RealGM

70sFan wrote:I don't have the time to go deep into Kareem's defensive abilities discussion, but you can create a separate thread and I will come back to that at some point.

This is the thread! (Poll added, cause why not)

Thanks, I will come back with some thoughts within next few days

I think 12-15 range seems about right. I don't think he had quite the same motor as a rim protector that the top guys had and lost some mobility by his late 20's so if I'm judging him based on his prime years I'd have him below quite a few guys who maintained that dpoy level for much longer and who were probably better at their peaks.

I don't think he had quite the same motor as a rim protector that the top guys had

Motor? Jabbar averaged playing 78 games and 3000+ minutes/season over his first 17 years in the league. Who had a better motor than that?

and lost some mobility by his late 20's

Jabbar was named all-defensive 1st team three straight seasons from the ages of 31-33 (1978-79 to 1980-81), in an era of some great defensive Cs like Tree Rollins, George Johnson, Robert Parish, Caldwell Jones, and a few others.

And that award was voted on by NBA head coaches, you know, those guys that knew who the best defenders were because they faced these players on a nightly basis.

so if I'm judging him based on his prime years I'd have him below quite a few guys who maintained that dpoy level for much longer

DPOY level longer than Jabbar? He was all-defensive 1st team in 1973-74 and 1980-81, a span of 8 seasons, and was named to all-defensive teams from 1969-70 to 1983-84 (that's 15 years of top level defense).

kcktiny wrote:

I don't think he had quite the same motor as a rim protector that the top guys had

Motor? Jabbar averaged playing 78 games and 3000+ minutes/season over his first 17 years in the league. Who had a better motor than that?

and lost some mobility by his late 20's

Jabbar was named all-defensive 1st team three straight seasons from the ages of 31-33 (1978-79 to 1980-81), in an era of some great defensive Cs like Tree Rollins, George Johnson, Robert Parish, Caldwell Jones, and a few others.

And that award was voted on by NBA head coaches, you know, those guys that knew who the best defenders were because they faced these players on a nightly basis.

so if I'm judging him based on his prime years I'd have him below quite a few guys who maintained that dpoy level for much longer

DPOY level longer than Jabbar? He was all-defensive 1st team in 1973-74 and 1980-81, a span of 8 seasons, and was named to all-defensive teams from 1969-70 to 1983-84 (that's 15 years of top level defense).

He was named 1st team after Walton's injuries took him out and no I don't think any of those guys you mention are like all time top 10 defenders either. It's also hard to be voted 1st team all def when you only play 20-30mpg. Playing a lot of minutes does not equate to having a high motor on defense. Just as LeBron was still playing heavy minutes after 2013 but most agree he wasn't quite the same defensive player in the rs. It's a really poor equivalency to draw. Kareem's block %'s were never that great(based on what we have from 1974 on). Much like how his off reb %'s were never that strong for a guy his size which again speaks to quickness in that area. Rodman got so many of those because of how quickly he could react and get to the ball. Kareem's %'s in both those categories were likely higher in the 70-73 years but I think he lost some of his quickness by the late 70's.

My initial instinct is outside of the top 25. He had that brief burst in Milwaukee to start the career, and then spent a lot of seasons anchoring pretty average defenses. Maybe 18-25 if you focus on the ABA era Milwaukee years.

Much higher than that is pretty questionable imo. Comparable to the best non-bigman defenders though.

Has some undeserved All-D awards over guys like Rollins/Sikma.

Guys I have over him pretty much no questions asked (prime):
Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Thurmond
Walton
Eaton
Olajuwon
Ewing
Robinson
Mourning
Duncan
B. Wallace
KG
Howard
Draymond
Gobert

That'd be a ceiling of 17, with plenty of other guys I'd listen on (Rollins/Sikma/R. Wallace/Noah/M. Gasol/Embiid/Mobley/etc). Might've forgotten somebody in the above group.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think 12-15 range seems about right. I don't think he had quite the same motor as a rim protector that the top guys had and lost some mobility by his late 20's so if I'm judging him based on his prime years I'd have him below quite a few guys who maintained that dpoy level for much longer and who were probably better at their peaks.

Listen, kid, he's been hearing that crap ever since he was at UCLA. He's out there busting his buns every night.

rrravenred wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think 12-15 range seems about right. I don't think he had quite the same motor as a rim protector that the top guys had and lost some mobility by his late 20's so if I'm judging him based on his prime years I'd have him below quite a few guys who maintained that dpoy level for much longer and who were probably better at their peaks.

Listen, kid, he's been hearing that crap ever since he was at UCLA. He's out there busting his buns every night.

It's not easy dragging Bob Lanier's ass up and down the court for 40 minutes.

He was named 1st team after Walton's injuries took him out

Jabbar was all-defensive team the 2 seasons before (1974-75 and 1975-76) when Walton was in the league, and 2 more seasons after (1979-80 and 1983-84) when Walton was in the league.

Jabbar was a far far better defender than Walton because he was on the floor far far more than Walton was. Even the 2 seasons Walton was all-defensive 1st team and Jabbar was all-defensive 2nd team Jabbar was still on the floor 1000+ more minutes. I'll take Jabbar's defense playing 500 more minutes in a season than Walton's defense every day of the week.

Walton was in the league from 1974-75 to 1986-87. During that time he played just 13250 minutes, Jabbar played 36236 minutes. Kind of hard to help your team defensively when you are always out injured.

and no I don't think any of those guys you mention are like all time top 10 defenders either

So?

They were some of the very best defensive big men in the league at the time.

It's also hard to be voted 1st team all def when you only play 20-30mpg.

Exactly - which is why Jabbar was such an incredibly valuable defender, because he was on the floor more than anyone else.

One of the key reasons he was voted to the all-defensive team 8 years in a row (1973-74 to 1980-81, 5 times 1st team) was because he played an average of 77 games and 3000+ minutes/season during that time, and lead the league in both blocks (2103) and defensive rebounds (6297). He was a great defender because he did both while committing very few fouls. Those 8 seasons 31 players had 500+ blocks, yet it was Jabbar - with the by far most blocks - that committed fouls at the lowest per minute rate (just 3.1 PF/40min) among those 31 players.

That ain't easy to do, and is why NBA head coaches repeatedly year after year voted him to the all-defensive team, 11 times in his career. A smart defender that was on the floor when his team needed him the most, not on the bench in foul trouble, that was still one of the best shot blockers in the league.

Playing a lot of minutes does not equate to having a high motor on defense.

Well, guess what? NBA head coaches thought differently than you.

Kareem's block %'s were never that great(based on what we have from 1974 on)

Oh no? Those 8 years he was annually all-defensive team Jabbar had the 5th highest per minute shot blocking rate (3.5 bs/40min) - only Tree Rollins, George Johnson, Harvey Catchings, and Elmore Smith were higher. Yet those first three committed fouls at twice the rate that Jabbar did, and Smith committed almost 50% more PF/min.

Do you even realize how hard it is to block shots while committing few fouls? In the history of the NBA among all players with 2000+ career blocks only 4 have a lower career per minute rate of fouls committed than Jabbar - Ben Wallace, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, and David Robinson.

kcktiny wrote:

He was named 1st team after Walton's injuries took him out

Jabbar was all-defensive team the 2 seasons before (1974-75 and 1975-76) when Walton was in the league, and 2 more seasons after (1979-80 and 1983-84) when Walton was in the league.

Jabbar was a far far better defender than Walton because he was on the floor far far more than Walton was. Even the 2 seasons Walton was all-defensive 1st team and Jabbar was all-defensive 2nd team Jabbar was still on the floor 1000+ more minutes. I'll take Jabbar's defense playing 500 more minutes in a season than Walton's defense every day of the week.

Walton was in the league from 1974-75 to 1986-87. During that time he played just 13250 minutes, Jabbar played 36236 minutes. Kind of hard to help your team defensively when you are always out injured.

and no I don't think any of those guys you mention are like all time top 10 defenders either

So?

They were some of the very best defensive big men in the league at the time.

It's also hard to be voted 1st team all def when you only play 20-30mpg.

Exactly - which is why Jabbar was such an incredibly valuable defender, because he was on the floor more than anyone else.

One of the key reasons he was voted to the all-defensive team 8 years in a row (1973-74 to 1980-81, 5 times 1st team) was because he played an average of 77 games and 3000+ minutes/season during that time, and lead the league in both blocks (2103) and defensive rebounds (6297). He was a great defender because he did both while committing very few fouls. Those 8 seasons 31 players had 500+ blocks, yet it was Jabbar - with the by far most blocks - that committed fouls at the lowest per minute rate (just 3.1 PF/40min) among those 31 players.

That ain't easy to do, and is why NBA head coaches repeatedly year after year voted him to the all-defensive team, 11 times in his career. A smart defender that was on the floor when his team needed him the most, not on the bench in foul trouble, that was still one of the best shot blockers in the league.

Playing a lot of minutes does not equate to having a high motor on defense.

Well, guess what? NBA head coaches thought differently than you.

Kareem's block %'s were never that great(based on what we have from 1974 on)

Oh no? Those 8 years he was annually all-defensive team Jabbar had the 5th highest per minute shot blocking rate (3.5 bs/40min) - only Tree Rollins, George Johnson, Harvey Catchings, and Elmore Smith were higher. Yet those first three committed fouls at twice the rate that Jabbar did, and Smith committed almost 50% more PF/min.

Do you even realize how hard it is to block shots while committing few fouls? In the history of the NBA among all players with 2000+ career blocks only 4 have a lower career per minute rate of fouls committed than Jabbar - Ben Wallace, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, and David Robinson.

I don't think saying he's a top 15 defensive player of all time is really underrating him here tbh. It's also harder to have defensive impact while being a volume scorer on the other end so I give him credit for that but in terms of strict defensive impact I think he's in the 15-20 range behind some guys who put more energy on that end.

penbeast0 wrote:...

Kareem in the 70s had good lateral mobility as well as his great length. He was more cerebral than Artis and more willing to get into people though less strong; something that got less and less true as you move into the 80s and he becomes a finesse player. His main weakness defensively was that he never really was a talker or quarterback on the floor like many great defensive centers. Then in his second decade, he got significantly slower and less physical (most players bulk up and lean more as they get older) and his defense declined a lot.

As I said in the Gilmore thread, Kareem was a great defender when young. Top 25 . . . maybe? Some of the bigs who did nothing but play defense (like a Tree Rollins) might have been better as well as the usual suspects and the best of the non-bigs though the foul difference v. Tree is an important point. He may rank higher for one or two year peak or if you give him credit for playing forever at an average NBA starter level.

He was a potential All-D defender for close to a decade but spent a lot of time in the league on high profile teams playing weaker defense after that so maybe people (maybe me too) remember late career Kareem and it colors their perception of early career Kareem.

Off topic note, Kareem said that Bob Lanier was one of the best defenders he ever faced in a recent article on BasketballNetwork.net. As for years, I've been dismissive of Lanier's defense, thought I should bring that up somewhere.

On a similar note, Kareem, who played with both, thought Oscar was a bit better and had a "more complete" game than Magic.

An aside, I personally I don't really think that historical all-defensive or All-NBA team selections are a great leg to support and argument with. We have more far information available to us now (game footage included) than anyone would ever have had available to them in this era. It's unlikely that these voters ever actually watched film of more than a few players, so naturally the big names and markets would get more votes.

That being said, somewhere between ATG and Elite is my feeling here. Just from the last few decades I'd probably take Draymond, Gobert, Davis, Leonard, Duncan, Howard, KG, Giannis over him. I certainly feel like his impact relative to other ATG centers is disproportionately on the offensive end. Maybe like a 70-30 split where most ATG centers are 50-50 or even 40-60 the other way.

But are we talking more peak, prime or career here? I'm kinda framing this around prime generally and not taking into account longevity, just average level over his best 4-5 seasons.

An aside, I personally I don't really think that historical all-defensive... team selections are a great leg to support and argument with.

Is that a fact.

We have more far information available to us now (game footage included) than anyone would ever have had available to them in this era.

We? Who is we? Do you mean you? And what information?

Ok, we'll bite.

Jabbar was named all-defensive 1st team for the first time in 1973-74. Others on the all-defensive first team that season were Dave DeBusschere, John Havlicek, Norm Van Lier, and Walt Frazier/Jerry Sloan.

Using whatever information you now have access to, why don't you tell all of us who should have been named to the all-defensive 1st team that year in 1973-74. Oh, and let us know what of this far more information you have access to that you use to make your decisions and what game footage you have access to to make your picks.

This should be interesting.

It's unlikely that these voters ever actually watched film of more than a few players

These all-defensive teams were voted for by the NBA head coaches of that time. You know, the guys that game planned against and watched game film of upcoming opponents (for as much film as they had back then).

You think you know more now about the defensive abilities of the NBA players that played 5 decades ago than the head coaches that watched and coached them at that very time?

Are you serious?

I don't think saying he's a top 15 defensive player of all time is really underrating him here tbh. It's also harder to have defensive impact while being a volume scorer on the other end

It is? What about Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond (5 straight seasons of 20+ pts/g), Willis Reed (also 5 straight seasons of 20+ pts/g), Dave Cowens, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, Alonzo Mourning, Patrick Ewing, Kevin Garnett, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Anthony Davis, Walt Frazier, Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, and I'm sure I am missing few others. Weren't these all great defenders that were also volume scorers?

penbeast0 wrote:Off topic note, Kareem said that Bob Lanier was one of the best defenders he ever faced in a recent article on BasketballNetwork.net. As for years, I've been dismissive of Lanier's defense, thought I should bring that up somewhere.

On a similar note, Kareem, who played with both, thought Oscar was a bit better and had a "more complete" game than Magic.

Lanier is rarely mentioned but stands out as having some very good years. The 70s had some gems, many of them, and it's absurd it is seen as the dark ages/worst decade in nba.

Oscar is underrated. He is really a top 20 player, as is West. They seem to get lower because of era but that's not right. Magic's impact is beyond his numbers and so it can't be easily said that he isn't better than Oscar but damn, it's very close. Oscar scored so well that he is a top 5 offensive player ever, he's just so big in that.

This is a very very interesting discussion, and we get near no discussion in here. Oh well, I can always post another Jordan vs Lebron thread, so we can get some talking.....

kcktiny wrote:

An aside, I personally I don't really think that historical all-defensive... team selections are a great leg to support and argument with.

Is that a fact.

We have more far information available to us now (game footage included) than anyone would ever have had available to them in this era.

We? Who is we? Do you mean you? And what information?

Ok, we'll bite.

Jabbar was named all-defensive 1st team for the first time in 1973-74. Others on the all-defensive first team that season were Dave DeBusschere, John Havlicek, Norm Van Lier, and Walt Frazier/Jerry Sloan.

Using whatever information you now have access to, why don't you tell all of us who should have been named to the all-defensive 1st team that year in 1973-74. Oh, and let us know what of this far more information you have access to that you use to make your decisions and what game footage you have access to to make your picks.

This should be interesting.

It's unlikely that these voters ever actually watched film of more than a few players

These all-defensive teams were voted for by the NBA head coaches of that time. You know, the guys that game planned against and watched game film of upcoming opponents (for as much film as they had back then).

You think you know more now about the defensive abilities of the NBA players that played 5 decades ago than the head coaches that watched and coached them at that very time?

Are you serious?

I don't think saying he's a top 15 defensive player of all time is really underrating him here tbh. It's also harder to have defensive impact while being a volume scorer on the other end

It is? What about Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond (5 straight seasons of 20+ pts/g), Willis Reed (also 5 straight seasons of 20+ pts/g), Dave Cowens, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, Alonso Mourning, Patrick Ewing, Kevin Garnett, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Anthony Davis, Walt Frazier, Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, and I'm sure I am missing few others. Weren't these all great defenders that were also volume scorers?

Yes, I think we know more now about these players now than their contemporaries did at the time, probably with the exclusion of their own coaches who watched them play every day. That doesn't invalidate these teams, but it does mean that they don't mean more than a reasonably well sourced ranking produced by a person today.

I'm not sure coaches took this superfluous vote that the NBA/media nagged them about doing all year very seriously, some certainly did, but we don't have any explanation/argument for any of these votes. For all we know some coaches just picked the guys they liked the most on other teams.

penbeast0 wrote:Off topic note, Kareem said that Bob Lanier was one of the best defenders he ever faced in a recent article on BasketballNetwork.net. As for years, I've been dismissive of Lanier's defense, thought I should bring that up somewhere.

On a similar note, Kareem, who played with both, thought Oscar was a bit better and had a "more complete" game than Magic.

Mmmm. Magic was a better playmaker than Oscar, but he never really showed the same level of volume scoring potence as Robertson. There's some trade off because of how much he did pass, even when Kareem had declined or was gone, of course, but scoring was a bit of an issue for Magic until the late 80s, after all. And Oscar was like a 25 PTS36 guy his whole career, destroying everyone with efficiency which wouldn't even be bad in today's environment. 60 years ago. So there's that to consider, for sure.

Top10alltime wrote:This is a very very interesting discussion, and we get near no discussion in here. Oh well, I can always post another Jordan vs Lebron thread, so we can get some talking.....

Could you please provide the question marks you have regarding Kareem's defense? What do you think he lacks and what were the concerns you saw on the tape? That could help me starting this discussion.

kcktiny wrote:

I don't think saying he's a top 15 defensive player of all time is really underrating him here tbh. It's also harder to have defensive impact while being a volume scorer on the other end

It is? What about Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond (5 straight seasons of 20+ pts/g), Willis Reed (also 5 straight seasons of 20+ pts/g), Dave Cowens, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, Alonso Mourning, Patrick Ewing, Kevin Garnett, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Anthony Davis, Walt Frazier, Michael Jordan, Gary Payton, and I'm sure I am missing few others. Weren't these all great defenders that were also volume scorers?

Yes it is. Sometimes I think you are just being contrarian for the sake of it on here. I didn't say its impossible to be both a volume scorer and all world defender, what I said is its harder to do that and maintain it over many years. A few guys managed to do it but then again there are also guys who more or less specialized on defense and who are thought of as top 10 defenders of all time. A lot of the guys you mentioned weren't even volume scorers or only were for a few years. Also, a lot of them didn't keep up their defense throughout their careers because they lose motor and focus more on offense. Anyhow I'm done, I can't discuss this with you anymore because you just making terrible arguments as some kind of 'got you' instead of actually reading what I write with an intent to understand it. It's tiresome and I don't want to do it anymore. I shouldn't have to spell all of this out for you.