RealGM

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 6:19 am**

Hi, I have a quick task for you guys

It's closely related to our recent peak project. I want you to put these centers peaks in these tiers:

MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world in most years

Weak MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world for weaker years

Top 10 player: player would be ranked inside top 10 for most years

Top 20 player: same but for top 20

Outside top 20

Please, do not go into hypotheticals about era translation, I only care about in-era impact here.

The list:

George Mikan
George Yardley
Neil Johnston
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Walt Bellamy
Zelmo Beaty
Nate Thurmond
Willis Reed
Wes Unseld
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Mel Daniels
Bob Lanier
Dave Cowens
Artis Gilmore
Bob McAdoo
Bill Walton
Moses Malone
Robert Parish
Jack Sikma
Ralph Sampson
Mark Eaton
Hakeem Olajuwon
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Rik Smits
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Ben Wallace
Yao Ming
Pau Gasol
Dwight Howard
Tyson Chandler
Marc Gasol
Anthony Davis
Karl Anthony-Towns
Rudy Gobert
Joel Embiid
Nikola Jokic
Bam Adebayo
Victor Wembanyama

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 9:24 am**

I'm still struggling through my forwards peaks list. But I made a short list for centers.

Center peaks

Haven't really begun to rank them, outside of the top 10.

The top 7 are in the All-Time tier.

Mikan, D Rob, Walton in the MVP tier.

Not sure if Ewing, Moses at 11/12 are in MVP or weak MVP tier yet.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 10:48 am**

Just to clarify: We would take the players peak and compare it to the era the player played in - and to the entire league and not just other centers?

So for example: I take 2003 Tim Duncan and think that version would compete for the #1 player in the league in most of the years Tim Duncan himself played in, so he's MVP level?

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 10:54 am**

-Luke- wrote:Just to clarify: We would take the players peak and compare it to the era the player played in - and to the entire league and not just other centers?

So for example: I take 2003 Tim Duncan and think that version would compete for the #1 player in the league in most of the years Tim Duncan himself played in, so he's MVP level?

Yes, exactly that. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 11:02 am**

Would need to look deeper into the other tiers, but I think

George Mikan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Nikola Jokic
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Walton

is my preliminary MVP level tier.

Robinson, Moses and Embiid look like good candidates for the tier below that.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 11:13 am**

Umm, why is George Yardley here on a Cs list? But anywho, off the top. Full season grades (sorry Joel).

MVPs:
Mikan
Russell
Wilt
KAJ
Walton
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Jokic

Weak MVPs:
Reed
Gilmore
Moses
Ewing
Robinson
Mourning
Howard
Davis
Embiid

Top 10
Johnston
Thurmond
Unseld
Lanier
Cowens
McAdoo
Sikma
Mutombo
B. Wallace
Gobert

Top 20
Bellamy
Beaty
Daniels
Parish
Sampson
Eaton
Smits
Yao
P. Gasol
Chandler
M. Gasol
KAT
Bam

Not Top 20
Wemby

Probably closer to a prime grade than a peak grade really, don't have each individual season memorized to that level.

Obviously a few guys in each tier I debated moving up or down. Could go the other way on another day.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 11:37 am**

eminence wrote:Umm, why is George Yardley here on a Cs list?

Cause I had a brain melt function and I meant his teammate Larry Foist :banghead:

Weak MVPs:
Reed
Gilmore
Moses
Ewing
Robinson
Mourning
Howard
Davis
Embiid

How would you order this tier?

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 11:38 am**

eminence wrote:Umm, why is George Yardley here on a Cs list? But anywho, off the top. Full season grades (sorry Joel).

MVPs:
Mikan
Russell
Wilt
KAJ
Walton
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Jokic

Weak MVPs:
Reed
Gilmore
Moses
Ewing
Robinson
Mourning
Howard
Davis
Embiid

Top 10
Johnston
Thurmond
Unseld
Lanier
Cowens
McAdoo
Sikma
Mutombo
B. Wallace
Gobert

Top 20
Bellamy
Beaty
Daniels
Parish
Sampson
Eaton
Smits
Yao
P. Gasol
Chandler
M. Gasol
KAT
Bam

Not Top 20
Wemby

Probably closer to a prime grade than a peak grade really, don't have each individual season memorized to that level.

Obviously a few guys in each tier I debated moving up or down. Could go the other way on another day.

I think I’d put them in the same tiers basically. Only exception, I’d move Johnston up a tier. He led the league in FG%, FTA, scoring multiple times.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 12:32 pm**

70sFan wrote:
eminence wrote:Umm, why is George Yardley here on a Cs list?

Cause I had a brain melt function and I meant his teammate Larry Foist

Weak MVPs:
Reed
Gilmore
Moses
Ewing
Robinson
Mourning
Howard
Davis
Embiid

How would you order this tier?

Foust - Top 10

Weak MVPs, first take order:
Moses
Embiid
Robinson
Howard
Ewing
Gilmore
Davis
Mourning
Reed

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 12:34 pm**

eminence wrote:
70sFan wrote:
eminence wrote:Umm, why is George Yardley here on a Cs list?

Cause I had a brain melt function and I meant his teammate Larry Foist

Weak MVPs:
Reed
Gilmore
Moses
Ewing
Robinson
Mourning
Howard
Davis
Embiid

How would you order this tier?

Foust - Top 10

Weak MVPs, first take order:
Moses
Embiid
Robinson
Howard
Ewing
Gilmore
Davis
Mourning
Reed

Interesting to see Robinson "only" third and Ewing lower than Howard. Thank you!

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 12:49 pm**

70sFan wrote:
eminence wrote:
70sFan wrote:Cause I had a brain melt function and I meant his teammate Larry Foist

How would you order this tier?

Foust - Top 10

Weak MVPs, first take order:
Moses
Embiid
Robinson
Howard
Ewing
Gilmore
Davis
Mourning
Reed

Interesting to see Robinson "only" third and Ewing lower than Howard. Thank you!

Embiid was the toughest one to place - I'm reasonably confident he's the 'best' player here, I'm even more confident he'll get injured at some point in a season. Anywhere from 1-9.

I do like Moses over Robinson at this point, but it's really close. Robinson anywhere from 1-5 wouldn't give me pause (bit tough to see the bottom 4 over him, Gilmore if you really love the ABA).

I'm a bit lower on Ewing because I don't think he peaked on both ends at the same time.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 1:50 pm**

eminence wrote:
70sFan wrote:
eminence wrote:
Foust - Top 10

Weak MVPs, first take order:
Moses
Embiid
Robinson
Howard
Ewing
Gilmore
Davis
Mourning
Reed

Interesting to see Robinson "only" third and Ewing lower than Howard. Thank you!

Embiid was the toughest one to place - I'm reasonably confident he's the 'best' player here, I'm even more confident he'll get injured at some point in a season. Anywhere from 1-9.

I do like Moses over Robinson at this point, but it's really close. Robinson anywhere from 1-5 wouldn't give me pause (bit tough to see the bottom 4 over him, Gilmore if you really love the ABA).

I'm a bit lower on Ewing because I don't think he peaked on both ends at the same time.

I think it's very uncommon to see someone having Moses over Robinson on this board, but I think it's perfectly fine.

I also see a lot of people being extremely high on peak Davis, but I think your ranking is fair. I'd probably put Reed above Mourning but it's close. Gilmore is tough to rank because of his very unfortunate Chicago period but I do believe he deserves to be that high and even can see him above Howard and Ewing.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2025 4:05 pm**

70sFan wrote:Hi, I have a quick task for you guys

It's closely related to our recent peak project. I want you to put these centers peaks in these tiers:

MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world in most years

Weak MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world for weaker years

Top 10 player: player would be ranked inside top 10 for most years

Top 20 player: same but for top 20

Outside top 20

Please, do not go into hypotheticals about era translation, I only care about in-era impact here.

The list:

George Mikan
George Yardley
Neil Johnston
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Walt Bellamy
Zelmo Beaty
Nate Thurmond
Willis Reed
Wes Unseld
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Mel Daniels
Bob Lanier
Dave Cowens
Artis Gilmore
Bob McAdoo
Bill Walton
Moses Malone
Robert Parish
Jack Sikma
Ralph Sampson
Mark Eaton
Hakeem Olajuwon
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Rik Smits
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Ben Wallace
Yao Ming
Pau Gasol
Dwight Howard
Tyson Chandler
Marc Gasol
Anthony Davis
Karl Anthony-Towns
Rudy Gobert
Joel Embiid
Nikola Jokic
Bam Adebayo
Victor Wembanyama

Not too into single year stuff and would take too much time to do anything I'd be happy with ...

Agree that in-era generally makes the most sense for meaningful comparisons ... that being said, and for the benefit of clarity/getting the responses you want ... labels like "top 20 player" would that be something like pro-rata and/or referring to a notional level of impact in-line with a top 20 player of the impact data era ... or more literally within-era? Because a top 20 player in an 8 team league, if he's 20th would be one of the two players making up the median starter whilst number 20 in a 30 team league is significantly closer to the top than to the middle starter.

Somewhat similarly with ABA players and ABA era players ... my instinct would be comparing across all major league pros of the time (perhaps "as if one larger league existed" would be one way frame it) rather than how dominant a Mel Daniels was versus the players in his league even though this requires being a little more speculative.

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2025 2:34 am**

If by peak it it one year peak, Ewing's best would be top 5 mvp every season of his career and top 3 most years. Robinson's best, looks like 95, is mvp most seasons (even with Jordan but a toss up). Moses similar with his best season, just monstrous.

Sorry to divert from subject for just a second - Does anyone know of a game (think that is probably the only way nowadays), likely one of the nba2ks, where you can import real players' in history career into one league and do a career from there?

Be a nice comparative thing.

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2025 3:43 am**

MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world in most years

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Walton
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Joel Embiid
Nikola Jokic

Weak MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world for weaker years

Artis Gilmore
Bob McAdoo
Moses Malone
Victor Wembanyama

Top 10 player: player would be ranked inside top 10:

Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Bob Lanier
Dave Cowens
Patrick Ewing
Alonzo Mourning
Ben Wallace
Yao Ming
Pau Gasol
Dwight Howard
Anthony Davis
Rudy Gobert

Top 20 player:

Walt Bellamy
Willis Reed
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Mel Daniels
Robert Parish
Jack Sikma
Ralph Sampson
Mark Eaton
Dikembe Mutombo
Rik Smits
Tyson Chandler
Karl Anthony-Towns
Bam Adebayo

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2025 5:24 am**

MiamiBulls wrote:MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world in most years

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Walton
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Joel Embiid
Nikola Jokic

Weak MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world for weaker years

Artis Gilmore
Bob McAdoo
Moses Malone
Victor Wembanyama

Top 10 player: player would be ranked inside top 10:

Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Bob Lanier
Dave Cowens
Patrick Ewing
Alonzo Mourning
Ben Wallace
Yao Ming
Pau Gasol
Dwight Howard
Anthony Davis
Rudy Gobert

Top 20 player:

Walt Bellamy
Willis Reed
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Mel Daniels
Robert Parish
Jack Sikma
Ralph Sampson
Mark Eaton
Dikembe Mutombo
Rik Smits
Tyson Chandler
Karl Anthony-Towns
Bam Adebayo

I think you have Jabbar twice, I assume the second mention is a mistake.

You seem to be quite low on Willis Reed, would you like to elaborate on that?

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2025 10:21 am**

MiamiBulls wrote:MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world in most years

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Walton
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Joel Embiid
Nikola Jokic

Weak MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world for weaker years

Artis Gilmore
Bob McAdoo
Moses Malone
Victor Wembanyama

Top 10 player: player would be ranked inside top 10:

Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Bob Lanier
Dave Cowens
Patrick Ewing
Alonzo Mourning
Ben Wallace
Yao Ming
Pau Gasol
Dwight Howard
Anthony Davis
Rudy Gobert

Top 20 player:

Walt Bellamy
Willis Reed
Mel Daniels
Robert Parish
Jack Sikma
Ralph Sampson
Mark Eaton
Dikembe Mutombo
Rik Smits
Tyson Chandler
Karl Anthony-Towns
Bam Adebayo

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2025 1:13 pm**

MiamiBulls wrote:MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world in most years

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Walton
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Joel Embiid
Nikola Jokic

Weak MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world for weaker years

Artis Gilmore
Bob McAdoo
Moses Malone
Victor Wembanyama

Top 10 player: player would be ranked inside top 10:

Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Bob Lanier
Dave Cowens
Patrick Ewing
Alonzo Mourning
Ben Wallace
Yao Ming
Pau Gasol
Dwight Howard
Anthony Davis
Rudy Gobert

Top 20 player:

Walt Bellamy
Willis Reed
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Mel Daniels
Robert Parish
Jack Sikma
Ralph Sampson
Mark Eaton
Dikembe Mutombo
Rik Smits
Tyson Chandler
Karl Anthony-Towns
Bam Adebayo

Add Mikan to the top tier of best in the world.

Posted: **Sun Sep 14, 2025 6:29 pm**

Off the top of my head without checking years closely,

MVP: Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Walton, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Jokic
Weak MVP: Thurmond, Reed, Moses, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, Howard, Davis, Embiid
Top 10: Johnston, Bellamy, Beaty, Unseld, Gilmore, Lanier, Cowens, McAdoo, Sikma, Mutombo, Wallace, Gobert
Top 20: Daniels, Parish, Yao, Gasol x2, Chandler, Towns, Bam, Wemby
Outside 20: Sampson, Eaton, Smits

I am also assuming this is not meant to be a comprehensive list of top centers because there are many more before we get to someone like Smits (Daugherty, Arvydas, Divac just from the 90s for example).

Posted: **Wed Sep 17, 2025 12:15 pm**

70sFan wrote:Hi, I have a quick task for you guys

It's closely related to our recent peak project. I want you to put these centers peaks in these tiers:

MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world in most years

Weak MVP level: player would compete for the best player in the world for weaker years

Top 10 player: player would be ranked inside top 10 for most years

Top 20 player: same but for top 20

Outside top 20

Please, do not go into hypotheticals about era translation, I only care about in-era impact here.

Glad you included this last sentence to clarify what you’re after, because the wording within your tier descriptions (e.g. “....in most years”) makes it sound like you DO want us to consider era translation.

Anyway…..
I didn't put a ton of thought into the placement for guys sort of on the margins (just went with my gut). Am willing to discuss placement or potentially switch some of them.
And I added Divac and Laimbeer.

MVP level
George Mikan (obviously; was the ‘GOAT’ level peak, at the time)
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Walton
Moses Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Joel Embiid
Nikola Jokic
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan

Weak MVP level
Bob McAdoo
Bob Lanier
Neil Johnston
Patrick Ewing
Dwight Howard
Alonzo Mourning
Artis Gilmore
Anthony Davis
Willis Reed

Top 10 player
Yao Ming
Pau Gasol
Rudy Gobert
Dave Cowens
Nate Thurmond
Dikembe Mutombo (barely; he’s almost more on the cusp between ‘top 10’ and ‘top 20’ tiers, and for MOST of his prime I think he falls in the lower category; but for peak I’ll give him the nod for top 10 [again: barely])
Marc Gasol
Larry Foust
Walt Bellamy
Zelmo Beaty
Robert Parish (I think he was at least a top 10 player in ‘81 and ‘82)
Mel Daniels
Wes Unseld** (**not at all sure; he feels on the cusp between top 10 and top 20; his MVP is one of the most odd in league history, imo. I think he might have been fringe top 10 for a year or two though)
Ben Wallace (probably just barely)
Karl Anthony-Towns
Victor Wembanyama (though notably absent for any potential playoffs)
Jack Sikma

Top 20 player
Bam Adebayo
Vlade Divac
Bill Laimbeer

Outside Top 20
Ralph Sampson
Mark Eaton
Rik Smits
Tyson Chandler (though Chandler feels the closest; he might have been a fringe top-20 player for a year or two)

RealGM

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