RealGM

There aren’t many comparisons between Kevin Garnett’s career and Kevin Durant’s.

Durant is one of the GOATs on O and pretty good on D; KG was one of the GOATs on D and pretty good on O. KG and KD, who you go?

Both won 1 MVP with their draft teams, needed a super team to win, saw their impact fade late in their career due to injury. Durant carried his draft team further in the playoffs, won more titles with a super team, and maintained his value even after a more serious injury.

dygaction wrote:Durant is one of the GOATs on O and pretty good on D; KG was one of the GOATs on D and pretty good on O. KG and KD, who you go?

This seems too charitable to Durant and undersells KG. Durant's scoring can be argued as GOAT level but his overall offensive package cannot be argued so. Wouldn't grade his defense as "pretty good" either.

On the other hand, KG is certified GOAT level as a defender and provided more value on offense with his passing and shooting ability than Durant did with his defense (length and some rim protection but not noteworthy otherwise).

Give me KG any day.

I have Garnett at least two tiers ahead of Durant, they are quite far apart on my all-time list.

It's KG fairly clearly. For me KD is around 11th or 12th all-time, whereas KG is inside the top 10 (probably around 8-10). That doesn't seem like much, but there's a pretty clear line for me between say 9th and 11th.

One_and_Done wrote:It's KG fairly clearly. For me KD is around 11th or 12th all-time, whereas KG is inside the top 10 (probably around 8-10). That doesn't seem like much, but there's a pretty clear line for me between say 9th and 11th.

I see the predominant favor over KG on this board, but you can hardly find it anywhere else. ESPN had KD at 14 and KG at 20 back in 2020, and KD has added another solid 5 years of longevity since then.


For fun, ChatGPT 5 Prompt: Give your top 20 NBA players of all time.
Alright — if we’re going with my own **ChatGPT “eye test” + stats + legacy + impact** blend, here’s my *personal* top 20 all-time NBA players list.

I’m valuing peak dominance, career longevity, championships, versatility, and influence on the game.

---

**1. Michael Jordan** — The gold standard: perfect Finals record (6–0), 6× Finals MVP, 5× MVP, unmatched killer instinct.
**2. LeBron James** — Longevity king, all-time leading scorer, elite across every facet for over 20 years.
**3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar** — 6× MVP, 6× champion, unstoppable skyhook, absurd career longevity.
**4. Bill Russell** — 11 championships in 13 seasons, 5× MVP, defensive genius, ultimate winner.
**5. Magic Johnson** — 6'9" point guard who reinvented the position; 5× champ, 3× MVP, Finals MVP as a rookie.
**6. Larry Bird** — 3× champ, 3× MVP, elite shooter and competitor, one of the best clutch players ever.
**7. Shaquille O’Neal** — Most dominant physical force since Wilt; 4× champ, 3× Finals MVP.
**8. Tim Duncan** — Mr. Consistency; 5× champ, 2× MVP, all-time great on both ends.
**9. Kobe Bryant** — 5× champ, legendary work ethic, elite scoring and defense, defining player of the 2000s.
**10. Hakeem Olajuwon** — Footwork wizard, 2× champ, MVP, all-time shot blocker leader.
**11. Wilt Chamberlain** — Statistical god (100-point game, 50 ppg season), 2× champ, 4× MVP.
**12. Oscar Robertson** — First triple-double season, MVP, versatile and ahead of his time.
**13. Stephen Curry** — Changed basketball forever with his shooting, 4× champ, 2× MVP (first unanimous).
**14. Kevin Durant** — Pure scoring machine; 2× champ, MVP, unstoppable one-on-one.
**15. Jerry West** — “The Logo,” elite clutch play, Finals MVP on a losing team, 9× Finals appearances.
**16. Dirk Nowitzki** — Changed the role of big men, MVP, 2011 Finals run was legendary.
**17. Giannis Antetokounmpo** — Still active but already 2× MVP, DPOY, Finals MVP, complete two-way force.
**18. Charles Barkley** — MVP, undersized rebounding machine, one of the best players never to win a ring.
**19. Julius Erving (Dr. J)** — ABA/NBA legend, aerial pioneer, style icon, 3× champ (including ABA).
**20. Elgin Baylor** — 11× All-Star, scoring innovator, carried Lakers to multiple Finals appearances.

---

If you want, I can also give you my **era-by-era breakdown** so guys like Wilt, West, and Baylor get fairly compared without punishing them for playing in smaller leagues. That tends to produce a cleaner "GOAT list" across generations.

Prompt: Why is KG not on top 20? Where do you have him?
Kevin Garnett just misses my personal top 20 — I’d have him in the **21–25 range all time**.

Here’s why:

### ✅ What boosts his case

* **Defensive Greatness:** One of the best defenders in NBA history — 2008 DPOY, 12× All-Defensive selections. Could guard all five positions at his peak.
* **Versatility:** Elite passer for a big, great midrange shooter, and a relentless competitor.
* **Longevity:** 21 seasons, consistently impactful into his mid-30s.
* **Championship Impact:** Completely changed Boston’s culture in 2008, leading to a title.
* **MVP & Accolades:** 2004 MVP, 15× All-Star, 9× All-NBA.

### ❌ Why I don’t have him in *my* top 20

* **Scoring:** Very good but not historically dominant offensively compared to guys like Dirk, KD, or Barkley.
* **Playoff Success in Minnesota:** Only got out of the first round once in 12 years there — mostly due to poor rosters, but it still impacts career narrative.
* **Era Competition:** He’s in a power forward era with Duncan, Dirk, and Malone — all of whom I think rank slightly higher for different reasons (Duncan: titles + consistency, Dirk: historic 2011 run + offensive value, Malone: sustained production as 2nd all-time scorer).

**My ranking for KG:** around **#22 all-time** — behind my top 20, but ahead of guys like John Stockton, David Robinson, and Dwyane Wade.

If you want, I can show you my **full top 50** so you can see exactly where KG lands relative to everyone. That would make the context a lot clearer.

Whopper_Sr wrote:

dygaction wrote:Durant is one of the GOATs on O and pretty good on D; KG was one of the GOATs on D and pretty good on O. KG and KD, who you go?

This seems too charitable to Durant and undersells KG. Durant's scoring can be argued as GOAT level but his overall offensive package cannot be argued so. Wouldn't grade his defense as "pretty good" either.

On the other hand, KG is certified GOAT level as a defender and provided more value on offense with his passing and shooting ability than Durant did with his defense (length and some rim protection but not noteworthy otherwise).

Give me KG any day.

For ATG top 20s, I may say KG would rank second worst on O only after Bill Russell. For KD, his defense may not be even among the top 5 worst.

People once believed the world was flat. The fact most people believe something is true doesn't make it so. I think rather than relying on chatgpt, you should focus more on the arguments.

KG was a hugely impactful player. His more extreme fans make it tough for me to speak out for him sometimes, but he's certainly above KD.

In terms of scoring, they are both midrange oriented. KG had some really nice post moves too, but overall KD is obviously better. He's more aggressive in that regard and he's a better shooter. With that said, the changes making it easier to score should be factored in, and in fairness to KG he is an all-time midrange shooter in his own right, just not on KD's level.

Now, I do think it's more plausible than not that KG could have traded many of his long twos for threes, thereby boosting his efficiency and increasing spacing, if that was imposed on him by his coaches. But he was just a generation too early to be a 3P-bombing big man. Even Dirk only averaged about 3 attempts per game. Anyway, for the record, I think that ability was in KG's toolkit.

The thing is, KD is all about scoring. That's why he plays the game. KG was much more than that.

I mentioned in the KG vs. Bird thread that I saw some similarities between the two. Their willingness to contribute off-ball and within the flow of a team offense is one of those similarities. KG was more than willing to spot up and space the floor. You had to keep your eye on him because he could instantly cut and become a devastating lob threat. He was a monster screen setter. And, like Bird, he was a great connective "wheel greasing" passer. On top of that, he was a pretty decent ball handler/facilitator.

KD is often referred to as a "plug-and-play" scorer, and I think there is truth to that. But that is also distinct from being a glue guy. He's not detrimental to the offensive flow like some ISO scorers are, but his additive qualities beyond that are limited.

In terms of rebounding and defense (all-time great), KG far outpaces Durant. His intangibles are better, too.

I'm currently watching the 1999 Tournament of the Americas games on YouTube. Mainly because I wanted to see Garnett and Duncan play together (TD got injured before the Olympic games), but KG is definitely the standout on the squad. His impact stands out the most in multifaceted ways, and that was before he hit his peak.

dygaction wrote:

Whopper_Sr wrote:

dygaction wrote:Durant is one of the GOATs on O and pretty good on D; KG was one of the GOATs on D and pretty good on O. KG and KD, who you go?

This seems too charitable to Durant and undersells KG. Durant's scoring can be argued as GOAT level but his overall offensive package cannot be argued so. Wouldn't grade his defense as "pretty good" either.

On the other hand, KG is certified GOAT level as a defender and provided more value on offense with his passing and shooting ability than Durant did with his defense (length and some rim protection but not noteworthy otherwise).

Give me KG any day.

For ATG top 20s, I may say KG would rank second worst on O only after Bill Russell. For KD, his defense may not be even among the top 5 worst.

I'd go even further and say even on just the offensive side, I still prefer what KG offers (secondary scorer, floor spacer, connective passer, good playmaker especially for a big). Durant is of course the better individual scorer and outside shooter. I do not think he's better than KG by enough on that end to make up for the gap in passing and playmaking.

It's really KD's inability to leverage his passing for easier scoring opportunities for him and his team that's holding him back here.

Then on defense, they are worlds apart. KG is a top 5 defender of all time at worst while Durant is neutral to slightly above that.

dygaction wrote:I see the predominant favor over KG on this board, but you can hardly find it anywhere else. ESPN had KD at 14 and KG at 20 back in 2020, and KD has added another solid 5 years of longevity since then.

I understand why you'd be skeptical of an independent basketball message board being right when everyone else is wrong, but really what we're talking about are methods of drawing conclusions.

The origin of Garnett's unusual esteem on the board has to do with use of statistics and a considerably more analytical approach than what you'd get from mainstream journalists.

Funny thing though, if I were going to name one poster as the spearhead for the Garnett esteem, it would definitely be drza, with his participation in the '07-08 Retro POY discussion beginning with this post.

I'm happy to know he's doing well for himself in this world of basketball...

ESPN Bio: Dr. Andre Snellings

but I miss having drz 'round these parts.

Also, I should make clear, RealGM isn't unique in this regard. I'd expect you'd find people being extremely high Garnett relative to mainstream norms in anywhere known and respected for its analytical community, with the classic one being APBRmetrics, which has long been a place people tend to be drawn to if they want to get hired by NBA teams. And yeah, there's certainly going to be a general trend toward the people there having advanced degrees too, make of that what you will.

Doesn't mean the collective pack of KG zealots are right of course, but just speaking for myself, I can remember roughly being in alignment with the mainstream consensus on KG, and what arguments swayed me.

dygaction wrote:For fun, ChatGPT 5 Prompt: Give your top 20 NBA players of all time.
Alright — if we’re going with my own **ChatGPT “eye test” + stats + legacy + impact** blend, here’s my *personal* top 20 all-time NBA players list.

I’m valuing peak dominance, career longevity, championships, versatility, and influence on the game.

---

**1. Michael Jordan** — The gold standard: perfect Finals record (6–0), 6× Finals MVP, 5× MVP, unmatched killer instinct.
**2. LeBron James** — Longevity king, all-time leading scorer, elite across every facet for over 20 years.
**3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar** — 6× MVP, 6× champion, unstoppable skyhook, absurd career longevity.
**4. Bill Russell** — 11 championships in 13 seasons, 5× MVP, defensive genius, ultimate winner.
**5. Magic Johnson** — 6'9" point guard who reinvented the position; 5× champ, 3× MVP, Finals MVP as a rookie.
**6. Larry Bird** — 3× champ, 3× MVP, elite shooter and competitor, one of the best clutch players ever.
**7. Shaquille O’Neal** — Most dominant physical force since Wilt; 4× champ, 3× Finals MVP.
**8. Tim Duncan** — Mr. Consistency; 5× champ, 2× MVP, all-time great on both ends.
**9. Kobe Bryant** — 5× champ, legendary work ethic, elite scoring and defense, defining player of the 2000s.
**10. Hakeem Olajuwon** — Footwork wizard, 2× champ, MVP, all-time shot blocker leader.
**11. Wilt Chamberlain** — Statistical god (100-point game, 50 ppg season), 2× champ, 4× MVP.
**12. Oscar Robertson** — First triple-double season, MVP, versatile and ahead of his time.
**13. Stephen Curry** — Changed basketball forever with his shooting, 4× champ, 2× MVP (first unanimous).
**14. Kevin Durant** — Pure scoring machine; 2× champ, MVP, unstoppable one-on-one.
**15. Jerry West** — “The Logo,” elite clutch play, Finals MVP on a losing team, 9× Finals appearances.
**16. Dirk Nowitzki** — Changed the role of big men, MVP, 2011 Finals run was legendary.
**17. Giannis Antetokounmpo** — Still active but already 2× MVP, DPOY, Finals MVP, complete two-way force.
**18. Charles Barkley** — MVP, undersized rebounding machine, one of the best players never to win a ring.
**19. Julius Erving (Dr. J)** — ABA/NBA legend, aerial pioneer, style icon, 3× champ (including ABA).
**20. Elgin Baylor** — 11× All-Star, scoring innovator, carried Lakers to multiple Finals appearances.

---

If you want, I can also give you my **era-by-era breakdown** so guys like Wilt, West, and Baylor get fairly compared without punishing them for playing in smaller leagues. That tends to produce a cleaner "GOAT list" across generations.

Prompt: Why is KG not on top 20? Where do you have him?
Kevin Garnett just misses my personal top 20 — I’d have him in the **21–25 range all time**.

Here’s why:

### ✅ What boosts his case

* **Defensive Greatness:** One of the best defenders in NBA history — 2008 DPOY, 12× All-Defensive selections. Could guard all five positions at his peak.
* **Versatility:** Elite passer for a big, great midrange shooter, and a relentless competitor.
* **Longevity:** 21 seasons, consistently impactful into his mid-30s.
* **Championship Impact:** Completely changed Boston’s culture in 2008, leading to a title.
* **MVP & Accolades:** 2004 MVP, 15× All-Star, 9× All-NBA.

### ❌ Why I don’t have him in *my* top 20

* **Scoring:** Very good but not historically dominant offensively compared to guys like Dirk, KD, or Barkley.
* **Playoff Success in Minnesota:** Only got out of the first round once in 12 years there — mostly due to poor rosters, but it still impacts career narrative.
* **Era Competition:** He’s in a power forward era with Duncan, Dirk, and Malone — all of whom I think rank slightly higher for different reasons (Duncan: titles + consistency, Dirk: historic 2011 run + offensive value, Malone: sustained production as 2nd all-time scorer).

**My ranking for KG:** around **#22 all-time** — behind my top 20, but ahead of guys like John Stockton, David Robinson, and Dwyane Wade.

If you want, I can show you my **full top 50** so you can see exactly where KG lands relative to everyone. That would make the context a lot clearer.

So, responding to the ChatGPT part separately because I do find it quite interesting because it really seems to be doing quite well as a regurgitator of consensus in a very detailed way. I don't see anything egregiously wrong about it, and if that holds, that's a great way to gain a window not only into the average of some collective internet believes now, but also a way to consider how it changes with time.

I don't know if you thought about this - you might have already done stuff like this - but what I'd really like to see is a comparison of a number of lists generated right now to see how much variance there is.

Doctor MJ wrote:

dygaction wrote:For fun, ChatGPT 5 Prompt: Give your top 20 NBA players of all time.
Alright — if we’re going with my own **ChatGPT “eye test” + stats + legacy + impact** blend, here’s my *personal* top 20 all-time NBA players list.

I’m valuing peak dominance, career longevity, championships, versatility, and influence on the game.

---

**1. Michael Jordan** — The gold standard: perfect Finals record (6–0), 6× Finals MVP, 5× MVP, unmatched killer instinct.
**2. LeBron James** — Longevity king, all-time leading scorer, elite across every facet for over 20 years.
**3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar** — 6× MVP, 6× champion, unstoppable skyhook, absurd career longevity.
**4. Bill Russell** — 11 championships in 13 seasons, 5× MVP, defensive genius, ultimate winner.
**5. Magic Johnson** — 6'9" point guard who reinvented the position; 5× champ, 3× MVP, Finals MVP as a rookie.
**6. Larry Bird** — 3× champ, 3× MVP, elite shooter and competitor, one of the best clutch players ever.
**7. Shaquille O’Neal** — Most dominant physical force since Wilt; 4× champ, 3× Finals MVP.
**8. Tim Duncan** — Mr. Consistency; 5× champ, 2× MVP, all-time great on both ends.
**9. Kobe Bryant** — 5× champ, legendary work ethic, elite scoring and defense, defining player of the 2000s.
**10. Hakeem Olajuwon** — Footwork wizard, 2× champ, MVP, all-time shot blocker leader.
**11. Wilt Chamberlain** — Statistical god (100-point game, 50 ppg season), 2× champ, 4× MVP.
**12. Oscar Robertson** — First triple-double season, MVP, versatile and ahead of his time.
**13. Stephen Curry** — Changed basketball forever with his shooting, 4× champ, 2× MVP (first unanimous).
**14. Kevin Durant** — Pure scoring machine; 2× champ, MVP, unstoppable one-on-one.
**15. Jerry West** — “The Logo,” elite clutch play, Finals MVP on a losing team, 9× Finals appearances.
**16. Dirk Nowitzki** — Changed the role of big men, MVP, 2011 Finals run was legendary.
**17. Giannis Antetokounmpo** — Still active but already 2× MVP, DPOY, Finals MVP, complete two-way force.
**18. Charles Barkley** — MVP, undersized rebounding machine, one of the best players never to win a ring.
**19. Julius Erving (Dr. J)** — ABA/NBA legend, aerial pioneer, style icon, 3× champ (including ABA).
**20. Elgin Baylor** — 11× All-Star, scoring innovator, carried Lakers to multiple Finals appearances.

---

If you want, I can also give you my **era-by-era breakdown** so guys like Wilt, West, and Baylor get fairly compared without punishing them for playing in smaller leagues. That tends to produce a cleaner "GOAT list" across generations.

Prompt: Why is KG not on top 20? Where do you have him?
Kevin Garnett just misses my personal top 20 — I’d have him in the **21–25 range all time**.

Here’s why:

### ✅ What boosts his case

* **Defensive Greatness:** One of the best defenders in NBA history — 2008 DPOY, 12× All-Defensive selections. Could guard all five positions at his peak.
* **Versatility:** Elite passer for a big, great midrange shooter, and a relentless competitor.
* **Longevity:** 21 seasons, consistently impactful into his mid-30s.
* **Championship Impact:** Completely changed Boston’s culture in 2008, leading to a title.
* **MVP & Accolades:** 2004 MVP, 15× All-Star, 9× All-NBA.

### ❌ Why I don’t have him in *my* top 20

* **Scoring:** Very good but not historically dominant offensively compared to guys like Dirk, KD, or Barkley.
* **Playoff Success in Minnesota:** Only got out of the first round once in 12 years there — mostly due to poor rosters, but it still impacts career narrative.
* **Era Competition:** He’s in a power forward era with Duncan, Dirk, and Malone — all of whom I think rank slightly higher for different reasons (Duncan: titles + consistency, Dirk: historic 2011 run + offensive value, Malone: sustained production as 2nd all-time scorer).

**My ranking for KG:** around **#22 all-time** — behind my top 20, but ahead of guys like John Stockton, David Robinson, and Dwyane Wade.

If you want, I can show you my **full top 50** so you can see exactly where KG lands relative to everyone. That would make the context a lot clearer.

So, responding to the ChatGPT part separately because I do find it quite interesting because it really seems to be doing quite well as a regurgitator of consensus in a very detailed way. I don't see anything egregiously wrong about it, and if that holds, that's a great way to gain a window not only into the average of some collective internet believes now, but also a way to consider how it changes with time.

I don't know if you thought about this - you might have already done stuff like this - but what I'd really like to see is a comparison of a number of lists generated right now to see how much variance there is.

I gave it a try, it looks like the more CPU time it burns, the higher KG is ranked


ChatGPT 5:
Here’s a widely respected take on a **Top 20 NBA Players of All Time** list, balancing career dominance, championships, peak ability, and impact on the game.

---

## **Top 20 NBA Players of All Time**

### **Tier 1 – The GOAT Conversation**

1. **Michael Jordan** – 6× champion, 5× MVP, perfect Finals record, global icon.
2. **LeBron James** – 4× champion, 4× MVP, all-time leading scorer, unmatched longevity.
3. **Kareem Abdul-Jabbar** – 6× champion, 6× MVP, skyhook master, 20 years of dominance.

---

### **Tier 2 – Legends Who Defined Eras**

4. **Magic Johnson** – 5× champion, 3× MVP, greatest point guard vision ever.
5. **Bill Russell** – 11× champion, defensive anchor, unmatched team success.
6. **Wilt Chamberlain** – 2× champion, 4× MVP, statistical giant of the game.
7. **Larry Bird** – 3× champion, 3× MVP, one of the coldest shooters in history.
8. **Tim Duncan** – 5× champion, 2× MVP, most consistent power forward ever.

---

### **Tier 3 – Dominance & Skill**

9. **Shaquille O’Neal** – 4× champion, 1× MVP, most unstoppable force in the paint.
10. **Hakeem Olajuwon** – 2× champion, 1× MVP, elite on both offense & defense.
11. **Kobe Bryant** – 5× champion, 1× MVP, legendary scoring mentality.
12. **Oscar Robertson** – 1× champion, 1× MVP, averaged a triple-double in a season.

---

### **Tier 4 – Modern & Historical Greatness**

13. **Stephen Curry** – 4× champion, 2× MVP, greatest shooter of all time.
14. **Kevin Durant** – 2× champion, 1× MVP, elite scorer in any era.
15. **Jerry West** – 1× champion, “The Logo,” 10× Finals appearances.
16. **Moses Malone** – 3× MVP, dominant rebounder and scorer.

---

### **Tier 5 – The Next Few Icons**

17. **Dirk Nowitzki** – 1× champion, 1× MVP, revolutionized the stretch-big role.
18. **Giannis Antetokounmpo** – 1× champion, 2× MVP, still building his legacy.
19. **Charles Barkley** – 1× MVP, dominant despite undersized frame.
20. **Karl Malone** – 2× MVP, second all-time in points (regular season).

---

If you want, I can also give you a **stat-based ranking** that uses advanced metrics (PER, WS, BPM, RAPTOR, etc.) to rank the top 20 instead of purely opinion. That tends to produce some surprises.

ChatGPT 5 thinking:
Here’s my current Top 20 NBA all-time list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Tim Duncan
8. Larry Bird
9. Shaquille O’Neal
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Stephen Curry
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kevin Durant
15. Nikola Jokić
16. Moses Malone
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Karl Malone
19. Giannis Antetokounmpo
20. Kevin Garnett

Want it by tiers, positions, or weighted by advanced metrics? I can spin that up too.

ChatGPT Pro:
Here’s a clean **Top 20 NBA All‑Time** list (balancing peak, longevity, impact, accolades):

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Tim Duncan
8. Larry Bird
9. Shaquille O’Neal
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Stephen Curry
13. Nikola Jokić
14. Kevin Durant
15. Kevin Garnett
16. Oscar Robertson
17. Moses Malone
18. Dirk Nowitzki
19. Karl Malone
20. Giannis Antetokounmpo

*Next five out:* Jerry West, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, David Robinson, Kawhi Leonard.

I think ChatGPT is terrible source for any all-time rankings and other subjective topics, using it that way makes no sense at all.
I personally have KG as clearly superior player, his impact metrics and broad skills are much more desired in a basketball game. KD was just too limited in high-impact aspects like defense and playmaking.
So shouldn't be surprise to anyone that casuals rankings won't see him higher, as these areas are a margin topics there. High volume scorers are always boosted.

Doctor MJ wrote:

dygaction wrote:

I'm happy to know he's doing well for himself in this world of basketball...

ESPN Bio: Dr. Andre Snellings

but I miss having drz 'round these parts.

.

Didn’t realise Snellings was drza. Loved these articles. https://hoopslab.rotowire.com/post/150844038866/mechanisms-of-greatness-scouting-kevin-garnetts/amp

dygaction wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:It's KG fairly clearly. For me KD is around 11th or 12th all-time, whereas KG is inside the top 10 (probably around 8-10). That doesn't seem like much, but there's a pretty clear line for me between say 9th and 11th.

I see the predominant favor over KG on this board, but you can hardly find it anywhere else. ESPN had KD at 14 and KG at 20 back in 2020, and KD has added another solid 5 years of longevity since then.

I'm not saying that the PC is necessarily correct in regards to their evaluations of KD and KG, but its easy to see why the public might be overrating KD and underrating KG. KD's strongest attribute by far is his scoring. KG's weakest attribute is his scoring. KD is an offensive first player. KG is a defensive first player. KD had way better supporting casts in his prime and thus had way more team success in his prime.

KD in the 2000s wouldn't score anywhere near the points he has, not with the much more difficult condition for scoring. KG has him everywhere else and his scoring in the 2000s wasn't much below the best scorers mostly, particularly bigs. Durant doesn't elevate his teams much, not among alltime greats at least.

migya wrote:KD in the 2000s wouldn't score anywhere near the points he has, not with the much more difficult condition for scoring. KG has him everywhere else and his scoring in the 2000s wasn't much below the best scorers mostly, particularly bigs. Durant doesn't elevate his teams much, not among alltime greats at least.

Yeah, he probably would, to be honest. We watched how Dirk scored, and KD is a much more mobile guy. With his shooting ability, his handles and his mobility (even now, after the injury), he'd be lighting it up against those early 2000s defenses.

Take 2004 for example. In 03-04, league-average efficiency was 51.6% TS. If you look at just OKC Durant, he was scoring at 52.98% TS on just field goals, without accounting for free throws at all. And none of his percentages with the Thunder were especially different compared to what the best guys were doing in-era. That's without him shooting the 53% FG or so he's averaged from 3-23 feet since leaving the Thunder. Even if you diminish his FTr, he still comes out as a highly-efficient monster of a scorer.

He'd be a murder blender in any era.

tsherkin wrote:

migya wrote:KD in the 2000s wouldn't score anywhere near the points he has, not with the much more difficult condition for scoring. KG has him everywhere else and his scoring in the 2000s wasn't much below the best scorers mostly, particularly bigs. Durant doesn't elevate his teams much, not among alltime greats at least.

Yeah, he probably would, to be honest. We watched how Dirk scored, and KD is a much more mobile guy. With his shooting ability, his handles and his mobility (even now, after the injury), he'd be lighting it up against those early 2000s defenses.

Take 2004 for example. In 03-04, league-average efficiency was 51.6% TS. If you look at just OKC Durant, he was scoring at 52.98% TS on just field goals, without accounting for free throws at all. And none of his percentages with the Thunder were especially different compared to what the best guys were doing in-era. That's without him shooting the 53% FG or so he's averaged from 3-23 feet since leaving the Thunder. Even if you diminish his FTr, he still comes out as a highly-efficient monster of a scorer.

He'd be a murder blender in any era.

Nowitzki scored well but he did play bigger than Durant and did a bit more than just shooting. Durant is slower than most of the big wing scorers in that decade and that'd hinder him. He'd rely much more on his jumper than in his career. TMac and the others were faster and broke down defenses much better.

migya wrote:Nowitzki scored well but he did play bigger than Durant

He really didn't, though. He was a face-up slasher with perimeter shooting for the peak portion of his career. He added most of his post game to exploit smaller defenders after Miami and Golden State got underneath him and took away his quickness advantage against conventional bigs. By that point, he was a 23-25 ppg player for a couple years and then tailed off. He mostly played like a SF. He'd attack from the corners off-ball and from his face-up game, he'd attack triple threat from above the break. He'd slash in, pull up at the foul line, that sort of thing.

Definitely didn't play bigger than KD until a lot later.

Durant is slower than most of the big wing scorers in that decade and that'd hinder him.

Now, sure. He's 36 and has had an Achilles injury. In his youth, that was very much not true. He was a lot faster than, say, Nowitzki.

He'd rely much more on his jumper than in his career. TMac and the others were faster and broke down defenses much better.

McGrady's like 3 inches shorter than him and a less skillful shooter, so that's of less concern. And KD's one of the best isolation scorers in the game, so "broke down defenses much better" is hyperbole.

migya wrote:KD in the 2000s wouldn't score anywhere near the points he has, not with the much more difficult condition for scoring. KG has him everywhere else and his scoring in the 2000s wasn't much below the best scorers mostly, particularly bigs. Durant doesn't elevate his teams much, not among alltime greats at least.

Are we talking about an at least 4" taller Reggie Miller with MUCH improved vision and handling? KD’s combination of height, handle, and shooting makes him one of the most unguardable players in history. A pro max version of Bird in terms of scoring.

KD is a career 50/39/88 guy averaging 27ppg with .620TS% vs. KG's 19.1ppg with .549TS% (only counting till Boston time, similar to KD's current career length).

[/quote] Durant doesn't elevate his teams much, not among alltime greats at least.[/quote]

Who do you compare him against? He does it at least a lot better than KG, no?