 103.0 pts/100poss allowed. Only San Antonio, Boston, and Houston were better defensively.

Those 9 seasons Bryant himself played 1/7 to 1/6 of the Lakers' total minutes played, 26555 minutes. No other Laker played even 16000 minutes. Yet you claim he was not a very good defender, but was a bottom 5% defender?

Care to explain how a team was 4th overall in defensive efficiency over 9 seasons with one player playing 1/7 to 1/6 of the team's total minutes but being a bottom 5% defender?

I challenge you to show ANY analytics that verify this.

This should be good.

[penbeast0]

I think it's that Payton's Drtg, DRAPM, and similar measures that elevate Jason Kidd have never matched up to Payton's reputation with Nate McMillan actually coming out higher in those kind of measures...but it was a surprise when I first had it pointed out to me.

A surprise to you because you know Payton was a great defender and those measures were clearly BS, or a surprise to you because you thought oh those measures must be right and everyone who voted Payton to multiple all-defensive 1st teams must be wrong?

a. A surprise to me because in the 5 or 6 games I'd see him play each year, he played with tremendous energy on that end and had the big reputation. I use both eye test and numbers (to the extent I understand them) to rank players and I have Payton very high, but not Frazier and Kidd level.

The above, not eye factor or anything else, is the main argument for Kidd's defensive impact.

Kidd's defensive impact? Not his team's defensive impact?

Ok.

From 1997-98 to 2000-01, Phoenix as a team was 4th best in the league defensively at 99.3 pts/100poss allowed (Kidd lead the team in minutes played). Only San Antonio, New York, and Miami were better defensively.

From 2001-02 to 2006-07 New Jersey as a team was 3rd best in the league defensively at 100.3 pts/100poss allowed (Kidd lead the team in minutes played). Only San Antonio and Detroit were better.

But from 1992-93 to 1999-00 Seattle as a team was 4th best in the league defensively at 102.5 pts/100poss allowed (Payton lead the team in minutes played). Only New York, Portland, and Chicago were better. 4th best - yet that Seattle team ranked just 14th in lowest 2pt FG% allowed (47.6%), just 8th in lowest 3pt FG% allowed, and ranked only 18th in highest defensive rebounding percentage (68.3%) all that time.

Then how did they rank 4th best defensively? Because they ranked 1st in steals (11.1 st/g), and 1st in opponent turnovers forced (18.7 to/g). Those 8 seasons Payton had 1444 steals, no other Sonics player had even half that many. That's 22% of the team's total steals over all that time.

So what does this say about Payton's defensive impact?

That Payton is a top 5 defensive PG of all time. But the impact arguments about Kidd's impact moved him up in my eyes from a very good defensive PG to in the discussion for top 2. Good as Payton's are, Kidd's are even more impressive.

I'm not trying to minimize Payton's impact. He's one of the great defenders. I was just trying to compare him to Kidd and Frazier.

[kcktiny]

the impact arguments about Kidd's impact moved him up... Good as Payton's are, Kidd's are even more impressive.

What pray tell were these "impact arguments"?

[Texas Chuck]

glad this thread got hijacked by Gary Payton and strawmen arguments about a claim that saying he wasn't quite as good as an all-time great defender means he sucks.

If you want a thread on how great Payton is, cool. Go start it. But we should be able to discuss other players without you getting upset because a player you love isn't involved so you desperately shoehorn him in and then go to logical fallacies....


I think back to the OP if we are talking about better defender, its Kidd for me. But if we are talking specifically about PG defense, I'd definitely go with Clyde. Kidd was fine defending PG's early in his career, but with his knee issues he stopped being quick enough to consistently do that. Of course his ability to defend big wings offset that in terms of overall defensive impact. But if you want to highlight defending PG's Clyde gets the nod.

[falcolombardi]

I think i like kidd a bit more over frazier but they are good in very different ways

Frazier is a on ball point of attack killer that could make the life of even the likes of (older) jerry west hell on tape, i got some minor concerns when comparing him to modern POA monsters (jrue, dort, caruso, tony allen) who play against better ball handlers with looser carry rules but he still stood out in his own era

and kidd is elite at help Defense and defending bigger players as well as adding extra value in rebounding amd being a on court coach of sorts as a play caller which is om average somewhat of a more impactful profile all else being equal